Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted January 11, 2020 Popular Post Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, california boy said: I think you missed my point. And I did understand you started to watch Messiah but decided not to because of the profanity. Of course you can choose what you watch and what you find to offensive to watch. I was just giving my opinion about the weight profanity played in what I choose to watch. Profanity is not instantly a deal breaker for me. I find it a minor importance unless it is just all the writer has to say. I think the Messiah has some provocative ideas that I find worth exploring that far outweighs the negative part the swearing brings in. And in fact, I understand why some characters swear. It tells us something about their character and the darkness that is in their lives. Even so, the Messiah still reaches out to them the same as he does the most righteous of followers. So for me, the swearing plays a part in the story being told. You miss all of that simply because you dismiss anything that has swearing in it. I am not criticizing you for making that choice. What I am doing is explaining why I made the choice I make, not only in this film bot all films that I watch. There is a lifetime of great stuff that one does not miss by being selective about profanity. All the vocal music of Palestrina, Josquin, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert, Mahler, operas, Lerner and Lowe, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Meredith Wilson, Sinatra, Crosby, Christian musicians, dramas, poetry, novels, short stories, and biographies, the scripture and writings of the prophets, and so much more. The occasional mild profanity can be understandable, but strings of the most profane words are unnecessary and gratuitous without adding anything of worth to the production. For example, this Messiah series. How many shs and fs does it take to make the point that someone is scared or surprised? None. It can be done in other more creative ways. I reserve the right to complain about foul language whatever the source. The Savior and his prophets warn against it. I try to follow them in my imperfect way as best I can. I’m sure you do the same. Edited January 12, 2020 by Bernard Gui 6
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 11, 2020 Posted January 11, 2020 32 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Language is a key proponent in expressing respect and disrespect. For example five year olds calling their teachers dumb-as, stupid bchs, and ahls. Certainly language is one way in which we disrespect others. But the sin is disrespect not the language. 32 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: In my experience it has not been debunked. Call me a science denier. The Savior and his prophets have warned us against it. I try to do what I can to follow them by repenting of any temptation to use profanity just like any other weakness. Except for Brigham who was a great fan of the s word. 32 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Where do I admit that? I have stated twice that I used profanity as a youth (despite a positive example set by my parents) and found it a difficult habit to break before I served a mission so I know. It is still occasionally a struggle to refrain, but nothing like it was back then when I took measures to stop the habit I don’t feel the need to get drunk to judge that it is not god for me. Good luck on your explorations. My apologies for the incorrect assumption. I should have gone back to check instead of relying on my memory of your posts. 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Certainly language is one way in which we disrespect others. But the sin is disrespect not the language. Except for Brigham who was a great fan of the s word. My apologies for the incorrect assumption. I should have gone back to check instead of relying on my memory of your posts. The Savior’s words contradict this assertion. Quote Matt 5:21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. dAn Aramaic term of contempt I am not Brother Brigham’s judge. I’ve never spoken with the man. When we see him, we can ask him about it. Edited January 12, 2020 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 10 hours ago, Tacenda said: This is horrible, I guess here in Davis County Utah it might be another world. I've never seen that in all my years of sub'g. I might just live in a bubble here in Utah. I sub'd in a few schools that I would see that in the halls etc. but very rarely, but not to the face, not sure how that would go over. I can see that a 5 year old might not know what they're doing though, and they've picked it up somewhere. And sometimes the parents might think it's funny or something. More and more young kids are manifesting extreme behavior problems, at least in our area. Maybe it’s the water. I think it has to do with screen time....kids and parents. The kids she and other teachers are dealing with know what they are doing. Increasing profanity is just one of the negative behaviors our teachers are seeing.
poptart Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 22 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: My mother was born in the LDS colonies in southern Colorado. She met my non-member dad in Los Alamos NM during WW 2. He was a soldier and she was a civilian worker. He joined the Church when I was about 11. Your mom must have been an incredible person for your father to do that. It's something I'd never do. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: The Savior’s words contradict this assertion. I am not Brother Brigham’s judge. I’ve never spoken with the man. When we see him, we can ask him about it. Jesus’ reported words echo exactly what I said. Unless you consider ‘you fool’ profanity. It is the anger and disrespect shown to another that is the sin. Not the actual words. 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Jesus’ reported words echo exactly what I said. Unless you consider ‘you fool’ profanity. It is the anger and disrespect shown to another that is the sin. Not the actual words. I disagree. Both what is in the heart and what is expressed are important. Note the meaning of the Aramaic word raca and the condemnation of those who speak it. There are many scripture that teach about proper speech. One of the best is In James. Quote 3:1Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, knowing that we who teach will receive the harsher judgment. 2For we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man and is also able to bridle his whole body also. 3If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, then we guide their whole bodies. 4Look at the ships. Although they are quite large and driven by strong winds, they are steered by a small rudder wherever the desire of the pilot steers them. 5Thus the tongue is a small member and boasts of great things. Look how such a small flame burns a large forest. 6And the tongue is a fire. The tongue makes itself an unrighteous world among our members: it defiles the entire body and sets on fire the cycle of human existence, and it is set on fire by hell. 7For every type of animal and bird, reptile and sea creature, is subdued and has been subdued by humankind. 8But no one is able to tame the tongue; it is a tireless evil, full of deadly poison. 9With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in God’s image. 10From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. These things should not be so, my brothers and sisters. 11Can a spring bring forth sweet and bitter water out of the same opening? Edited January 12, 2020 by Bernard Gui 2
Bernard Gui Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 2 hours ago, poptart said: Your mom must have been an incredible person for your father to do that. It's something I'd never do. Thank you. They were both incredible. I’m 73 and I appreciate them more and more every day that passes. I wish I had paid more attention to them when I had the chance.
poptart Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Thank you. They were both incredible. I’m 73 and I appreciate them more and more every day that passes. I wish I had paid more attention to them when I had the chance. Most nowadays are lucky to have one, families here are just vile anymore. Life is just pure suffering for many. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, poptart said: Most nowadays are lucky to have one, families here are just vile anymore. Life is just pure suffering for many. Too many are, that's true, but not all, and even if one is reared in horrible circumstances and is horribly mistreated, still, he can choose to say, "What happened to me is horrible and unfair, but I am where it stops. I choose to not perpetuate it by inflicting similar mistreatment on.my children." Edited January 12, 2020 by Kenngo1969 1
poptart Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 15 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Too many are, that's true, but not all, and even if one is reared in horrible circumstances and is horribly mistreated, still, he can choose to say, "What happened to me is horrible and unfair, but I am where it stops. I choose to not perpetuate it by inflicting similar mistreatment on.my children." To be fair, those who did come from those circumstaces really have no choice if they want a shot at life, just how it is. For me I just choose to stay among my own and keep to myself while I watch the world burn. It's not only there are too many, it's how horrible they're becoming. The USA has the highest out of wedlock birth rate in the world and family courts are a mess. I see kids here pulling stuff that mom would have skinned me alive for. Granted I hate children here so I do have an anti-child slant but still what I see out there scares me. At least when I was growing up I didn't have to worry about someone making the decision of what gender I was and forcing gender conversion on me. Add in the substance abuse and spike in alcoholism and suicide, it's a bad mix. That's another thing, seems like if you want to date someone here someone along the lines has a huge drug problem. The caucasian side here now has to deal with druggy inlaws, irony is because the grand daughter never listened to my grand aunt, now she's on marraige no 3 I think and has druggie baby momma drama with the step kid, the new husband is no prize either. I'll say, LGBT folks have drug issues but at least we don't have the kids to deal with, it makes me sick to my stomach the stuff parents here expose their kids to that. I can talk to my cousins who go to Japan a lot and for al that countries faults they don't have any of that there, the parents still seem to do their job.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) I grant you that those who choose to break the cycle may be few and far between, but by no means are they nonexistent: http://www.davepelzer.com Edited January 12, 2020 by Kenngo1969
poptart Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 11 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I grant you that those who choose to break the cycle may be few and far between, but by no means are they nonexistent: http://www.davepelzer.com I'm more of a jack london/walden kind of guy, I prefer to be left in quiet away from large cities.
california boy Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 2 hours ago, poptart said: To be fair, those who did come from those circumstaces really have no choice if they want a shot at life, just how it is. For me I just choose to stay among my own and keep to myself while I watch the world burn. It's not only there are too many, it's how horrible they're becoming. The USA has the highest out of wedlock birth rate in the world and family courts are a mess. I see kids here pulling stuff that mom would have skinned me alive for. Granted I hate children here so I do have an anti-child slant but still what I see out there scares me. At least when I was growing up I didn't have to worry about someone making the decision of what gender I was and forcing gender conversion on me. Add in the substance abuse and spike in alcoholism and suicide, it's a bad mix. That's another thing, seems like if you want to date someone here someone along the lines has a huge drug problem. The caucasian side here now has to deal with druggy inlaws, irony is because the grand daughter never listened to my grand aunt, now she's on marraige no 3 I think and has druggie baby momma drama with the step kid, the new husband is no prize either. I'll say, LGBT folks have drug issues but at least we don't have the kids to deal with, it makes me sick to my stomach the stuff parents here expose their kids to that. I can talk to my cousins who go to Japan a lot and for al that countries faults they don't have any of that there, the parents still seem to do their job. Just to correct you, the USA is not even close to having the highest number of out of wedlock births. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I disagree. Both what is in the heart and what is expressed are important. Note the meaning of the Aramaic word raca and the condemnation of those who speak it. There are many scripture that teach about proper speech. One of the best is In James. Again the lack of condemnation of profanity. Unless you think cursing someone requires profanity or that profanity’s only use is to curse someone. see here for a discussion of raca: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:22#Insults Edited January 12, 2020 by SeekingUnderstanding
poptart Posted January 12, 2020 Posted January 12, 2020 1 hour ago, california boy said: Just to correct you, the USA is not even close to having the highest number of out of wedlock births. Uhh, here's something a bit more up to date friend. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/12/12/u-s-children-more-likely-than-children-in-other-countries-to-live-with-just-one-parent/ https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/us-has-most-single-parent-households-of-any-nation-study https://www.theblaze.com/news/america-highest-rate-single-parent-households Pew research so take it for what it's worth. I like them.
Bernard Gui Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Again the lack of condemnation of profanity. Unless you think cursing someone requires profanity or that profanity’s only use is to curse someone. see here for a discussion of raca: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:22#Insults Not interested in splitting hairs over profanity. I can’t think of an example of the Savior approving or commending profanity, can you? See here for another discussion of raca.... Quote Matthew 5:22 is the only passage in the Bible where the term raca is used. Raca comes from the Aramaic term reqa. It was a derogatory expression meaning “empty-headed,” insinuating a person’s stupidity or inferiority. It was an offensive name used to show utter contempt for another person. Jesus warned that the use of such a word to describe someone was tantamount to murder and deserving of the severest punishment of the law.... The first-century Jews recognized that “anyone who murders will be subject to judgment” (Matthew 5:21), but Jesus warns that even calling another person insulting names such as “raca” is sinful. Murder begins in the heart, and epithets such as “raca” are signs that there is hatred lurking within. The hatred that causes one person to hurl insults is the same hatred that causes another to commit murder. The attitude of the heart is the same, and it’s this attitude that makes a person morally guilty before God.Jesus not only warns us against expressing unrighteous anger, which can lead to murder, but clearly commands that disparaging denunciations and name-calling be avoided. Such abusive words reveal the true intents of one’s heart and mind for which we will be held in judgment. https://www.gotquestions.org/raca.html Edited January 13, 2020 by Bernard Gui
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Not interested in splitting hairs over profanity. I can’t think of an example of the Savior approving or commending profanity, can you? Splitting hairs? You provide multiple scripture references proving my point (it’s the disrespect that’s bad not the language), and I’m splitting hairs? Really? Appeal to silence? I can’t think of a single utterance from Jesus on homosexuality, so surely it’s okay right? What did Jesus say on polygamy? Nothing. It’s definitely bad. Quote See here for another discussion of raca.... Raca is the equivalent of calling someone an idiot. I get it. It’s not profanity. Edited January 13, 2020 by SeekingUnderstanding
Calm Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Raca is the equivalent of calling someone an idiot. I get it. It’s not profanity. There may be debate about that. From wiki: Quote The word Raca is original to the Greek manuscript; however, it is not a Greek word. The most common view is that it is a reference to the Aramaic word reka, which literally means "empty one", but probably meant "empty headed," or "foolish." Scholars seem divided on how grievous an insult it was. Hill feels it was very,[11] France thinks it was a minor slur.[12] The word translated as fool is the Greek moros, which has a similar meaning to the Aramaic reka. However moros also was used to mean godless, and thus could be much more severe a term than reka. The reading of godless can explain why the punishment is more severe.[13] Jesus uses the term himself in Matthew 23:17 when he is deriding the Pharisees. This verse has also recently become part of the debate over the New Testament view of homosexuality. Some scholars have argued that racacan mean effeminate, and was a term of abuse for homosexuals. Similarly moros can also refer to a homosexual aggressor; as Genesis 19:4-6. From Semitic cognates Warren Johansson argued that the word was an Aramaic pejorative, similar to the English words faggot or fairy. By these interpretations Jesus could be specifically condemning homophobia. Most scholars reject this view, considering it more likely that the terms were meant as general insults, rather than specific attacks on homosexuals. See also the Bible and homosexuality.[14][15] We might not define “moron” as profanity, but it might be viewed as that by that culture. Not saying this is definitive, but the few sites I have visited on this suggest it is a possibility. Quote Raca denotes a certain looseness of life and manners, while fool, in the same passage, means a downright wicked and reprobate person... the inner feeling of anger (orgizomenos), to be punished by the local or provincial court (te krisei, "the judgment"); (2) anger breaking forth into an expression of scorn (Raca), to be punished by the Sanhedrin (to sunedrio, "the council"); (3) anger culminating in abusive and defamatory language (More), to be punished by the fire of Gehenna. https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/raca/ Edited January 13, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) While not specific to Jesus, the NT does counsel against use of obscenity and coarseness. Ephesians 5:4 Quote Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. Edited January 13, 2020 by Calm 1
Calm Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Unless you think cursing someone requires profanity or that profanity’s only use is to curse someone. Do you see the use of “God” and other names for deity as an expletive/profanity condemned or not mention in New Testament?
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 37 minutes ago, Calm said: Do you see the use of “God” and other names for deity as an expletive/profanity condemned or not mention in New Testament? I have no idea if it’s talked about in the New Testament. I never claimed one way or another. Bernard appealed to the scriptures not me. I just don’t view the references shared as a condemnation of profanity, but rather a condemnation of verbally abusing another. The profanity to date in this thread being discussed has not included the flippant use of deity, and I have not expressed an opinion one way or another (though I personally do not swear by God).
Calm Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 4 hours ago, poptart said: Uhh, here's something a bit more up to date friend. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/12/12/u-s-children-more-likely-than-children-in-other-countries-to-live-with-just-one-parent/ https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/us-has-most-single-parent-households-of-any-nation-study https://www.theblaze.com/news/america-highest-rate-single-parent-households Pew research so take it for what it's worth. I like them. Out of wedlock contributes to single parents, but so does marriage and divorce. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: We might not define “moron” as profanity, but it might be viewed as that by that culture. Not saying this is definitive, but the few sites I have visited on this suggest it is a possibility. Relying on a possibility makes it a rather weak point IMO.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 46 minutes ago, Calm said: While not specific to Jesus, the NT does counsel against use of obscenity and coarseness. Ephesians 5:4 There we go! Don’t forget “foolish talk.” Whatever that means.
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