Netflix- messiah

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/7/2020 at 9:31 AM, bluebell said:

I had to give up on the Expanse for this new season.  I'm tired of the random F words and sex scenes that come out of no where.  

Sister Gui and I started watching Messiah last night. Interesting, but not sure we’ll continue. So many f and sh words, even in Hebrew and Arabic! After a while I couldn’t take it seriously. It got so ridiculous I was laughing at each utterance. Why do they have to do that? It could have been good. l might stick to Handel. 🤬
 

Has anyone watched The Book of Luke?

Edited January 9, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sister Gui and I started watching Messiah last night. Interesting, but not sure we’ll continue. So many f and sh words, even in Hebrew and Arabic! After a while I couldn’t take it seriously. It got so ridiculous I was laughing at each utterance. Why do they have to do that? It could have been good. 🤬

It's getting really bad.  Almost every show has the F word throughout it, regardless of the subject matter.  It always makes me wonder what has gone wrong in the writers' lives that they think this is how adults are supposed to talk to each other.

It's like they think 'Look!  I'm adulting!  I can say whatever words I want now!"  Like a caricature of what being grown up looks like, written by a teenager.

Edited January 9, 2020 by bluebell

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/7/2020 at 9:55 AM, smac97 said:

D&C 88 seems pretty relevant:

• "{T}he earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his facem and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down..." (v. 87).
• "{T}he testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand" (v. 89).
• "{T}he testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds" (v. 90).
• "{A}ll things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people" (v. 91).
• "And angels shall fly through the midst of heaven, crying with a loud voice, sounding the trump of God, saying: Prepare ye, prepare ye, O inhabitants of the earth; for the judgment of our God is come. Behold, and lo, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him" (v. 92).
• "And immediately there shall appear a great sign in heaven, and all people shall see it together" (v. 93).
• "And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it" (v. 94).
• "And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled" (v. 95).
• "And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him" (v. 96).
• "And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven" (v. 97).

It has long been interesting to me that the Church carries these predictions in its canonized scriptures, but how often are they addressed in General Conference?

Folks like Hope_for_Things like to claim that the Church trades in fear.  That "{f}ear is a good motivator."  And yet the Church doesn't really avail itself to "end times" alarmism.  The instruction we receive in General Conference is measured and calm, and addresses prosaic yet important issues we face in our day-to-day lives, while also encouraging us to pursue spiritual goals and objectives.

I'm glad of that.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Reading from the Book of Revelation in Sunday School and home evening when he was young contributed to my son Talentissimo’s severe anxiety problems. We did not find this out until just recently.

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's getting really bad.  Almost every show has the F word throughout it, regardless of the subject matter.  It always makes me wonder what has gone wrong in the writers' lives that they think this is how adults are supposed to talk to each other.

It's like they think 'Look!  I'm adulting!  I can say whatever words I want now!"  Like a caricature of what being grown up looks like, written by a teenager.

I agree completely. Rather than finding the words to express emotions, they just throw in this puerile stuff somehow thinking it’s sophisticated? It’s really shoddy, lazy, and unimaginative writing. No way you or I could get away with that in a workplace or social setting. I don’t like to be around when people spew it. The ubiquity has dulled its edginess, and now it’s just funny. I laugh at it.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[smac97]

Yes, it seems like those who choose to consume much of what Hollywood is putting out are forced to endure the cumulative effects of the neuroses and dysfunctions of its writers, producers, directors, etc.  This likely involves them working through a lot of "riotous living," toxic/dysfunctional/non-existent relationships, despair, and so on.

The Thirteenth Article of Faith states: If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

We are living in a time in which this has become surprisingly easy to do.  With the advent of streaming media context, we can pick and choose only the better parts of what the media/entertainment industries have to offer.  There are a handful of current TV shows I watch.  And a handful of movies I go to in a given year.  And a very few new songs to which I listen.  But otherwise, I have no need at all to subject myself to the repellant stuff.  There is far more worthwhile media content out there than I have time to consume anyway, particularly given the many other ways I can and should spend my limited free time (in family activities, exercising, serving and socializing with others, studying the Gospel, going to the temple, meditating, reading, etc.).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 9, 2020 by smac97

[HappyJackWagon]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I agree completely. Rather than finding the words to express emotions, they just throw in this puerile stuff somehow thinking it’s sophisticated? It’s really shoddy, lazy, and unimaginative writing. No way you or I could get away with that in a workplace or social setting. I don’t like to be around when people spew it. The ubiquity has dulled its edginess, and now it’s just funny. I laugh at it.

Bad language can be used to great comic effect (Just ask Ryan Reynolds) but it does get pretty nuts. Sadly, MANY people really speak that way in every day life. Even in a white collar workplace I'm shocked by the mouths on people. I think it really is "normal" for many people.

53 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes, it seems like those who choose to consume much of what Hollywood is putting out are forced to endure the cumulative effects of the neuroses and dysfunctions of its writers, producers, directors, etc.  This likely involves them working through a lot of "riotous living," toxic/dysfunctional/non-existent relationships, despair, and so on.

The Thirteenth Article of Faith states: If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

We are living in a time in which this has become surprisingly easy to do.  With the advent of streaming media context, we can pick and choose only the better parts of what the media/entertainment industries have to offer.  There are a handful of current TV shows I watch.  And a handful of movies I go to in a given year.  And a very few new songs to which I listen.  But otherwise, I have no need at all to subject myself to the repellant stuff.  There is far more worthwhile media content out there than I have time to consume anyway, particularly given the many other ways I can and should spend my limited free time (in family activities, exercising, serving and socializing with others, studying the Gospel, going to the temple, meditating, reading, etc.).

Thanks,

-Smac

It's interesting to think of virtuous, lovely, or of good report as a spectrum and not a black and white- this is lovely- this is not. In some cases it's easy to lump media into one group or the other, but in other cases it is much more complicated than that. For example, I find Messiah to be a net good despite it's less virtuous moments of language etc. Each person will have their own threshold for what is and isn't acceptable/worthy/praiseworthy, but it does get complicated when there are elements of both good and bad.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Bad language can be used to great comic effect (Just ask Ryan Reynolds) but it does get pretty nuts. Sadly, MANY people really speak that way in every day life. Even in a white collar workplace I'm shocked by the mouths on people. I think it really is "normal" for many people.

Yep. 

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's interesting to think of virtuous, lovely, or of good report as a spectrum and not a black and white- this is lovely- this is not. In some cases it's easy to lump media into one group or the other, but in other cases it is much more complicated than that.

Yep.

Many years ago, while I was in law school, I awoke to find my wife already up with our baby.  She had been nursing him, and turned on the TV to find a broadcast of The Shawshank Redemption.  It was on TBS, so a lot of the profanity was edited out.  The movie was ending just as I entered the room.  My wife turned to me and had tears in her eyes.  She found the film deeply moving and poignant.

Did the film also contain a lot of profanity?  Yes.  She probably would not have continued watching it had the show not been edited for its more objectionable content.  

She had never watched an R-rated movie before (not even an edited-for-content one).  She asked me if it was rated R, and I said "I think so, yes."  She responded with something like "Well, it was really good."

And she was right.

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

For example, I find Messiah to be a net good despite it's less virtuous moments of language etc. Each person will have their own threshold for what is and isn't acceptable/worthy/praiseworthy, but it does get complicated when there are elements of both good and bad.

Well put.  For me and mine, we try to keep that threshold pretty high.  And in the age of endless viewing options via streaming media, and even with editing options (VidAngel), we have no shortage of "praiseworthy" things to watch and enjoy.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

On 1/7/2020 at 11:54 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

There is a new series on Netflix called Messiah. It's essentially a modern take on what it might be like if a Messiah figure came on the scene in today's world. Even though this figure does nothing dangerous or even inappropriate, the level of fear generated because of the numbers of people who begin following him get the attention of the CIA, Mossad, etc. It's really quite fascinating to see the depiction of both faith and fear generated after this Messiah performs miracles, and it strikes me as a fairly accurate portrayal of the different types of human responses we might expect to see. It's a fairly intense/suspenseful show and there is some language. But it is fascinating.

On top of the general concept of a Messiah figure into today's geo-political landscape, there is an LDS President of the United States who wrestles with the politics and religious elements of the situation. At one point the President is speaking to this rogue Messiah, incredulous at what he is being asked to do, and the messiah asks him "Do you not believe in the coming of One Mighty and Strong?"  He gets the President to think about more than just the politics.

Not only does it make me stop and think about how I might respond to a modern Messiah, but the political fear generated helps me appreciate a little bit more what it must have been like for the religious and political leaders of Jesus' day.

Has anyone else seen this? Thoughts?

I have one episode left. I was surprised by an LDS president and the one might and string comment as well/

[pogi]

43 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I have one episode left. I was surprised by an LDS president and the one might and string comment as well/

It is an interesting reference to our doctrine as it is not a reference to the Messiah or second coming.  I don't know if that was an intentional clue by the show, or just a misunderstanding of our doctrine. 

Quote

 

D&C 85:7-8

7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whos names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of law of God;

8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

 

Quote

 

The First Presidency (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund)

Perhaps no other passage in the revelations of the Lord, in this dispensation, has given rise to so much speculation as this one. Also, it has been used by vain and foolish men to bolster up their vagaries of speculation, and in some cases their pretensions to great power and high positions they were to attain in the Church. In a word, some have made claims that they were the particular individual mentioned in the revelation, the "one mighty and strong, holding the sceptre of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints."

 

There have been countless people who have claimed to be the mighty and strong one, all unsavory people, murderers, etc. Here is a good list, so the guy on the show is not in very good company!

I appreciated how they respected President Nelson's wishes and avoided use of the term "Mormon", and used "Latter-day Saint" instead.  That is rare to see in the media. 

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Each person will have their own threshold for what is and isn't acceptable/worthy/praiseworthy, but it does get complicated when there are elements of both good and bad.

 Which is life in general (good and bad). I completely understand people's different thresholds for language, sexuality, etc. And those thresholds can also change throughout one's life. When I was a young bride married into a more worldly family than the one I knew, I was easily shocked at the language that was spoken in the (car) business and sometimes even at home. Measures were taken to clean it up with some success (its hard to enforce language standards at work but this was solved over time with some employee turn over). Decades later, I find that my work in academia exposes me to the same language. It really sometimes is just "the way they talk" and my ability to block it out has generally increased. One thing is for sure, cursing is a human, cross-cultural behavior-probably as old as language itself, and it will never go away. There are some fun, interesting studies on it.

[katherine the great]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I appreciated how they respected President Nelson's wishes and avoided use of the term "Mormon", and used "Latter-day Saint" instead.  That is rare to see in the media. 

I was under the impression that "Latter-day Saint" is also unacceptable. 

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I was under the impression that "Latter-day Saint" is also unacceptable. 

Latter-day Saint - good, LDS - bad.

[Metis_LDS]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Latter-day Saint - good, LDS - bad.

Is somebody saying I'm bad.  Well maybe a little only some times.

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Metis_LDS said:

Is somebody saying I'm bad.  Well maybe a little only some times.

Well, maybe we are all a little bad for posting on and thus supporting Mormondialogue.org

[Metis_LDS]

37 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

When I was a young bride married into a more worldly family than the one I knew, I was easily shocked at the language that was spoken in the (car) business and sometimes even at home. Measures were taken to clean it up with some success (its hard to enforce language standards at work but this was solved over time with some employee turn over). Decades later, I find that my work in academia exposes me to the same language. It really sometimes is just "the way they talk" and my ability to block it out has generally increased. One thing is for sure, cursing is a human, cross-cultural behavior-probably as old as language itself, and it will never go away. There are some fun, interesting studies on it.

Swearing is not as much fun when more common.  As a boy growing up in between two different cultures English and French Canadian it was down right strange.  Most of the English swear words were sexually based and most of the French Canadian swear words were religiously based.   I preferred the English words.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Metis_LDS
spelling

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Sister Gui and I started watching Messiah last night. Interesting, but not sure we’ll continue. So many f and sh words, even in Hebrew and Arabic! After a while I couldn’t take it seriously. It got so ridiculous I was laughing at each utterance. Why do they have to do that? It could have been good. l might stick to Handel. 🤬
 

Has anyone watched The Book of Luke?

You realize that’s just how most of the world talks right? And that no swear words just sounds sanitized? Even prophet Brigham Young was a fan of profanity:

https://www.standard.net/opinion/brigham-young-biography-portrays-a-great-leader-and-an-unpleasant/article_ae9c5f4d-3ff0-5f05-8266-23605e7b8f36.html

[pogi]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's getting really bad.  Almost every show has the F word throughout it, regardless of the subject matter.  It always makes me wonder what has gone wrong in the writers' lives that they think this is how adults are supposed to talk to each other.

It's like they think 'Look!  I'm adulting!  I can say whatever words I want now!"  Like a caricature of what being grown up looks like, written by a teenager.

In some cases, I agree, the use of poor language can be a poor reflection on the writer - they insert themselves too much into the story with their own crass language and inability to effectively express an idea.  In other cases, as with this series, I don't personally feel it is a poor reflection on the writer as much as it is a poor reflection on society.  If the intent is to accurately portray real life, then they nailed it.  In real life, not everyone uses good effective language, and not everyone uses foul language either.  If you notice, not every character in the series uses good/bad language.  There is a good mix (one sign of a good writer).   I personally feel it was used effectively in character building to identify the nature of characters as unsavory in general, or under acute stress, etc.  Many characters in the story never swear at all including the Later-day Saint President, the main character, the young Muslim follower, the pastor, several others too I think.  It is mostly the Israeli intelligence guy, with a little here and there from other characters as well.  I personally feel it is poor writing when there is no bad language in a plot like this one. It feels sanitized and unnatural - the writer is inserting himself too much into the dialogue on the other extreme of the spectrum.  But I can understand how it might be a distraction for some.  I am definitely less affected by it in general. Probably because I used to be a foul moth back in my skater days.  My wife would argue that I still am.

Edited January 9, 2020 by pogi

[Nacho2dope]

I

On 1/7/2020 at 9:54 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

There is a new series on Netflix called Messiah. It's essentially a modern take on what it might be like if a Messiah figure came on the scene in today's world. Even though this figure does nothing dangerous or even inappropriate, the level of fear generated because of the numbers of people who begin following him get the attention of the CIA, Mossad, etc. It's really quite fascinating to see the depiction of both faith and fear generated after this Messiah performs miracles, and it strikes me as a fairly accurate portrayal of the different types of human responses we might expect to see. It's a fairly intense/suspenseful show and there is some language. But it is fascinating.

On top of the general concept of a Messiah figure into today's geo-political landscape, there is an LDS President of the United States who wrestles with the politics and religious elements of the situation. At one point the President is speaking to this rogue Messiah, incredulous at what he is being asked to do, and the messiah asks him "Do you not believe in the coming of One Mighty and Strong?"  He gets the President to think about more than just the politics.

Not only does it make me stop and think about how I might respond to a modern Messiah, but the political fear generated helps me appreciate a little bit more what it must have been like for the religious and political leaders of Jesus' day.

Has anyone else seen this? Thoughts?

I just started this last night, I am about halfway through the first episode. It sounds like it could be an interesting idea for a show. I have often thought how everyone will react when Christ returns. Thanks for sharing!

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, pogi said:

In some cases, I agree, the use of poor language can be a poor reflection on the writer - they insert themselves too much into the story with their own crass language and inability to effectively express an idea.  In other cases, as with this series, I don't personally feel it is a poor reflection on the writer as much as it is a poor reflection on society.  If the intent is to accurately portray real life, then they nailed it.  In real life, not everyone uses good effective language, and not everyone uses foul language either.  If you notice, not every character in the series uses good/bad language.  There is a good mix (one sign of a good writer).   I personally feel it was used effectively in character building to identify the nature of characters as unsavory in general, or under acute stress, etc.  Many characters in the story never swear at all including the Later-day Saint President, the main character, the young Muslim follower, the pastor, several others too I think.  It is mostly the Israeli intelligence guy, with a little here and there from other characters as well.  I personally feel it is poor writing when there is no bad language in a plot like this one. It feels sanitized and unnatural - the writer is inserting himself too much into the dialogue on the other extreme of the spectrum.  But I can understand how it might be a distraction for some.  I am definitely less affected by it in general. Probably because I used to be a foul moth back in my skater days.  My wife would argue that I still am.

I've only seen the one episode so far so I don't have much of an opinion yet on this show and swearing.  It was annoying to hear the Israeli guards use the F word so many times in a few second.  To me that scene came across like a lazy stereotype.

Guess I'll see how everything progresses.

[Garden Girl]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

Many years ago, while I was in law school, I awoke to find my wife already up with our baby.  She had been nursing him, and turned on the TV to find a broadcast of The Shawshank Redemption.  It was on TBS, so a lot of the profanity was edited out.  The movie was ending just as I entered the room.  My wife turned to me and had tears in her eyes.  She found the film deeply moving and poignant.

Did the film also contain a lot of profanity?  Yes.  She probably would not have continued watching it had the show not been edited for its more objectionable content.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac... That is one of my favorite films... it actually contains much less profanity than more recent films but it does also have violence and subject matter that make it "R"... a prison film after all... I purchased the DVD and watch it every now and then, and consider it a "classic."   I don't know of anyone who watches it that isn't touched with the overall story.

GG

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

Smac... That is one of my favorite films... it actually contains much less profanity than more recent films but it does also have violence and subject matter that make it "R"... a prison film after all... I purchased the DVD and watch it every now and then, and consider it a "classic."   I don't know of anyone who watches it that isn't touched with the overall story.

GG

Same here, love Shawshank Redemption!

I happen to stumble across a movie a while back that has a few racial slurs, and possibly the f-word maybe can't remember, and violence, but it was so touching too at the same time, absolutely loved it called "Gran Torino". And the old man (Clint Eastwood) in it reminded me of my dad sort of. It featured the Hmong people and they had such an amazing culture, and there was a good moral to the story. If there isn't a good moral to it, I don't like R's much or any movie for the most part.

[Garden Girl]

35 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Same here, love Shawshank Redemption!

I happen to stumble across a movie a while back that has a few racial slurs, and possibly the f-word maybe can't remember, and violence, but it was so touching too at the same time, absolutely loved it called "Gran Torino". And the old man (Clint Eastwood) in it reminded me of my dad sort of. It featured the Hmong people and they had such an amazing culture, and there was a good moral to the story. If there isn't a good moral to it, I don't like R's much or any movie for the most part.

Gran Torino... another favorite of mine... Clint Eastwood was wonderful... Yes, there was profanity, but somehow I was able to put it in context.  I appreciated learning about the Hmong culture because they relocated to the U.S. in the Viet Nam era.   Oddly, it was a very moral film, profanity and all...

GG

[katherine the great]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

Latter-day Saint - good, LDS - bad.

That’s good to know. I was thinking about this quote by President Nelson emphasizing the name of Jesus Christ:

”Our revised style guide is helpful. It states: “In the first reference, the full name of the Church is preferred: ‘The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.’ When a shortened [second] reference is needed, the terms ‘the Church’ or the ‘Church of Jesus Christ’ are encouraged. The ‘restored Church of Jesus Christ’ is also accurate and encouraged.”
If someone should ask, “Are you a Mormon?” you could reply, “If you are asking if I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, yes, I am!”
If someone asks, “Are you a Latter-day Saint?” you might respond, “Yes, I am. I believe in Jesus Christ and am a member of His restored Church.””

[BlueDreams]

11 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Bad language can be used to great comic effect (Just ask Ryan Reynolds) but it does get pretty nuts. Sadly, MANY people really speak that way in every day life. Even in a white collar workplace I'm shocked by the mouths on people. I think it really is "normal" for many people.

It's interesting to think of virtuous, lovely, or of good report as a spectrum and not a black and white- this is lovely- this is not. In some cases it's easy to lump media into one group or the other, but in other cases it is much more complicated than that. For example, I find Messiah to be a net good despite it's less virtuous moments of language etc. Each person will have their own threshold for what is and isn't acceptable/worthy/praiseworthy, but it does get complicated when there are elements of both good and bad.

I grew the same sense from my brother who still hesitates to cuss around me because he sees me as the good latter-day saint....even though i cuss from time to time. Particularly at work (tends to express certain emotions well for people)

It can annoy me when it’s used too much though in shows. It’s oddly hit or miss for me. Some shows I tolerate it because I like the plot enough to bare through it. Some it seems to fit enough and used well enough that its not really distracting for me (that’s where the Messiah is fitting currently). And others I just can’t. A recent Scifi i had to stop because i swear 2/3 of the “dialogue” was cussing.

 

i’ve made it to episode 7 and really am enjoying it, Btw! I like that it’s kept me guessing and that guessing has made me feel more empathetic to the characters as they try to figure him out as well. The one that stuck with me the most was the one with the dog and the dialogue around who he was there for. It had me thinking of the purposes that these people had and we all have with God and how that often diverges from what God actually wants. 
 

With luv, 

bd 
 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

You realize that’s just how most of the world talks right? And that no swear words just sounds sanitized? Even prophet Brigham Young was a fan of profanity:

https://www.standard.net/opinion/brigham-young-biography-portrays-a-great-leader-and-an-unpleasant/article_ae9c5f4d-3ff0-5f05-8266-23605e7b8f36.html

My mom taught me that even if everyone does something wrong that doesn’t make it right.

Brother Brigham notwithstanding, if the book correctly portrays him. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Bernard Gui