Calm Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I have no idea if it’s talked about in the New Testament. I never claimed one way or another. Bernard appealed to the scriptures not me. I just don’t view the references shared as a condemnation of profanity, but rather a condemnation of verbally abusing another. The profanity to date in this thread being discussed has not included the flippant use of deity, and I have not expressed an opinion one way or another (though I personally do not swear by God). The scriptures are pretty heavy imo against the profane use of deity. Part of Ten Commandments. I agree that Jesus emphasized the intent of the language more than the specific wording, but imo he was not dismissive of the acts that usually expressed that intent simply because he taught one should be concerned about intent. Language does change over time. I use a couple of words on occasion because they weren’t ‘swears’ where I grew up in how they were used, but my husband grew up where they were. I think we need to recognize the changes and focus on teaching respect without getting too hung up about words that are at the point of transitioning to more or less meaningless value. I have no problem pushing for no use of those that are still seen as extreme in educational and other areas where there is a mix of communities that use language differently and teaching kids that recognizing differences and respecting them includes avoiding language that disturbs those one is with.
Calm Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: There we go! Don’t forget “foolish talk.” Whatever that means. Quote Foolish talking. From a compound of moros and lego; silly talk, i.e. Buffoonery. https://www.biblehub.com/ephesians/5-4.htm Quote Second, Paul condemns "foolish talk." This Greek term is mōrologia, a combination of two more common terms: moros (stupid) and lego(speaking). This makes the meaning fairly clear. Paul's idea seems to be talk which is idiotic, absurd, or blatantly meaningless. This probably overlaps with the "filthiness" and "crude joking" also mentioned in this verse. In addition, "foolish talk" might include things like "trash talk," speaking in ignorance (Proverbs 18:13), or speaking without self-control (Proverbs 12:16; 29:20). https://www.bibleref.com/Ephesians/5/Ephesians-5-4.html Edited January 13, 2020 by Calm
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, Calm said: The scriptures are pretty heavy imo against the profane use of deity. Part of Ten Commandments. It’s my understanding that some view the idea of taking the name of God in vain differently than the common usage, but I have no stake in defending the position. Again I have not appealed to the scriptures in any way to substantiate any argument in this thread. I have commented that the particular scriptures Bernard quoted do not appear to me to be condemnation of profanity. Quote I agree that Jesus emphasized the intent of the language more than the specific wording, but imo he was not dismissive of the acts that usually expressed that intent simply because he taught one should be concerned about intent. Fair enough Quote Language does change over time. I use a couple of words on occasion because they weren’t ‘swears’ where I grew up in how they were used, but my husband grew up where they were. I think we need to recognize the changes and focus on teaching respect without getting too hung up about words that are at the point of transitioning to more or less meaningless value. I have no problem pushing for no use of those that are still seen as extreme in educational and other areas where there is a mix of communities that use language differently and teaching kids that recognizing differences and respecting them includes avoiding language that disturbs those one is with. I think there are many places that should be off limits to the use of profanity. Education is certainly one of them (with rare exceptions perhaps - eg certain literature courses maybe). I think most professional environments should be that way too. We should respect each other’s sensitivities and be kind. I disagree that profanity itself is inherently negative and can’t be used in positive ways (not saying this is your position, but this has been my general argument in this thread). Profanity among close friends can strengthen bonds. Profanity can also express very strong emotion that other words just fail to do. Profanity can build relationships and trust as Bluedreams reports. Profanity used well can be terribly hilarious as well. 3
Calm Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 Has this scripture been posted yet? Quote I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned Matt 12:36-37 1
Calm Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) The discussion just made me curious how profanity might be commented on in scripture. I am not defending any position at the moment because we have no one to ask about usage from that culture, so it is educated guessing/analysis of possibilities from the scholars imo. Edited January 13, 2020 by Calm
poptart Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 12 hours ago, Calm said: Out of wedlock contributes to single parents, but so does marriage and divorce. Yep, and the children suffer because of it much like those born out of wedlock. My experience has been few people care about the damage done to children from divorce, the worst was seeing friends of mine from good Catholic/High protestant families (The ones who back in the day rejected the hypocracy of the moral majority and held to tradition and morals) turned their backs on them for their parents breaking what was their perception of church rules and sacraments, never mind that they were children at the time and had no say so in what their parents did. Can only imagine what it's like now, glad I'll most likely never know as I go out of my way to avoid those kinds of situations.
Jeanne Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 Swept through all the episodes yesterday...I wish I could write for this show...so many possibilities!
pogi Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) On 1/10/2020 at 9:50 PM, Bernard Gui said: Tasteful vulgarity. Interesting concept. Would you say that strings of fs and shs in various languages in Messiah are artistic and effective? Directing a series of dissonances at a person is not comparable to yelling profanities at them. I don’t agree with your musical analogy, so I guess we’ll have to let that go. Extremely foul language in a movie is easy to deal with. Don’t watch it. I am concerned about its growing acceptance in our culture and the deleterious influence it has on our human relationships. When mfr, et al., become common parlance even with little children and angry chants of fu permeate our individual and social discourse then we have a problem. It’s discouraging to hear some of my brothers and sisters in the gospel defending it and calling me out for opposing it. At least that’s the way I see it. I don't disagree with you about how language can be deleterious on human relationships. I don't think people should be unkind in general. In fact, I think that calling someone stupid or bullying in general is far, far worse than screaming "sh**" or "fu**" after hitting your thumb with a hammer. To protest at the one being portrayed in cinema and not the other is like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, in my opinion. I very much dislike when language (not just swear words) is used to hurt other people. I very much dislike vulgar language in relation to sacred sexual intimacy. I very much dislike the name of the Lord being used as a by-word. Even in cinema, it pains me to see it and hear it. But, my position is that even then it can be (I am not arguing that it always is) used to good effect. I also dislike murder, I hate violence, theft and dishonesty, etc. etc. etc. I view those things as extremely vulgar. Should we protest when they are portrayed in cinema? To clarify, I am not defending the use of hurtful language towards another human being (swearing isn't always used that way though) any more than you are defending racial prejudice, violence, murder, theft, etc. by not protesting its portrayal in the media. It is all bad, but it can all be portrayed to good effect with positive messages in story telling. I do not condone its use, per se. All though I have no issue with swearing in non hurtful ways - like yelling "sh**" when you slam your finger with a hammer. You are right it is easy to avoid though - You can't watch a TV show rated MA (the Messiah) and then complain about its language - that deserves an eye-roll. Edited January 13, 2020 by pogi 4
Bernard Gui Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, pogi said: I don't disagree with you about how language can be deleterious on human relationships. I don't think people should be unkind in general. In fact, I think that calling someone stupid or bullying in general is far, far worse than screaming "sh**" or "fu**" after hitting your thumb with a hammer. To protest at the one being portrayed in cinema and not the other is like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, in my opinion. I very much dislike when language (not just swear words) is used to hurt other people. I very much dislike vulgar language in relation to sacred sexual intimacy. I very much dislike the name of the Lord being used as a by-word. Even in cinema, it pains me to see it and hear it. But, my position is that even then it can be (I am not arguing that it always is) used to good effect. I also dislike murder, I hate violence, theft and dishonesty, etc. etc. etc. I view those things as extremely vulgar. Should we protest when they are portrayed in cinema? To clarify, I am not defending the use of hurtful language towards another human being (swearing isn't always used that way though) any more than you are defending racial prejudice, violence, murder, theft, etc. by not protesting its portrayal in the media. It is all bad, but it can all be portrayed to good effect with positive messages in story telling. I do not condone its use, per se. All though I have no issue with swearing in non hurtful ways - like yelling "sh**" when you slam your finger with a hammer. You are right it is easy to avoid though - You can't watch a TV show rated MA (the Messiah) and then complain about its language - that deserves an eye-roll. Eyeroll? 😂 MA=Mature Audience. Vulgarity = Maturity? “Hey, kid! You have to be 21 before you can listen to or say that word!” 🤪 Vulgarity is a puerile habit many of us strive to overcome. It has been my contention here that such things are not mature...they’re juvenile. The Savior and his prophets have warned against vulgarity. I’ll appeal to their authority. I think I my position is on solid ground. Quote Charles Penrose April 1913 We will observe personal cleanliness and preserve ourselves in all chastity, by refraining from adultery, whoredom and lust. We will also discountenance and refrain from all vulgar and obscene language or conduct. " Brethren, have you kept that covenant? Don't you sometimes indulge in conversation, in language that does not comport with your position as Latter-day Saints, to say nothing of holding the priesthood of the living God? Don't forget this injunction, to abstain from vulgar language, anything that is obscene and improper. If you indulge in these things it will bring with it a spirit that belongs to that kind of conversation, but if you want to preserve the spirit of purity and chastity and virtue and holiness before the Lord, abstain from that kind of conversation. Quote Elray Christiansen April 1955 Again, when we partake of the sacrament of the Lord's supper, we enter into covenants with him. We make a covenant that we will take upon us the name of the Son. That means, it seems to me, to be like him as nearly as possible, to do as he would do, to live in our everyday lives as he would live, to be a true disciple of Christ. Now, he who takes upon him the name of Christ surely will obliterate from his life such things as profane and vulgar language, and evil thinking, " For, " says the Lord, " as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. " (Prov. 23:7.) Elder Gordon Hinckley’s General Priesthood address in October 1987 was entirely dedicated to the subject of vulgar speech. The talk impacted me and informs the position I have taken in this thread. I will provide quotes from it in my next post. Edited January 14, 2020 by Bernard Gui 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) Quote Take Not the Name of God in Vain Gordon B. Hinckley First Counselor in the First Presidency I should like to address my remarks to the boys who are here, the young men of the Aaronic Priesthood. I have in hand a letter sent me by a public official. He wrote: “Would you please consider dealing with the problem of the use of profanity, swearing, and vulgar language? “From my high school days years ago I can only recall one student who indulged in such, and most students shunned his association. Today, if I am correctly informed, its use has reached epidemic proportions among our high school youth.” He goes on: “One evening I was watching a TV movie with my sixteen-year-old son. When some crude language was used, I suggested that we turn off the TV. My son said, ‘All right, Dad, but that’s nothing compared to what I hear at school all the time.’ In visiting with some of the youth in our community I receive the same report. One boy commented, ‘Everybody, nearly, talks that way. The girls are just as bad or worse than the boys.’ “What I fear from these reports is that the prevalent use of foul language has become an acceptable pattern in the schools, probably due in large part to the influence of TV and the general permissiveness in our society. Whatever the cause, I hope that some additional emphasis might be made to curb it, to help our youth appreciate the importance of proper language.” I believe the suggestion is timely. I clipped from the Wall Street Journal a recent column by Hodding Carter. In it he states: “If it was once rare to hear sailors’ language in mixed company, it is now difficult to avoid it. For whatever reason, the enduring contribution to America left by the 1960s has been the debasement of public discourse and behavior.” Mr. Carter writes as a former Marine and as a newspaper reporter, both groups known for their use of salty language. This he admits, and confesses his guilt. But he decries the growing public practice. He continues: “Such behavior is not confined to the big cities or the two coasts. … While what was once labeled ghetto language is, of course, prevalent in the ghetto, it is also commonplace at Harvard and Tulane, at Davenport, Iowa, and Destin, Florida, to name a few … places.” He goes on: “Beyond language is the larger problem, which is the decline of civility in general. … “And so we are assaulted on all sides by the ethos of the slob, with few having the courage or desire to confront it head on.” Says he, “I rarely challenge the foulmouth who embarrasses my mother in a public place. … I, like most of you, simply wince and turn away” (Wall Street Journal, 4 June 1987, p. 23). Conversations I have had with school principals and students lead me to the same conclusion—that even among our young people, there is an evil and growing habit of profanity and the use of foul and filthy language.I do not hesitate to say that it is wrong, seriously wrong, for any young man ordained to the priesthood of God to be guilty of such..... In a general epistle to the entire Church issued by the First Presidency on April 8, 1887, a hundred years ago, they said concerning this problem, which evidently was serious then as it is now, “The habit …, which some young people fall into, of using vulgarity and profanity … is not only offensive to well-bred persons, but it is a gross sin in the sight of God, and should not exist among the children of the Latter-day Saints” (in Messages of the First Presidency, comp. James R. Clark, 6 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965–75, 3:112–13). I once worked with a group of railroad men who seemed to pride themselves on the use of profanity. They tried to make an art of it. I recall handing a written instruction to a switchman. It was his job to take care of the matter as instructed, but he thought it inconvenient that he should have to do so at that time. On reading the order, he flew into a tantrum. He was a fifty-year-old man, but he acted like a spoiled child. He threw his cap on the ground and jumped on it and let forth such a string of expletives as to seem to cause the air to turn blue around him. Every third or fourth word was the name of Deity spoken in vain. I thought, how childish can a grown man be? The very idea of a man acting and speaking like that was totally repugnant. I could never again give him my full respect.... On one occasion, Jesus said to the multitude, “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man” (Matt. 15:11). I have believed that as I have heard men and women, and boys and girls, profane.... Brethren, stay out of the gutter in your conversation. Foul talk defiles the man who speaks it. If you have the habit, how do you break it? You begin by making a decision to change. The next time you are prone to use words you know to be wrong, simply stop. Keep quiet or say what you have to say in a different way.... Can you think of a missionary in this church using the kind of language heard on many high school campuses? Of course not. Such would be totally out of character with his calling as an ambassador of the Lord. Most of you boys who are here tonight are prospective missionaries. It is as wrong for you to use foul language as it would be for a missionary because you also hold the priesthood. You have authority to act in the name of God. Remember that it is the same voice which prays to the Lord on the one hand and which, on the other hand, when in the company of friends, may be inclined so to speak language foul and filthy. The two kinds of voices are incompatible.... Conversation is the substance of friendly social activity. It can be happy. It can be light. It can be earnest. It can be funny. But it must not be salty, or uncouth, or foul if one is in sincerity a believer in Christ. Perhaps you feel I have belabored the point unduly. If I have done so, it is because I feel it is so very important. It is a tragic and unnecessary thing that boys and girls use foul language. It is inexcusable for a girl so to speak. It is likewise serious for the boy who holds the priesthood. This practice is totally unacceptable for one authorized to speak in the name of God. To blaspheme His holy name or to speak in language that is debauched is offensive to God and man. The man or the boy who must resort to such language immediately says that he is poverty-ridden in his vocabulary. He does not enjoy sufficient richness of expression to be able to speak effectively without swearing or using foul words. [Scientific American articles notwithstanding.] I have so spoken to you tonight because I think some of you may have been indulging in this practice, at least in a measure. I hope that you will accept what I have said in the spirit intended. If you have been using such language and your friends are with you in this priesthood meeting, then unitedly resolve to help one another. Should there be a slip of the tongue, then remind one another. I hope you will do so. By so doing, you will honor your Heavenly Father. You will honor His Beloved Son. You will honor the priesthood which you hold. You will bring credit to the homes from which you come. You will honor yourself and be proud of your capacity to discipline your language. I say this to the boys. I say it also to any of you older men who have a similar problem. I do so with love. I know that the Lord is pleased when we use clean and virtuous language, for He has set an example for us. His revelations are couched in words that are affirmative, that are uplifting, that encourage us to do what is right and to go forward in truth and goodness. Don’t swear. Don’t profane. Avoid so-called dirty jokes. Stay away from conversation that is sprinkled with foul and filthy words. You will be happier if you do so, and your example will give strength to others. May you be blessed so to do, I humbly pray, my beloved brethren, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Edited January 14, 2020 by Bernard Gui 3
pogi Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Eyeroll? Ya, watching an MA show and complaining about the language is like a vegan ordering a burger and complaining that there is beef in it. 1
pogi Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I’ll appeal to their authority. I think I my position is on solid ground. I don't question the ground you are on and try to be respectful to those who are more sensitive to it. I rarely swear myself because of how it might affect others. I am personally not offended by swearing (with the exceptions previously mentioned) and don't find it "vulgar" in most cases. I find other content in pg and pg 13 movies more "vulgar" and offensive than swear words to be honest. What is considered "filthy language" is entirely subjective and cultural. There is nothing inherently filthy with most of these words (with the exceptions previously noted) and any word can be filthy in a filthy context. All the quotes you listed speak against filthy, vulgar, dirty, and profane language, but doesn't define what that is. It is different for each person, culture, and context, and is not a blanket black and white matter of inherent filth in a word. 1
Tacenda Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) On 1/13/2020 at 10:20 AM, Jeanne said: Swept through all the episodes yesterday...I wish I could write for this show...so many possibilities! Write it here, I'd love to see if they'll match! I'd love to read what you think! Edited January 14, 2020 by Tacenda
Tacenda Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, pogi said: I don't question the ground you are on and try to be respectful to those who are more sensitive to it. I rarely swear myself because of how it might affect others. I am personally not offended by swearing (with the exceptions previously mentioned) and don't find it "vulgar" in most cases. I find other content in pg and pg 13 movies more "vulgar" and offensive than swear words to be honest. What is considered "filthy language" is entirely subjective and cultural. There is nothing inherently filthy with most of these words (with the exceptions previously noted) and any word can be filthy in a filthy context. All the quotes you listed speak against filthy, vulgar, dirty, and profane language, but doesn't define what that is. It is different for each person, culture, and context, and is not a blanket black and white matter of inherent filth in a word. It may be how we're conditioned...
Jeanne Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Write it here, I'd love to see if they'll match! I'd love to read what you think! Oh, me, too! When I write I find out things about myself and how I think and feel. Maybe I will plug in some suggestions in what I would like to see within the comparison of the Savior then and now...that is how people looked and felt about him. I have thought in some epidsodes ...yes!! This is how they must have seen him....suspicious..fearful...curious..all tied into the last episode..where a child dies..but 3 men are raised from the dead. Seriously, would we have believed this?? What would it take for a US president to stand down his choices on the beliefs of one man? Ooooo...can't wait!
stemelbow Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 I liked hearing that Hinckley thought his youth was better than every one elses. My grandma and grandpaps went to high school with him, and they chuckled whenever they saw him or heard him, thinking he was such an obnoxious high school kid. I didn't realize Gordon was likely shunning my grandpa. He could have been the fellow at LDS High School that Gordon had in mind. Then again it could have been my grandma--nevermind he advocated the shunning of a boy. Coincidentally her grandpa was Charles W. Penrose (previously quoted by Bernard Gui) and she lived with him when she went to school--her parents lived up north. She filled her last few years telling story of her youth. Thanks for the old time quotes. They got me thinking of those two.
bluebell Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 4 hours ago, pogi said: Ya, watching an MA show and complaining about the language is like a vegan ordering a burger and complaining that there is beef in it. This is true. My eye roll would be at the idea that you can't have MA content without using swear words. That's the lie that I think hollywood has bought into. Adult = Swearing. 1
bluebell Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 I love how Jim Lovell said that he thought Apollo thirteen was an excellent movie but that the swearing wasn't accurate because he and the other astronauts never talked like that. You can't get much more adult than the tension and anxiety that those men had to deal with for days on end, but swearing still wasn't a part of that experience for them. I'd love for hollywood to learn to think outside of the box when it comes to how they present MA content. 3
Bernard Gui Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, pogi said: Ya, watching an MA show and complaining about the language is like a vegan ordering a burger and complaining that there is beef in it. Well, you have completely missed my point, but I'll leave it there. . Quote I don't question the ground you are on and try to be respectful to those who are more sensitive to it. I rarely swear myself because of how it might affect others. I am personally not offended by swearing (with the exceptions previously mentioned) and don't find it "vulgar" in most cases. I find other content in pg and pg 13 movies more "vulgar" and offensive than swear words to be honest. What is considered "filthy language" is entirely subjective and cultural. There is nothing inherently filthy with most of these words (with the exceptions previously noted) and any word can be filthy in a filthy context. All the quotes you listed speak against filthy, vulgar, dirty, and profane language, but doesn't define what that is. It is different for each person, culture, and context, and is not a blanket black and white matter of inherent filth in a word. Not talking about other things that earn PG, PG13, R, MA, etc., ratings. Just the language we use here in the good old US of A. They probably refer to shucks, flip, darn, I swan, poppycock, buzz off, baloney, scrud, fiddle-sticks, heck, shoot, by golly, and gosh. Or they might be referring to whatever the vulgarity du jour is in your particular subjective view, person, time, culture, and context. I think probably the latter is the issue. I also think they are pretty clear than vulgarity, whatever its stripe, is to be avoided, but you may disagree. Now that we have sanitized our most vulgar words, the search will be on for the next round. Sad. We don't usually disagree about much, but I have to part ways here. Thanks for the conversation Edited January 14, 2020 by Bernard Gui
Bernard Gui Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: I liked hearing that Hinckley thought his youth was better than every one elses. My grandma and grandpaps went to high school with him, and they chuckled whenever they saw him or heard him, thinking he was such an obnoxious high school kid. I didn't realize Gordon was likely shunning my grandpa. He could have been the fellow at LDS High School that Gordon had in mind. Then again it could have been my grandma--nevermind he advocated the shunning of a boy. Coincidentally her grandpa was Charles W. Penrose (previously quoted by Bernard Gui) and she lived with him when she went to school--her parents lived up north. She filled her last few years telling story of her youth. Thanks for the old time quotes. They got me thinking of those two. Other than being pure gossip, why do you feel the need to slander a man who did much good and who is not here to defend himself? Edited January 14, 2020 by Bernard Gui 1
Calm Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Other than being just gossip, why do you need to slander a man who did much good and who is not here to defend himself? Would anyone find it very problematic if the kids were shunning because the vulgarities were racist or other slurs of themselves or fellow students and not just ‘salty’ language?
pogi Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, bluebell said: This is true. My eye roll would be at the idea that you can't have MA content without using swear words. That's the lie that I think hollywood has bought into. Adult = Swearing. You can have MA content without swear words. It would contain suggestive language, violence, and/or sexual content. I have seen shows that use PG language with other adult content. I am less offended by MA shows with "coarse language" and less violence, sexual content, and suggestive language personally. I don't think the point of the rating system is to suggest that adult = swearing or anything else. It suggests that children are not mature enough to process it and can be more traumatic for them. 1
pogi Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Well, you have completely missed my point, but I'll leave it there. . I got your point. It was a red herring distraction from my point though so I didn't feel the need to address it. I address your point in my last post to bluebell.
Bernard Gui Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I love how Jim Lovell said that he thought Apollo thirteen was an excellent movie but that the swearing wasn't accurate because he and the other astronauts never talked like that. You can't get much more adult than the tension and anxiety that those men had to deal with for days on end, but swearing still wasn't a part of that experience for them. I'd love for hollywood to learn to think outside of the box when it comes to how they present MA content. Well, that is the point I have been making. When the writers are sitting around the table, for example in Messiah, someone says "This guard is really shook up. How many profanities do we need to express his fear or surprise. 1,5, 15? How about none? It's been done to great effect for decades....even centuries.
Bernard Gui Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, pogi said: I got your point. It was a red herring distraction from my point though so I didn't feel the need to address it. I address your point in my last post to bluebell. I mean the whole point of my participation in this thread. You have missed it, but that's ok. It's been interesting.
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