Church finance scandal, What Church finance scandal?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Why is it listed in the email that tithing goes to helping the poor and needy then? First one on the list:

The Church is committed to helping the poor and needy. Latter-day Saint Charities is a global program that primarily benefits those who are not Latter-day Saints. In times of need and during other emergencies, we partner with many global organizations like the Red Cross to provide assistance. President Russell M. Nelson spoke recently about some of these efforts. And this represents only a small portion of what the Church spends to care for those in need. The most recent annual report shows that the Church’s humanitarian arm has given more than $2.2 billion in aid in 197 countries since it was created in 1985. In addition, through the Church’s welfare program, leaders of the faith’s 30,000-plus congregations regularly help men, women and children with food, housing and other temporal needs, totaling billions more dollars in assistance.

Not from tithing funds.  From offerings.  Tithing doesn't go to that.

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

That was how it was understood in the very beginning before the law of tithing was revealed in Section 119 on July 8, 1838.  But it has been a really long time since 1838.  

D&C 42 which pre-1838 did allow tithing funds to be used for humanitarian aid also specifically restricted it to needy Church members.

The Church has NEVER had any policy to use a dime of tithing money outside of building up the Church and its members.  Tithing money is not to be given away.  It belongs to God.  We are to provide offerings for that purpose.

[Tacenda]

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not from tithing funds.  From offerings.  Tithing doesn't go to that.

D&C 42 which pre-1838 did allow tithing funds to be used for humanitarian aid also specifically restricted it to needy Church members.

The Church has NEVER had any policy to use a dime of tithing money outside of building up the Church and its members.  Tithing money is not to be given away.  It belongs to God.  We are to provide offerings for that purpose.

If you are correct, the church misleads!

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/humanitarian-aid-welfare-services-breakdown-donations-costs-resources

Tithing

In keeping with the biblical practice of tithes, Latter-day Saints offer one-tenth of their income to the Church. These funds are used to:

• Provide buildings or places of worship for members around the world.
• Provide education programs, including support for Church universities and seminary and institute programs.
• Support the Church’s worldwide missionary program.
• Build and operate temples around the world and administer the world’s largest family history program.
• Support the Church’s welfare programs, which serve people around the world regardless of religion, nationality or race.

 

 

Welfare Program

Latter-day Saints contribute to the welfare program, which is primarily designed to care for the needy within the stewardship of the Church. At the discretion of bishops, local funds can, where possible, assist others in need who are not of our faith. Individuals typically depend on the Church’s food assistance for a few weeks to several months before they become self-sufficient once again. In addition to meeting the need for food, clothing and shelter, the program provides vocational rehabilitation and employment opportunities for citizens, immigrants and refugees. The approach is to help people become self-reliant by teaching skills and providing resources for a self-sustained life.

[InCognitus]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If you are correct, the church misleads!

Sometimes the terminology is confusing if one doesn't understand the terms.  But the article you are quoting is titled:  How Church Donations Are Used, of which tithing and welfare are listed in separate donation categories in the article.  

In your quote under "Tithing" above, it specifically says that it is for "support" of the Church's welfare program.  "Support" is an important word there, and the same word is used in the tithing section for the missionary program.   So "support" for the welfare program is different than contributing to the actual welfare program itself, which is why it is listed separately in the "donations" article. 

Read the church's article titled Church Welfare Program Helps People Help Themselves During Tough Economic Times (located here: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/church-welfare-program-helps-people-help-themselves-during-tough-economic-times) to see what kind of "support" for the welfare program is needed, such as this quote below:

Quote

Based on the principle of self-reliance, the Church welfare system includes canneries, farms and factories throughout the United States that provide food and commodities for those in need.

In addition, thousands find jobs annually through its employment centers and on-the-job training at Deseret Industries stores. Thousands more add to their own home food storage to prepare for a rainy day.

The facilities listed above are included in tithing because of how tithing is defined:  For the buildings, maintenance, and education programs of the church.

[lostindc]

It sucks that  some TBMs feel stuck or even okay with defending this financial mess.  To me (which doesn’t matter), it’s a freeing experience to no longer feel the need to defend the Church.

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, lostindc said:

It sucks that  some TBMs feel stuck or even okay with defending this financial mess.  To me (which doesn’t matter), it’s a freeing experience to no longer feel the need to defend the Church.

There's nothing needs defending.  Absolutely nothing wrong here.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, lostindc said:

It sucks that  some TBMs feel stuck or even okay with defending this financial mess.  To me (which doesn’t matter), it’s a freeing experience to no longer feel the need to defend the Church.

If the financial mess only exists in the eye of the brother, Lars, who is described as having issues with the Church, there is nothing that needs defending.

At this point we don't really know what the actual employee of EPA thought was wrong, quite possibly.  At least I can't see the IRS complaint form in the stuff that Lars published.  And he hasn't made a public statement.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, InCognitus said:

That was how it was understood in the very beginning before the law of tithing was revealed in Section 119 on July 8, 1838.  But it has been a really long time since 1838.  

From Encyclopedia of Mormonism, article on Tithing (here: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Tithing)

The revelation on tithing sets it apart for other purposes.  "Offerings" are to be used for the poor and needy.

It's been a long time since the translation of the Book of Mormon and the First Vision, too.

11 hours ago, JAHS said:

I don't know of any scripture that says that. Even if that were true (need a reference for that) those members are long dead now. What does that have to do with us today? 
We live by latter-day revelation on what the policy should be now, not by 19th century policies.
When the law of tithing started back then it was "For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church."  (D&C 119: 2) And actually it is the same now.

 

I think it is reasonable to believe that tithing will be used to advance the four-fold mission of the church:

- Proclaim the Gospel

- Perfect the Saints

- Redeem the Dead

- Care for the Poor and Needy

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

It's been a long time since the translation of the Book of Mormon and the First Vision, too.

I think it is reasonable to believe that tithing will be used to advance the four-fold mission of the church:

- Proclaim the Gospel

- Perfect the Saints

- Redeem the Dead

- Care for the Poor and Needy

Another critically important latter-day mission of the Church is to build and prosper the kingdom of God on the earth (Zion) as a defense and refuge while the nations of this fallen world collapse politically and economically under the weight of their own iniquity. It’s going to take a tremendous amount of capital and resources to build an enduring Zion as the rest of the world crumbles under the just judgements of God, for the which a mere hundred billion dollars is little more than a drop in the proverbial bucket.

The prophecies indicate that by the time of the Second Coming the kingdom of God must have become a viable, self-sustaining economic entity that will “stand independent above every creature beneath the celestial world.” The leaders of the Church are wisely and prudently preparing us for the “last days of trouble and gloom.” Meanwhile, members of the Church who are either blind or willfully ignorant of the prophecies of the upbuilding of Zion, the kingdom of God on earth that will provide a great temporal as well as spiritual salvation, kick against the pricks.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by teddyaware

[Metis_LDS]

This is your Original Poster of this thread.   I attended Church here in the UK (on 22nd Dec).  It was the Christmas service and was packed (lots of visiting relatives).  I could not speak with everyone of course.  All those that did talk to me did not mention anything what so ever about this Tax Whistleblower affair.   I felt it unwise to bring it up myself.  There was also nothing from the Bishopric about the matter.   So only one ward in the UK and I was only one person who spoke with some of the people but that is really what went on for what it is worth. 

Any different reports from wards/branchs in the USA or elsewhere.   Thank YOU!!

Edited December 23, 2019 by Metis_LDS
grammar

[let’s roll]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

It's been a long time since the translation of the Book of Mormon and the First Vision, too.

I think it is reasonable to believe that tithing will be used to advance the four-fold mission of the church:

- Proclaim the Gospel

- Perfect the Saints

- Redeem the Dead

- Care for the Poor and Needy

Me too.  And as I see how tithing funds are expended, I can see how those expenditures are intended to further one or more of those four missions.  

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

Me too.  And as I see how tithing funds are expended, I can see how those expenditures are intended to further one or more of those four missions.  

How do you see them being expended?

[mfbukowski]

On 12/20/2019 at 3:47 PM, Metis_LDS said:

the members in America seem to be exited over this whistle blower thing. 

Trust me.

They are no more excited about this than the breaking news that Brigham Young was a polygamist.

The world does not understand that we believe we are are building Zion, but members should.  Building a new nation state requires a few bucks. 

Three of those four objectives are totally worldly.  "Proclaiming the gospel" is advertising. Totally essential for the objective.

We are not only taking care of the poor today, but who will take care of them after the future mess that is coming?

Are we now a perfect culture of Saints to be able to pull this all off?

Temple building is not only about the dead it is helping us perfect ourselves as well.

THAT is the pragmatic spiritual side as well.  You think they can come out to the world and say that?

I've got no problem with any of this. In fact I wish it was double what we have now. 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

23 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That's an odd claim when, after giving a brief background, he says this:

 

True but he contradicted himself in the same post. Further down:

“As my congregation’s financial clerk I process the very generous donations to these funds, literally the widows’ mites, and I am in an impossible ethical dilemma because they think their money is being spent each year in the humanitarian disasters they see on TV and that the Church regularly boasts about helping with in its propaganda when I know that actually most of that money, in fact nearly all of it, has not been spent on helping anyone except earning more interest for the Church.”

So not worth listening to. Especially that rubbish about his poor ethical dilemma. I love the idea that he either actually thinks or disingenuously implies that being the Assistant Ward Clerk in charge of finances gives him some special insight into how it is used when he is limited to processing the donations and seeing only the ward’s budget and fast offering intakes and outtakes.

Edited December 23, 2019 by The Nehor

[rodheadlee]

Could you imagine the squealing from the anti- Mormons and from members that don't trust our leaders if we were fully transparent with our financial interests. We would be giving our enemies way too much information .

[let’s roll]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

How do you see them being expended?

One example is the building of temples.  Temples further the work of both redeeming the dead and perfecting the saints through facilitating saving ordinances for both the living and the dead.  Those spiritual gifts have eternal benefits not available through temporal gifts.  

If the Church viewed temples as furthering only efforts to redeem the dead, the spike in the number of “smaller” temples would not likely have occurred.  Those temples have limited hours and on any metric chosen, don’t provide nearly the ROI for ordinances for the dead as do larger temples (i.e. cost to build/maintain a temple divided by the number of proxy ordinances performed in the temple).

Smaller temples give members in locations without large numbers of saints the opportunity to receive and perform saving ordinances as well as serve Deity and their brothers and sisters as temple workers (millions of volunteer hours a year are donated by those serving in temples throughout the world).  Again, if one looked only at the ROI, I believe the Church would expend fewer dollars if it paid travel expenses for Saints in areas with smaller populations of Saints to travel to the nearest temple. Yet, I believe both the Church and Deity see the wisdom in building smaller temples in greater numbers.

Any land where a temple stands garners benefits from that temple, which stands as a beacon to those who understand its significance and an invitation to those who don’t yet understand that significance.  In that way, temples also further the work of proclaiming the gospel.

[Duncan]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/mormon-church-accused-of-stockpiling-billions-avoiding-paying-taxes-1.4735084

this made the news in Canada

[bsjkki]

10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

How do you see them being expended?

I see them being expended as I live the gospel each day. The church website, newsroom, church buildings, temples, the new Come Follow Me program and new youth initiative, Christmas devotionals, visits by leaders, Satellite broadcasts, new abuse guidelines, youth protection training, welfare square and the missionaries in my ward who are subsidized. The list goes on and on... I see my tithing dollars being spent exactly as I have been taught. I also live in a ward that needed no fast offering expenditures to needy members for over 6 months. I know that money will be spent elsewhere in the world to help the poor and needy. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by bsjkki

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/20/2019 at 4:34 AM, Metis_LDS said:

I am sure others on here have thought this already.  Apart from members of the Church who like my self are news hounds and those who are not but are on different internet social media this whistle blowing is most likely not known by many members outside of North America.  I saw the story (so far) only in the US newspaper that first published it,  it happens to be a US paper I check daily.  It has not even made the news in any of the five major UK media outlets that I check daily.  Does anyone know of any other country running the story?  There is so much anti Church videos on YouTube and this will be one more to struggle for attention.  What is the point of what I say,  I depend on others on the board who may have a bigger picture to help understand this question,  as a World Church is this really a local issue regarding tax laws.  I understand Salt Lake is the center of Church leadership.  But this investment arm/agency or whatever it is could be located elsewhere, perhaps will be.

Well said.

The virtue-signaling from some, LDS and non, is instructive.

It's almost as if they feel the investment arm of the Church should be punished for being successful (i.e. investing in secure, return-providing instruments). That sentiment is awfully close to the: let's tax the rich, then all gov't will be paid for. Both are void of reason, logic, context.

Apparently they want faith alone to buy and maintain real estate, fund missions, build Temples, etc.

I have my own reservations about some Church things but making claims like these are infantile. 

If people don't want to contribute any additional funds to the Church, that's their choice. God gives us the chance to bless ourselves through obedience. We dont have to accept that opportunity.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Well said.

The virtue-signaling from some, LDS and non, is instructive.

It's almost as if they feel the investment arm of the Church should be punished for being successful (i.e. investing in secure, return-providing instruments). That sentiment is awfully close to the: let's tax the rich, then all gov't will be paid for. Both are void of reason, logic, context.

Apparently they want faith alone to buy and maintain real estate, fund missions, build Temples, etc.

I have my own reservations about some Church things but making claims like these are infantile. 

If people don't want to contribute any additional funds to the Church, that's their choice. God gives us the chance to bless ourselves through obedience. We dont have to accept that opportunity.

To the bold: No, they aren't mad at that, they're mad because of their lack of doing as Christ has said as far as taking care of the poor and needy. In this video it mentioned LDS children who are malnourished. It's a foundation that I've mentioned before and have donated to. Not too long ago the LDS lawyers went after them and told them they can't use Liahona in their name. http://assets.liahonachildren.org/resources/LCNEF_LDS_Proposal.pdf?mtime=20160711231337 It's time for the church to pay generous fast offerings out of the EPA account just as they ask each member to be generous. I believe the church is doing something, but the monies haven't been enough to eradicate this, when all that money sat and sat in that fund. They are now called this, https://bountifulchildren.org/who-we-are/our-mission. It mentions a few LDS stakes are helping, so that's good. I'm probably going to hear it for sharing this video, but I feel I have to, something needs to be done with that vulgar amount sitting there piling up and making all that interest and could have probably saved thousands of children. This need is immediate, no waiting should be allowed.

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Tacenda

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

To the bold: No, they aren't mad at that, they're mad because of their lack of doing as Christ has said as far as taking care of the poor and needy. In this video it mentioned LDS children who are malnourished. It's a foundation that I've mentioned before and have donated to. Not too long ago the LDS lawyers went after them and told them they can't use Liahona in their name. http://assets.liahonachildren.org/resources/LCNEF_LDS_Proposal.pdf?mtime=20160711231337 It's time for the church to pay generous fast offerings out of the EPA account just as they ask each member to be generous.

 

Have you considered it may not be as easy as taking the money and giving it or food to those in need?

Quote

And here’s the paradox likely unknown to most people: giving money away effectively is generally much harder than earning it. The problem is that people assume that all giving is good giving when that is not remotely true.

A recent study by my colleagues Curtis Child and Eva Witesmanshowed that in prosocial initiatives, people are prone to assume only good outcomes and not anticipate bad ones. This is despite the reality that unintended negative consequences and waste are a constant risk of philanthropic giving.  Cutting edge organizations like GiveWelland ImpactMatters are tackling this very issue.

Distributing a huge amount like $100 billion in a way that has a reliable, positive impact would be very, very hard to do, and would require a kind of effort far beyond what people realize. The Gates Foundation in 2018 spent about $1 billion on operations to give away $3.7 billion. They are widely regarded as effective stewards of their assets and are having a commendable impact.

https://publicsquaremag.org/editorials/the-100-billion-mormon-church-story-a-contextual-analysis/

I have a friend who reports that LDS Charities used to try and give used medical equipment to hospitals and clinics, but they never got to their intended destinations because of corruption. 

In many places charities are needed most, when one shows up, so do the thieves and oppressors. 

And even when people are trying to cooperate, intentions don’t always yield results even with a ton of money backing them:

Quote

Fashioning a strategy: In 2010, Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg announced that he was donating $100 million to the Newark New Jersey public schools, working in partnership with the Republican N. J. Governor and the Democratic Newark Mayor. The plan was audacious: turn around a school district where nearly half of the public-school students dropped out of high school, and turn it into a symbol of excellence for the nation.

This gift seemed to epitomize strategic philanthropy: bold, big, with a clear ‘theory of change’ involving making a bet on expanding the charter schools that operated outside the usual education bureaucracy.

Over five years, however, the reformers ran into obstacle after obstacle. Though a few things changed, and continue to, the experiment’s results were deeply disappointing.

We know a lot more about what happened in Newark because a reporter named Dale Russakoff was there, day after day. Her book, The Prize, tells a story of reformers who knew what the answer was, and therefore saw no need to really listen to anyone else — to the teachers on the front lines, or to the Newark citizens who had been run over time and again by outsiders intent on “helping” them. The reformers, in other words, had their own strategy. The story is quite instructive about the limits of changes pushed from the top down.

 

https://cep.org/predicament-strategic-philanthropy/

Edited December 24, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you considered it may not be as easy as taking the money and giving it or food to those in need?

https://publicsquaremag.org/editorials/the-100-billion-mormon-church-story-a-contextual-analysis/

I have a friend who reports that LDS Charities used to try and give used medical equipment to hospitals and clinics, but they never got to their intended destinations because of corruption. 

In many places charities are needed most, when one shows up, so the thieves and oppressors. 

And even when people are trying to cooperate, intentions don’t always yield results even with a ton of money backing them:

https://cep.org/predicament-strategic-philanthropy/

Calm, I hadn't finished my post. There is a foundation called https://bountifulchildren.org/who-we-are/our-mission. Everything is in place to help them. Why can't the church just send them money. As I menitoned already, they mentioned some of their donors are a few LDS stakes. Why can't the church do that? Why must it always come from the members? Why not from the interest earned in the EPA account?

Edited December 24, 2019 by Tacenda

[Metis_LDS]

Many believe those who run the Church can do as they please.  So the Church could just give out financial information because the leaders decided.   Even a half baked student of Church history knows it does not work like that.  Some things seen from the outside as purely administrative are not and cannot be just changed without approval from him whose name is on the front of Church buildings.  I claim no knowledge about the Lord's will towards financial reporting.  But I am certain He has the final say about it.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/mormon-church-accused-of-stockpiling-billions-avoiding-paying-taxes-1.4735084

this made the news in Canada

I have seen an article about this in virtually every news feed I read.  Some less complimentary than others.  

[Metis_LDS]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'm probably going to hear it for sharing this video, but I feel I have to, something needs to be done with that vulgar amount sitting there piling up and making all that interest and could have probably saved thousands of children. This need is immediate, no waiting should be allowed.

I do want any child or any adult anywhere on earth to be hungry.  Where I grew up in Canada there was poverty like you would not believe.  No one in that part of Canada survived the winter without heat and shelter.  At my age I can no longer believe that money can change the world so that hunger is wiped out.   The countries in your video have had or are having serious problems.  My son served a mission in Cambodia.  What I know is that charities can feed people for a time period,  then the charities burn out.  Emergency aid is one thing,  trying to run and change a country is completely different.   I do not write this to discourage charity.  We need to accept the limits of outside help while still helping.  

[bsjkki]

50 minutes ago, california boy said:

I have seen an article about this in virtually every news feed I read.  Some less complimentary than others.  

It's not surprising. This is the type of story the press loves to run with. The original WP story gets spread to smaller papers. Newsweek chimes in with their biased spin. The AP and Reuters run with what the WP wrote and don't really add or fact check and the headlines are all negative. Most people don't read the full articles and realize  these brothers have a huge credibility problem and that the facts are not really clear and much is based on hearsay from two people with very questionable motives. The faithful members and church spokesman phrases are 'in' the story but overall, the story seems to imply the church did something illegal/unethical without any substantive facts. The brothers numbers are mostly unproven but even here, we debate them like they are facts. It is amazing how misinformation these days is spread far and wide with such ease or so little accountability. They just report quotes from others, don't really care if they are true or not and let the flashing headline rule the day. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by bsjkki