Metis_LDS Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) I am sure others on here have thought this already. Apart from members of the Church who like my self are news hounds and those who are not but are on different internet social media this whistle blowing is most likely not known by many members outside of North America. I saw the story (so far) only in the US newspaper that first published it, it happens to be a US paper I check daily. It has not even made the news in any of the five major UK media outlets that I check daily. Does anyone know of any other country running the story? There is so much anti Church videos on YouTube and this will be one more to struggle for attention. What is the point of what I say, I depend on others on the board who may have a bigger picture to help understand this question, as a World Church is this really a local issue regarding tax laws. I understand Salt Lake is the center of Church leadership. But this investment arm/agency or whatever it is could be located elsewhere, perhaps will be. Edited December 20, 2019 by Metis_LDS grammar and addition 1
Robert F. Smith Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 Doug Fabrizio, "Radio West" (NPR), just completed a program on this issue which you can listen to at https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/lds-church-s-alleged-100-billion-surplus . 1
Popular Post mrmarklin Posted December 20, 2019 Popular Post Posted December 20, 2019 The reality is that this "scandal" is yet to be one. Just because a disgruntled employee badmouths you means very little. As a tax accountant, you can trust me when I say that US tax laws, particularly regarding organizations such as religious institutions, are Byzantine and murky. Charities are required to give a certain amount to maintain tax exempt status, but Churches are certainly not. Technically a church is not a charity, although according to US tax law they are treated the same on a personal tax form as far as deductions. 5
Metis_LDS Posted December 20, 2019 Author Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, mrmarklin said: As a tax accountant, you can trust me when I say that US tax laws, particularly regarding organizations such as religious institutions, are Byzantine and murky. Charities are required to give a certain amount to maintain tax exempt status, but Churches are certainly not. Technically a church is not a charity, although according to US tax law they are treated the same on a personal tax form as far as deductions. Yes I do trust you because what you said has the ring of truth to it. I know America is where the Lord chose to bring forth the restoration of the Gospel in these latter days. I was trying to say in a gentle way (gentle does not seem to go far on this board) the members in America seem to be exited over this whistle blower thing. That does not make it a World wide Church issue. Let me be really honest as you have been. Let us make believe that this plays out where the Church did do something wrong in the eyes of the IRS. I do not think that many members would hear about it outside North America. I said I think, but now I say I know that even if they did they would not care. I live in a civilized western nation and I can hardly follow along with every twist and turn of regulations. I would hardly be surprised one day to break a law by ignorance (they do not accept this as an excuse over here). Members would have the greatest sympathy for the Church over as you say Byzantine and murky tax laws. Edited December 20, 2019 by Metis_LDS correction 1
Scott Lloyd Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Doug Fabrizio, "Radio West" (NPR), just completed a program on this issue which you can listen to at https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/lds-church-s-alleged-100-billion-surplus . Meh. Local news.
Calm Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Meh. Local news. Meaning what? did you listen? If so, summary? 1
Calm Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, mrmarklin said: The reality is that this "scandal" is yet to be one. Just because a disgruntled employee badmouths you means very little. As a tax accountant, you can trust me when I say that US tax laws, particularly regarding organizations such as religious institutions, are Byzantine and murky. Charities are required to give a certain amount to maintain tax exempt status, but Churches are certainly not. Technically a church is not a charity, although according to US tax law they are treated the same on a personal tax form as far as deductions. I really would like to get a professional's opinion of the number crunching he did. The actual documents he removed from Ensign are very limited in info and stop with actual data in 2013 with everything after an extrapolation, but there are several spreadsheets that are supposed profound. If I understand correctly, the whistle blower put them together. I am assuming he is claiming the two cases of funds transfer based on the 5 examples on one of orientation sheets (the one I posted in the other thread). Out of the the 5 they appeared to be anticipating needing additional funding past the budget, it looks like only 2 required it...which gave him his claims. I am wondering if he was so well informed, why was the only information he was able to provide showing alleged tax violations off an orientation sheet. If he was privy to all sorts of details, then why is most of his documented material from 2013 at which point assets were at $47 billion (see below). Why with his access wasn't he able to provide more damaging details since he worked for them almost ten years? That is all I got from the EPA documents themselves. I assume the spreadsheets mean something to the IRS because I doubt mission summaries and flowcharts of funding and advising and projection sheet for liquidity is of any actual value proving fraud. I am going to try and endure the 34 pages of commentary...they look like mostly footnotes, so may go fast. Again red or yellow highlighting is not original to the chart, but added to it by Nielsen, those comments may therefore be incorrect. Looks like some text is missing below, the red line is topped by financial crisis of 2008 iirc. The tilt is not me, but Nielsen. Edited December 21, 2019 by Calm 1
Calm Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 Page 53 or Fund Flows/Grants among Church Entities looks like an interesting and possible crucial chart...could the arrows mean funds invested and funds returned? Unfortunately formatting goes wonky for me. Maybe someone else can get it to work or put in a screenshot? Here is the link again for ease of access: https://www.scribd.com/document/439385879/Letter-to-an-IRS-Director Added: blast it, wrong thread. Sorry about that. Metis, tell me if you want me to move it as off topic. I have to read the commentary while in the mood...which will probably last 5 minutes or so since the pique of curiosity from the flow chart will only take me so far.
Scott Lloyd Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 53 minutes ago, Calm said: Meaning what? did you listen? If so, summary? Meaning Doug Fabrizio has a public affairs program on KUER, the radio station at the University of Utah with a listening audience pretty much limited to Utah and environs. I thought Métis_LDS was asking about national reach and scope. That’s not Fabrizio.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Meh. Local news. 2 hours ago, Calm said: Meaning what? did you listen? If so, summary? It is a podcast available to anyone in the world. This particular program featured three guests who were able to provide real context and insight. Quote Jon Swaine, investigative reporter for the Washington Post Lee Hale, religion reporter for KUER; host of Preach Samual Brunson, Professor of Law at Loyola University, Chicago; author of God and the IRS: Accommodating Religious Practice in United States Tax Law Edited December 21, 2019 by Robert F. Smith
Metis_LDS Posted December 21, 2019 Author Posted December 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Calm said: Metis, tell me if you want me to move it as off topic. I have to read the commentary while in the mood...which will probably last 5 minutes or so since the pique of curiosity from the flow chart will only take me so far. Take a deep breath and do not stress over this topic. I am fine with anything. 1
Metis_LDS Posted December 21, 2019 Author Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Meaning Doug Fabrizio has a public affairs program on KUER, the radio station at the University of Utah with a listening audience pretty much limited to Utah and environs. I thought Métis_LDS was asking about national reach and scope. That’s not Fabrizio. Actually I was more interested in anything outside of North America. Just to see if the story had gone international. So far it does not seem it has. The impeachment vote on Wednesday evening really over shadowed it in the media, even in America. Edited December 21, 2019 by Metis_LDS addition for clarity
Derl Sanderson Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 Rochester, New York Columnist Bob Lonsberry (who is a Church member). http://boblonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=4322
Derl Sanderson Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 Oops, wrong link. Try this: http://boblonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=4320&go=4 2
Metis_LDS Posted December 21, 2019 Author Posted December 21, 2019 I am sad about this whole whistleblower episode. That quote about the members shattering like glass comes to mind. This still is for now an allegation. Until this started I had thought that the kind of reaction we experienced (not just on this board) would be for when the Church was caught doing something illegal on purpose. Shows you how much I know.
Calm Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 53 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said: Take a deep breath and do not stress over this topic. I am fine with anything. I don't stress, I enjoy the dissection...exercises the brain, puzzle solving. I just don't want to annoy others by having it spill all over the board.
Calm Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 12 hours ago, Derl Sanderson said: Oops, wrong link. Try this: http://boblonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=4320&go=4 Quote And the story is told by the newspaper of a man whose mammoth corporation paid no income tax this year. Hmm.... Trying to make the link active for you... http://boblonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=4320&go=4
Scott Lloyd Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 14 hours ago, Derl Sanderson said: Rochester, New York Columnist Bob Lonsberry (who is a Church member). http://boblonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=4322 It’s not remarkable that Lonsberry would give attention to this since he tends to key in on Utah-related affairs. He used to do a radio talk show that was broadcasted in Salt Lake, even though he was based in Rochester.
Scott Lloyd Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 7 hours ago, 2BizE said: There's no scandal here....move along.... Your sarcasm is truer than you realize. This is a manufactured “scandal.” The only ones who care, for the most part, are those who already hate the Church. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: It is a podcast available to anyone in the world. This particular program featured three guests who were able to provide real context and insight. Anybody can put up a podcast these days and by virtue of it being on the internet have a potentially global reach. That, in and of itself, is not all that impressive. Edited December 22, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
Robert F. Smith Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Anybody can put up a podcast these days and by virtue of it being on the internet have a potentially global reach. That, in and of itself, is not all that impressive. I am more interested in substance. We get so little of it from the media.
The Nehor Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Your sarcasm is truer than you realize. This is a manufactured “scandal.” The only ones who care, for the most part, are those who already hate the Church. I don’t know. I have seen a lot of people who did not contribute to the Church before double down that they will continue to not donate. The fiscal repercussions could be disastrous. /sarcasm 2
Scott Lloyd Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 19 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I don’t know. I have seen a lot of people who did not contribute to the Church before double down that they will continue to not donate. The fiscal repercussions could be disastrous. /sarcasm Kind of like those who resign their Church membership for the 10th or 11th time? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I am more interested in substance. We get so little of it from the media. Be that as it may, the question here seems to be how widespread the interest really is in this thing. 1
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