Robert F. Smith Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Be that as it may, the question here seems to be how widespread the interest really is in this thing. Probably not very deep or lasting. It will continue to have the status of rumor, and people will use the rumor to justify their already extant opinions, pro and con. ETA: Maybe it will be attracting a lot attention. See Meadowchik's comment below on foreign interest. Edited December 22, 2019 by Robert F. Smith 2
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: I don’t know. I have seen a lot of people who did not contribute to the Church before double down that they will continue to not donate. The fiscal repercussions could be disastrous. /sarcasm There are part-member families who must comprimise about how to pay and how much tithing to pay. This could make a compelling case for the family member opposed to tithing. Or to others struggling with the concept themselves. I personally know people who with extreme difficulty paid their tithing faithfully, and endured prolonged pain and stress to make that possible. Some who've sacrificed faithfully may have been expected the institution to similarly stretch itself in executing the purposes of tithing. 2
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 On 12/20/2019 at 9:34 AM, Metis_LDS said: I am sure others on here have thought this already. Apart from members of the Church who like my self are news hounds and those who are not but are on different internet social media this whistle blowing is most likely not known by many members outside of North America. I saw the story (so far) only in the US newspaper that first published it, it happens to be a US paper I check daily. It has not even made the news in any of the five major UK media outlets that I check daily. Does anyone know of any other country running the story? There is so much anti Church videos on YouTube and this will be one more to struggle for attention. What is the point of what I say, I depend on others on the board who may have a bigger picture to help understand this question, as a World Church is this really a local issue regarding tax laws. I understand Salt Lake is the center of Church leadership. But this investment arm/agency or whatever it is could be located elsewhere, perhaps will be. Peter Bleakley is a UK member who recently presented at Sunstone London his own personal thoughts of reviving the church by focussing on foundational LDS cosmology. More recently, he's also posted extensively on this story and has articulated several arguments critical of the church's handling of its finances and the tithing funds: you can catch his post and much more commentary in the replies here: https://www.facebook.com/peter.bleakley.5/posts/10158224506176800 I live outside the States and have seen the articles in my own generic newsfeeds. However, that is also subject to the media preferences predicted by internet algorithms. Either way, if you are LDS and use the internet in English, you're likely to have seen this story come up wherever you are geographically. 1
The Nehor Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: There are part-member families who must comprimise about how to pay and how much tithing to pay. This could make a compelling case for the family member opposed to tithing. Or to others struggling with the concept themselves. I personally know people who with extreme difficulty paid their tithing faithfully, and endured prolonged pain and stress to make that possible. Some who've sacrificed faithfully may have been expected the institution to similarly stretch itself in executing the purposes of tithing. If all you need is a compelling argument not to pay then I would suggest not paying. Maybe I am just cynical. By stretch itself do you mean operate the church on the margins of viability? Don’t get me wrong. I am willing to forgo things I want or even need to pay tithing but I do not recommend the practice unless it is the only option. Ideally individuals should be saving in a similar fashion if possible.
The Nehor Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Peter Bleakley is a UK member who recently presented at Sunstone London his own personal thoughts of reviving the church by focussing on foundational LDS cosmology. More recently, he's also posted extensively on this story and has articulated several arguments critical of the church's handling of its finances and the tithing funds: you can catch his post and much more commentary in the replies here: https://www.facebook.com/peter.bleakley.5/posts/10158224506176800 Quite the fascinating pack of lies he is sharing there.
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Quite the fascinating pack of lies he is sharing there. I'm fairly sure he welcomes informed criticism if you feel like contributing.
carbon dioxide Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) A scandal in my mind would be Church leaders secretly taking money from the fund to buy big houses and private jets. Growing money is not a scandal. Being good managers of money is not a scandal. Want a real scandal? Look to your government that not only spends every dollar it takes in but is going to borrow a trillion more just to pay expenses. The Church has no debt and if the allegations are true, has over 100 billion in assets. The US Federal government is 22 trillion in debt and growing by the day. Which one is the true scandal and negatively affects people. Edited December 22, 2019 by carbon dioxide 1
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: A scandal in my mind would be Church leaders secretly taking money from the fund to buy big houses and private jets. Growing money is not a scandal. Being good managers of money is not a scandal. Want a real scandal? Look to your government that not only spends every dollar it takes in but is going to borrow a trillion more just to pay expenses. The Church has no debt and if the allegations are true, has over 100 billion in assets. The US Federal government is 22 trillion in debt and growing by the day. Which one is the true scandal and negatively affects people. No need to pick just one.
carbon dioxide Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 On 12/20/2019 at 12:38 PM, mrmarklin said: The reality is that this "scandal" is yet to be one. Just because a disgruntled employee badmouths you means very little. As a tax accountant, you can trust me when I say that US tax laws, particularly regarding organizations such as religious institutions, are Byzantine and murky. Charities are required to give a certain amount to maintain tax exempt status, but Churches are certainly not. Technically a church is not a charity, although according to US tax law they are treated the same on a personal tax form as far as deductions. And what is a religious purpose. I can find several reasons for the church to stockpile money for a religious purpose. If anything, our church should be an example to us. Save or invest excess funds rather than burning it up in material nonsense you may not need. You have less reason to financially fear for the future if you have a large pool of reserve money. If the goal is to have as much money leave the church as it takes in, the church would always been in a risky position. 1
The Nehor Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I'm fairly sure he welcomes informed criticism if you feel like contributing. I doubt it when he is saying that most of the current incoming tithing money is going to investments which not even the whistleblower is saying. 1
carbon dioxide Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: No need to pick just one. If the church actions are scandal, its a good scandal. Since there is no evidence that the church has violated any law, good money managing scandals need to happen more often. Now perhaps the Church if it does have that much money can start spending some of it to help members out like pay the full cost of missions. So I would plead with the leadership on that part but I have no problem with my tithing going to grow the church. Edited December 22, 2019 by carbon dioxide
The Nehor Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: A scandal in my mind would be Church leaders secretly taking money from the fund to buy big houses and private jets. Growing money is not a scandal. Being good managers of money is not a scandal. Want a real scandal? Look to your government that not only spends every dollar it takes in but is going to borrow a trillion more just to pay expenses. The Church has no debt and if the allegations are true, has over 100 billion in assets. The US Federal government is 22 trillion in debt and growing by the day. Which one is the true scandal and negatively affects people. Not comparable. While the national debt is excessive the federal government having an equivalent 22 trillion dollar surplus and trying to make money off it by investing would be an economic disaster. There is also an argument to be made that a manageable debt is good because federal bonds serve an economic purpose. On top of that the federal government is almost making money on its bonds now with interest well below inflation. If someone wanted to lend me $1000 for a year and wanted me to pay back $1020 (and that is generous compared to current rates) at the end of the I would take that deal all day and ask if they want to lend me more. What is irresponsible for a church of individual can be okay for a government. That being said 22 trillion is WAY TOO MUCH and I would and do support tax increases and spending cuts to mitigate this.
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I doubt it when he is saying that most of the current incoming tithing money is going to investments which not even the whistleblower is saying. That's an odd claim when, after giving a brief background, he says this: Edited December 22, 2019 by Meadowchik
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: If the church actions are scandal, its a good scandal. Since there is no evidence that the church has violated any law, good money managing scandals need to happen more often. Now perhaps the Church if it does have that much money can start spending some of it to help members out like pay the full cost of missions. So I would plead with the leadership on that part but I have no problem with my tithing going to grow the church. I think we know far too little to say with confidence that it is good. Furthermore, if those investments are blind, who knows what types of ventures the church is supporting.
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 47 minutes ago, The Nehor said: If all you need is a compelling argument not to pay then I would suggest not paying. Maybe I am just cynical. By stretch itself do you mean operate the church on the margins of viability? Don’t get me wrong. I am willing to forgo things I want or even need to pay tithing but I do not recommend the practice unless it is the only option. Ideally individuals should be saving in a similar fashion if possible. I'm not talking about me. But I can appreciate that for some, it is an issue of trust and some feel betrayed. Members pay tithing on the margins of financial viability and are encouraged to do so.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: ......................................... I live outside the States and have seen the articles in my own generic newsfeeds. However, that is also subject to the media preferences predicted by internet algorithms. Either way, if you are LDS and use the internet in English, you're likely to have seen this story come up wherever you are geographically. I have been wondering about this. Scott Lloyd doesn't think this is a topic that gets broad distribution, but I think that it will get very wide distribution.
Tacenda Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said: If the church actions are scandal, its a good scandal. Since there is no evidence that the church has violated any law, good money managing scandals need to happen more often. Now perhaps the Church if it does have that much money can start spending some of it to help members out like pay the full cost of missions. So I would plead with the leadership on that part but I have no problem with my tithing going to grow the church. Well, then if the church isn't holding up to the bargain of being more charitible on the EPA end, maybe the tax exempt should be denied. But do agree on them trying to be the example. But they aren't always an example, many unnecessary spending in my book.
carbon dioxide Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: I think we know far too little to say with confidence that it is good. Furthermore, if those investments are blind, who knows what types of ventures the church is supporting. The sector that has done the best over the past 10 years has been technology. If what is reported is correct, it would seem to me that they have invested in funds that are tech heavy to produce those level of returns.
Scott Lloyd Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I have been wondering about this. Scott Lloyd doesn't think this is a topic that gets broad distribution, but I think that it will get very wide distribution. Distribution and interest are not equivalent. Anything on the Internet has by definition global distribution. That doesn’t necessarily mean broad interest. Edited December 22, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 1
Robert F. Smith Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Distribution and interest are not equivalent. Anything on the Internet has by definition global distribution. That doesn’t necessarily mean broad interest. True, but I was trying to suggest that it will gain broad interest precisely because it will be distributed widely. Not necessarily accurately, but widely in the USA and foreign countries. Just the raw monetary figures will attract attention, not to mention the strangeness of those oddball Mormons.
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Anything on the Internet has by definition global distribution. Nope, the SLTrib online is still not available in Europe. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: True, but I was trying to suggest that it will gain broad interest precisely because it will be distributed widely. Not necessarily accurately, but widely in the USA and foreign countries. Just the raw monetary figures will attract attention, not to mention the strangeness of those oddball Mormons. I’m afraid we Latter-day Saints are to some degree provincial navel gazers. That is to say we tend to panic when the anti-Mormon attack du jour comes across the transom, not realizing that the average non-member probably just doesn’t care all that much. 1
JLHPROF Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Well, then if the church isn't holding up to the bargain of being more charitible on the EPA end, maybe the tax exempt should be denied. But do agree on them trying to be the example. But they aren't always an example, many unnecessary spending in my book. I'm no expert on tax law, so someone else can address tax exemption rules and if the Church follows them. But I am sick and tired of the complaints on a larger portion tithing funds not going to humanitarian assistance. They aren't supposed to, nor should tithe payers be worried about how funds are used. It's like the understanding of tithing is completely missing among many. As for non tithe payers and non members, it's completely none of their business and they should keep their noses out. 2
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: As for non tithe payers and non members, it's completely none of their business and they should keep their noses out. Nose is in. That's not your call, thank goodness.
Tacenda Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I'm no expert on tax law, so someone else can address tax exemption rules and if the Church follows them. But I am sick and tired of the complaints on a larger portion tithing funds not going to humanitarian assistance. They aren't supposed to, nor should tithe payers be worried about how funds are used. It's like the understanding of tithing is completely missing among many. As for non tithe payers and non members, it's completely none of their business and they should keep their noses out. Got it!
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