JLHPROF Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Just now, Meadowchik said: Nose is in. That's not your call, thank goodness. Why do those unaffected care? If the tithe payers are ok and everything is legal then the busybody brigade have nothing worth listening to. 2
Tacenda Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Why do those unaffected care? If the tithe payers are ok and everything is legal then the busybody brigade have nothing worth listening to. I care about my fellowman. Those that sacrifice to a church that won't be thrifty themselves as far as aforementioned things. And those that have thought tithing really helped the poor and needy, and therefore thought their donation was going to more than it really was, only to find out it was maybe half a penny if the below is true. The parable of the pennies. The LDS Church by its own figures has spent $2.2 billion on charity since 1985 (34 years). This is great and should be celebrated. At the same time, the LDS Church built an investment fund (EPA) with over $100 billion since 1997. EPA's only payouts were to fund two for-profit businesses owned by the LDS Church. This fund was secret and only know to the upper echelon of church leadership. This fund also receives approximately $1 billion per year from the tithes received from the LDS Church. The LDS Church explains this by saying, "the church saves and invests its surplus pennies." This is good fiscal management it would seem. So, let's break this down to pennies. About half of one penny from every dollar you pay in tithing goes to charity. By contrast, over fourteen of your pennies end up in a secret investment fund that has only ever been used to bail out for-profit businesses that the LDS Church also owns. The remaining 85+/- pennies from every dollar you pay in tithing go to maintaining the church, missionary work, building temples, BYU, etc.... FYI - No one is contesting or arguing about the use of these pennies. The fundamental question for today's active Mormon is, do you care that less than one penny goes to the charitable work you thought it was going to or that 28x that amount goes into a secret "rainy-day" investment fund. Is it 28x more important that the LDS Church hoard wealth for some end of the world scenario? Or could the LDS Church quadruple (or more) its contributions to worldwide charities and spend a whole two pennies per tithing dollar to feed the hungry? You can celebrate your half a penny spent on charity, but you also need to justify the fourteen pennies the LDS Church sticks into its own secret piggy bank. That's a 28-1 investment to charity ratio. Just let us know if your conscience/Holy Ghost is comfortable with that. Edited December 22, 2019 by Tacenda
JAHS Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) Last year Michael Quinn gave an interview about the history of the amounts and sources of income for the church over the years. His numbers are based on projections and estimates but he ultimately figures that as of 2010 the church was taking in about 33 billion from donations and approximately 10-15 billion in business and investments income per year. Edited December 22, 2019 by JAHS 1
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted December 22, 2019 Popular Post Posted December 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: I care about my fellowman. Those that sacrifice to a church that won't. Meaning what? Tithing is a scriptural command dating as far back as scriptural history goes. To turn portion of our increase over to the Lord's servants. For use in building the kingdom. Nobody has ANY concern in its use beyond deciding whether or not to follow the commandment. And it's supposed to be a sacrifice. That's not an issue. Sacrifice is a gospel requirement. Seriously, this lack of understanding is why we can't have the law of consecration. People just don't get it. 5
JLHPROF Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I care about my fellowman. Those that sacrifice to a church that won't be thrifty themselves as far as aforementioned things. And those that have thought tithing really helped the poor and needy, and therefore thought their donation was going to mroe than it really does, only to find out it was maybe half a penny if the below is true. The parable of the pennies. The LDS Church by its own figures has spent $2.2 billion on charity since 1985 (34 years). This is great and should be celebrated. At the same time, the LDS Church built an investment fund (EPA) with over $100 billion since 1997. EPA's only payouts were to fund two for-profit businesses owned by the LDS Church. This fund was secret and only know to the upper echelon of church leadership. This fund also receives approximately $1 billion per year from the tithes received from the LDS Church. The LDS Church explains this by saying, "the church saves and invests its surplus pennies." This is good fiscal management it would seem. So, let's break this down to pennies. About half of one penny from every dollar you pay in tithing goes to charity. By contrast, over fourteen of your pennies end up in a secret investment fund that has only ever been used to bail out for-profit businesses that the LDS Church also owns. The remaining 85+/- pennies from every dollar you pay in tithing go to maintaining the church, missionary work, building temples, BYU, etc.... FYI - No one is contesting or arguing about the use of these pennies. The fundamental question for today's active Mormon is, do you care that less than one penny goes to the charitable work you thought it was going to or that 28x that amount goes into a secret "rainy-day" investment fund. Is it 28x more important that the LDS Church hoard wealth for some end of the world scenario? Or could the LDS Church quadruple (or more) its contributions to worldwide charities and spend a whole two pennies per tithing dollar to feed the hungry? You can celebrate your half a penny spent on charity, but you also need to justify the fourteen pennies the LDS Church sticks into its own secret piggy bank. That's a 28-1 investment to charity ratio. Just let us know if your conscience/Holy Ghost is comfortable with that. Again, the false doctrine that a larger portion of tithing should go to humanitarian assistance. 2
Stargazer Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Well, if the Clinton Foundation can get away with what it gets away with, I don't see how the IRS could get bent out of shape about the church's situation. 1
Stargazer Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Actually, I'm rather pleased that the Church has that much reserve available. I seem to recall a particular parable where trustees were given specific sums of money to watch over, and the greatest reward was reserved to the trustee who increased his assigned fund the greatest degree. If I recall correctly, the one who recounted that parable was rather high up in the heirarchy of the Church. Seems like he was the Highest. 1
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 38 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I care about my fellowman. Those that sacrifice to a church that won't be thrifty themselves as far as aforementioned things. And those that have thought tithing really helped the poor and needy, and therefore thought their donation was going to more than it really was, only to find out it was maybe half a penny if the below is true. The parable of the pennies. The LDS Church by its own figures has spent $2.2 billion on charity since 1985 (34 years). This is great and should be celebrated. At the same time, the LDS Church built an investment fund (EPA) with over $100 billion since 1997. EPA's only payouts were to fund two for-profit businesses owned by the LDS Church. This fund was secret and only know to the upper echelon of church leadership. This fund also receives approximately $1 billion per year from the tithes received from the LDS Church. The LDS Church explains this by saying, "the church saves and invests its surplus pennies." This is good fiscal management it would seem. So, let's break this down to pennies. About half of one penny from every dollar you pay in tithing goes to charity. By contrast, over fourteen of your pennies end up in a secret investment fund that has only ever been used to bail out for-profit businesses that the LDS Church also owns. The remaining 85+/- pennies from every dollar you pay in tithing go to maintaining the church, missionary work, building temples, BYU, etc.... FYI - No one is contesting or arguing about the use of these pennies. The fundamental question for today's active Mormon is, do you care that less than one penny goes to the charitable work you thought it was going to or that 28x that amount goes into a secret "rainy-day" investment fund. Is it 28x more important that the LDS Church hoard wealth for some end of the world scenario? Or could the LDS Church quadruple (or more) its contributions to worldwide charities and spend a whole two pennies per tithing dollar to feed the hungry? You can celebrate your half a penny spent on charity, but you also need to justify the fourteen pennies the LDS Church sticks into its own secret piggy bank. That's a 28-1 investment to charity ratio. Just let us know if your conscience/Holy Ghost is comfortable with that. Well said!
Tacenda Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Well said! Copy and paste.
Calm Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Copy and paste. Then give the person who wrote it the credit. 4
JLHPROF Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Well said! 8 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Copy and paste. 7 minutes ago, Calm said: Then give the person who wrote it the credit. Why would they want credit? The idea is still wrong. Tithing is not for charity and humanitarian aid. Until people figure that out this will continue to be a complaint. 3
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Why would they want credit? The idea is still wrong. Tithing is not for charity and humanitarian aid. Until people figure that out this will continue to be a complaint. Taxes, then, at the least. It's that simple. Edited December 22, 2019 by Meadowchik
webbles Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I care about my fellowman. Those that sacrifice to a church that won't be thrifty themselves as far as aforementioned things. And those that have thought tithing really helped the poor and needy, and therefore thought their donation was going to more than it really was, only to find out it was maybe half a penny if the below is true. The parable of the pennies. The LDS Church by its own figures has spent $2.2 billion on charity since 1985 (34 years). This is great and should be celebrated. At the same time, the LDS Church built an investment fund (EPA) with over $100 billion since 1997. EPA's only payouts were to fund two for-profit businesses owned by the LDS Church. This fund was secret and only know to the upper echelon of church leadership. This fund also receives approximately $1 billion per year from the tithes received from the LDS Church. The LDS Church explains this by saying, "the church saves and invests its surplus pennies." This is good fiscal management it would seem. So, let's break this down to pennies. About half of one penny from every dollar you pay in tithing goes to charity. By contrast, over fourteen of your pennies end up in a secret investment fund that has only ever been used to bail out for-profit businesses that the LDS Church also owns. The remaining 85+/- pennies from every dollar you pay in tithing go to maintaining the church, missionary work, building temples, BYU, etc.... FYI - No one is contesting or arguing about the use of these pennies. The fundamental question for today's active Mormon is, do you care that less than one penny goes to the charitable work you thought it was going to or that 28x that amount goes into a secret "rainy-day" investment fund. Is it 28x more important that the LDS Church hoard wealth for some end of the world scenario? Or could the LDS Church quadruple (or more) its contributions to worldwide charities and spend a whole two pennies per tithing dollar to feed the hungry? You can celebrate your half a penny spent on charity, but you also need to justify the fourteen pennies the LDS Church sticks into its own secret piggy bank. That's a 28-1 investment to charity ratio. Just let us know if your conscience/Holy Ghost is comfortable with that. I don't understand this. I personally save a lot of money from my paychecks automatically. I save a lot more money than I give out to charity. Why? Because I want to ensure that I can continue to be helpful to my family and those around me. If I have problems in the future, I can fall back on my savings. When I become unable to do work, I can fallback on my savings and not be a hindrance to those around me. With the church, I would expect them to also be saving a lot of money. I want my kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews, grandnieces, grandnephews, neighbors, etc to be able to access the church as much as I could access the church. I want them to be able to go to the temple and get the blessings from the temple. To be able to go to a bishop and ask for help from fast offerings. To be able to go to BYU, BYU-Pathway, etc. To be able to access all of the resources that the church provides. The church spends a LOT of money for all of those things. To be able to support all of that in case of bad times, the church needs to save a LOT of money. I have stated that $100B is not enough. They actually need to save more. A LOT more. Probably need to double the amount they have saved. Especially since the "Letter to the IRS Director" mentions unfunded pensions. They probably need a LOT more than $200B. 3
Popular Post InCognitus Posted December 22, 2019 Popular Post Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I care about my fellowman. Those that sacrifice to a church that won't be thrifty themselves as far as aforementioned things. And those that have thought tithing really helped the poor and needy, and therefore thought their donation was going to more than it really was, only to find out it was maybe half a penny if the below is true. If only people would pay attention to what the church teaches, we wouldn't have so many people wondering why the church doesn't teach them these things. The church clearly teaches the ways that tithing is used, and helping the poor and needy isn't one of them. See lesson 32, "Tithes and Offerings" in the Gospel Principles manual (available here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-32-tithes-and-offerings?lang=eng) Quote Tithing and Other Offerings In what ways does the Church use tithing funds and other offerings? As members of the Church, we give tithing and other offerings to the Lord. Tithing Tithing is used by the Church for many purposes. Some of these are to: Build, maintain, and operate temples, meetinghouses, and other buildings. Provide operating funds for stakes, wards, and other units of the Church. (These units use the funds to carry out the ecclesiastical programs of the Church, which include teaching the gospel and conducting social activities.) Help the missionary program. Educate young people in Church schools, seminaries, and institutes. Print and distribute lesson materials. Help in family history and temple work. Other Offerings Fast Offerings. Church members fast each month by going without food and drink for two consecutive meals. They contribute at least the amount of money they would have spent for the meals. They may give as generously as they are able. This offering is called the fast offering. Bishops use these fast offerings to provide food, shelter, clothing, and medical care for the needy. (See chapter 25 in this book.) As part of the fast day, members attend a meeting called the fast and testimony meeting, where they share with each other their testimonies of Christ and His gospel. Other Donations. Church members may donate to other efforts of the Church, such as missionary work, the Perpetual Education Fund, temple construction, and humanitarian aid. Service. Members also offer their time, skills, and goods to help others. This service allows the Church to help needy members and nonmembers around the world at community, national, and international levels, especially when disasters occur. Notice that tithing is NOT designated for helping the poor and needy. Fast Offerings are specifically designated for that purpose, as would be the humanitarian aid fund. So if someone is thinking that tithing is being used for helping the poor and needy, then they need to go back to the basics (the manual Gospel Principles is just that) and learn what the church teaches on this topic. I don't get why people are shocked or upset about the Church's reserve fund. I for one am grateful that the church practices what it preaches in this regard. Has it been so long that nobody remembers the hurricane disaster in Houston Texas? (In case you forgot, here's a sample of church help in that area: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/latter-day-saints-prepare-hurricane-harvey). What is the church going to do when the next disaster comes along? We're living in the "latter days", so what would you expect the church to do? Edited December 22, 2019 by InCognitus 9
JLHPROF Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Taxes, then, at the least. It's that simple. Simple enough. I'm good with that. Let's stick to that issue and quit the charity complaint. Under tax law, is the Church meeting tax exemption requirements? Accountants and lawyers weigh in. They should pay whatever the law requires (and probably do). And let's quit with furthering incorrect ideas on the purpose of tithing by tugging at heartstrings. 1
Calm Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Why would they want credit? The idea is still wrong. Because it is helpful if one wants to understand the context of a comment to know who the comment is from. Plus these days there is an understanding that presenting something as one's own stuff is plagiarism, so someone might misconstrue what Tacenda is doing if they don't know her well enough. I figured she just forgot as we all do and I believe she likes to give credit to the people who say things that help convey her own thoughts, putting the person's name in their work is a sign of respect if one is sharing it as good ideas. 1
Meadowchik Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, InCognitus said: If only people would pay attention to what the church teaches, we wouldn't have so many people wondering why the church doesn't teach them these things. The church clearly teaches the ways that tithing is used, and helping the poor and needy isn't one of them. See lesson 32, "Tithes and Offerings" in the Gospel Principles manual (available here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-32-tithes-and-offerings?lang=eng) Notice that tithing is NOT designated for helping the poor and needy. Fast Offerings are specifically designated for that purpose, as would be the humanitarian aid fund. So if someone is thinking that tithing is being used for helping the poor and needy, then they need to go back to the basics (the manual Gospel Principles is just that) and learn what the church teaches on this topic. I don't get why people are shocked or upset about the Church's reserve fund. I for one am grateful that the church practices what it preaches in this regard. Has it been so long that nobody remembers the hurricane disaster in Houston Texas? (In case you forgot, here's a sample of church help in that area: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/latter-day-saints-prepare-hurricane-harvey). What is the church going to do when the next disaster comes along? We're living in the "latter days", so what would you expect the church to do? Weren't tithing monies promised to the poor in the church's beginnings? 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Simple enough. I'm good with that. Let's stick to that issue and quit the charity complaint. Under tax law, is the Church meeting tax exemption requirements? Accountants and lawyers weigh in. They should pay whatever the law requires (and probably do). And let's quit with furthering incorrect ideas on the purpose of tithing by tugging at heartstrings. There is still validity in the charity complaint. There's also the moral question of what industries the church is supporting with these investments. And heartstrings have always been central to the gospel message.
provoman Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 45 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Copy and paste. "About half of one penny from every dollar you pay in tithing goes to charity." Does any of the math involved with the post factor in all tithing but surplus is used for the Church, which is counts as a charity for tax exempt purposes. 1
JAHS Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Weren't tithing monies promised to the poor in the church's beginnings? I don't know of any scripture that says that. Even if that were true (need a reference for that) those members are long dead now. What does that have to do with us today? We live by latter-day revelation on what the policy should be now, not by 19th century policies. When the law of tithing started back then it was "For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church." (D&C 119: 2) And actually it is the same now. Edited December 22, 2019 by JAHS 3
InCognitus Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Weren't tithing monies promised to the poor in the church's beginnings? That was how it was understood in the very beginning before the law of tithing was revealed in Section 119 on July 8, 1838. But it has been a really long time since 1838. From Encyclopedia of Mormonism, article on Tithing (here: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Tithing) Quote As part of the latter-day restoration of the gospel, the law of tithing was reestablished. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery initiated implementation of the principle in 1834, when they pledged one-tenth of all the Lord should give them as an offering for the poor (HC 2:174-75). In 1838 the Prophet inquired about tithing for the Church (HC 3:44) and received the law, now published as Section 119 of the Doctrine and Covenants. The term "tithing" had been used in some revelations before 1838 (e.g., D&C 64:23;85:3;97:11-12) but connoted all free-will offerings or contributions, whether they were less or more than 10 percent. Prior to the revelation on tithing, an adaptation of the law of consecration of property was practiced by the Church to care for the poor, to purchase lands, and to build Church facilities (D&C 42:30-39). The declared spiritual object of that law was to "advance the cause" of "the salvation of man" (D&C 78:4-7) by creating equality in both "earthly things" and "heavenly things." This proved too difficult at the time, especially under the disruptive conditions suffered by Church members in Missouri, and the practice was temporarily suspended in 1840 (HC 4:93). The law of tithing was given in part to fulfill material needs and to prepare the membership of the Church to live the material aspects of the law of consecration at some future time. Tithing has variously been described as the donation of (1) a tenth of what people owned when they converted; (2) a tenth of their "increase" or income each year; and (3) one workday in ten of their labor, teams, and tools to public projects. Today, tithe payers pay a tenth of their "increase," or income. The revelation on tithing sets it apart for other purposes. "Offerings" are to be used for the poor and needy. Edited December 23, 2019 by InCognitus 2
Scott Lloyd Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Calm said: Because it is helpful if one wants to understand the context of a comment to know who the comment is from. Plus these days there is an understanding that presenting something as one's own stuff is plagiarism, so someone might misconstrue what Tacenda is doing if they don't know her well enough. I figured she just forgot as we all do and I believe she likes to give credit to the people who say things that help convey her own thoughts, putting the person's name in their work is a sign of respect if one is sharing it as good ideas. This is true, of course, but I read JLHPROF’s post as a rhetorical question.
Calm Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 3 hours ago, InCognitus said: one workday in ten of their labor, teams, and tools to public projects Flash back to comments on another thread about whether or not appropriate for labor to be used for tithing purposes. 1
Tacenda Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Why would they want credit? The idea is still wrong. Tithing is not for charity and humanitarian aid. Until people figure that out this will continue to be a complaint. Why is it listed in the email that tithing goes to helping the poor and needy then? First one on the list: The Church is committed to helping the poor and needy. Latter-day Saint Charities is a global program that primarily benefits those who are not Latter-day Saints. In times of need and during other emergencies, we partner with many global organizations like the Red Cross to provide assistance. President Russell M. Nelson spoke recently about some of these efforts. And this represents only a small portion of what the Church spends to care for those in need. The most recent annual report shows that the Church’s humanitarian arm has given more than $2.2 billion in aid in 197 countries since it was created in 1985. In addition, through the Church’s welfare program, leaders of the faith’s 30,000-plus congregations regularly help men, women and children with food, housing and other temporal needs, totaling billions more dollars in assistance.
Tacenda Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Calm said: Then give the person who wrote it the credit. It was a post on FB.
Calm Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Why is it listed in the email that tithing goes to helping the poor and needy then? First one on the list: The title of the email is "How the Church of Jesus Christ Uses Tithes and Donations", not just tithing. Is there any reference to tithing in the part that you quoted? If not, do you now see they could have been referring to donations? It could have been clearer about what tithing is used for and what donations are used for, I can understand why some might be confused and think it important if they see a need to separate tithing and donations. I don't see it as important except in the case of when it specifies that all donations go to the humanitarian efforts while overhead is paid for by the Church (whether from tithing or for profit or whatever, I don't care as long as not donations given this claim has been made). See the funding section in the About Us of Latter-day Saints Charities. https://www.latterdaysaintcharities.org/pages/about-us Edited December 23, 2019 by Calm
Recommended Posts