LDS DOCTRINE VS LDS CULTURE: Prelude to Conference

[Alan]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't think this is an issue for non-citizens in the US. Where I live, for example, we use the English hymnal. It includes patriotic songs for two nations, neither of which is ours. The Church is global. The need is for everyone have her/his patriotic songs available, and when there is a single hymnbook for the world, this is impossible.

God Save the King is the national or royal anthem in a number of countries.

For example, in addition to the United Kingdom, it is also an official national anthem of New Zealand (they have two), as well as a number of other small nations of the former British Empire. It is also the royal anthem of Canada and Australia.

It therefore has a more global application than the other patriotic hymns, so should be kept. 😉

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

A thought just occurred to me. What if Sister Nelson and Sister Dew, had some influence on Pres. Nelson? Couldn't a woman have some kind of divine inspiration as well and influence the prophet? I wonder..

Yes. President Nelson said something last conference that I have loved for years. With calm's mad google skills we have been able to trace it back to a couple of women, but have been unable to tell at this point who it originated from. It's possible he got it from one of them,  but maybe they got it from him. I'm dying to know.

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

A thought just occurred to me. What if Sister Nelson and Sister Dew, had some influence on Pres. Nelson? Couldn't a woman have some kind of divine inspiration as well and influence the prophet? I wonder..

Of course! Just think Emma Smith and the Word of Wisdom ...

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Of course! Just think Emma Smith and the Word of Wisdom ...

I believe Emma only disliked the tobacco chewing and spitting, since she had to clean up after the men had their meetings. And if I'm believing the critics out there, Joseph got rid of hot drinks, her tea possibly? In retaliation. But how true, I do not know. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Tacenda

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I believe Emma only disliked the tobacco chewing and spitting, since she and the other women had to clean up after the men had their meetings. And if I'm believing the critics out there, Joseph got rid of hot drinks, her tea possibly? In retaliation. But how true, I do not know. 

If it wasin retaliation, why would he bother with it at all?  He could have just said he received a revelation saying tobacco was okay.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If it wasin retaliation, why would he bother with it at all?  He could have just said he received a revelation saying tobacco was okay.

Well, if I know what I think I know about Emma, she would put up a fuss and tell them to clean up their mess, haha.

I finally found where the story possibly came from, David Whitmer who later became disaffected from the church. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/6d6fxt/the_word_of_wisdom_started_as_an_all_around_joke/&httpsredir=1&article=6038&context=etd   ETA: Per Calm's response to me below, it's page 20. Unable to post, ran out.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Do you know what page or section it is in since it can’t be searched?

add-on:  thanks for tracking it down.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I don't mind colour and favourite, but theatre just bugs me.

How about "centre"?

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How about "centre"?

👎

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I believe Emma only disliked the tobacco chewing and spitting, since she had to clean up after the men had their meetings. And if I'm believing the critics out there, Joseph got rid of hot drinks, her tea possibly? In retaliation. But how true, I do not know. 

Women in those days also disliked their men drinking booze.  The men typically drank whiskey all day long (made the work go better . . .), but those who took the temperance pledge saved a lot of money and made their wives happy.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Alan said:

God Save the King is the national or royal anthem in a number of countries.

A 'royal anthem' is one played when the monarch is actually present. I harbour some doubts about Queen Elizabeth II showing up to many sacrament meetings anywhere in the Commonwealth ...

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How about "centre"?

Centre and theatre certainly make more sense when it comes to suffixes: central (where'd the e go for Americans???), centrifugal (again, where's that American e?), theatrical (another disappearing American e). 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Having served a mission in a foreign country and living in a ward with many people born in other countries the patriotic hymns alway make me feel a bit uneasy.

When I taught public school in Australia, there was and hour or so every week dedicated to religiou# instruction. Any religion (within reason) could offer a discussion on campus that students could voluntarily attend, or get an hour to study or do other work. Rather than ban religion, schools offered students the opportunity to learn more about religion. I liked that.

So, rather than ban all patriotic music, why not choose a few selections of each country‘s patriotic music to insert into their hymn books for singing at the appropriate events?

[Bernard Gui]

17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How about "centre"?

Or Pointe?

 

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

When I taught public school in Australia, there was and hour or so every week dedicated to religiou# instruction. Any religion (within reason) could offer a discussion on campus that students could voluntarily attend, or get an hour to study or do other work. Rather than ban religion, schools offered students the opportunity to learn more about religion. I liked that.

So, rather than ban all patriotic music, why not choose a few selections of each country‘s patriotic music to insert into their hymn books for singing at the appropriate events?

Because 195 countries times 3 ("a few") patriotic selections = 585 hymns.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

Because 195 countries times 3 ("a few") patriotic selections = 585 hymns.

Not if the inserts are country-specific. Piece of cake for competent musicologists or recommended by local authorities. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, rongo said:

This reminded me: my kids are going to be sad when the American patriotic hymns and God Save the King are removed from the hymnbook. They think it's neat that they're in there! I used to tease a 26 year-old companion of mine with God Save the King at the back of the English hymnbook. He was a former skinhead who had served jail time for violence, and upon repenting and changing, was still a passionate German patriot in a good way. He was really dumbfounded by the Anglo-American patriotic hymns, and I would tease him that it had to be God's will, because there they are. 

He still felt that the von Trapps should have been executed as traitors.  

Are you sure he repented?

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

When I taught public school in Australia, there was and hour or so every week dedicated to religiou# instruction. Any religion (within reason) could offer a discussion on campus that students could voluntarily attend, or get an hour to study or do other work. Rather than ban religion, schools offered students the opportunity to learn more about religion. I liked that.

So, rather than ban all patriotic music, why not choose a few selections of each country‘s patriotic music to insert into their hymn books for singing at the appropriate events?

Isn't this what the new hymnbook will do?  Be on digital, but I assume they will have it formatted so they can print up identical to the other pages in the hymnbook and then glue them in.  

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, if I know what I think I know about Emma, she would put up a fuss and tell them to clean up their mess, haha.

I finally found where the story possibly came from, David Whitmer who later became disaffected from the church. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/6d6fxt/the_word_of_wisdom_started_as_an_all_around_joke/&httpsredir=1&article=6038&context=etd   ETA: Per Calm's response to me below, it's page 20. Unable to post, ran out.

So it says "one of the brethren" suggested the revelation be on coffee and tea as well.  I love the idea that God might have decided using him for a *** for tat game was a bit much, so when Joseph asked about the appropriate use of tobacco, tea, and coffee, God tacked on alcohol to the list of forbidden vices to teach the men a lesson.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Calm

[halconero]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A 'royal anthem' is one played when the monarch is actually present. I harbour some doubts about Queen Elizabeth II showing up to many sacrament meetings anywhere in the Commonwealth ...

"The Royal Anthem originated as a patriotic song in London, England, in 1745. Neither the author nor the composer is known. The anthem is performed officially in Canada in the presence of members of the Royal Family, as part of the Salute accorded to the Governor General and Lieutenant Governors and by Canadians at all types of ceremonies and events usually in concert with the national anthem 'O Canada'," - "Royal Anthem," Government of Canada, 2018, https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/royal-symbols-titles/royal-anthem.html.

We actually sang it in sacrament once on Canada Day as our closing hymn. The opening hymn was O Canada.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I will have to read this later, but we've been warned (at least in these parts) to expect the culture to be increasingly stripped away as the Church enters a truly global phase. I'm looking forward to it ... right up until it's my favourite cultural aspect that goes ...

I will believe their resolve when President Nelson shows up for General Conference in a light blue dress shirt.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I will have to read this later, but we've been warned (at least in these parts) to expect the culture to be increasingly stripped away as the Church enters a truly global phase. I'm looking forward to it ... right up until it's my favourite cultural aspect that goes ...

I will believe their resolve when President Nelson shows up to conference wearing a light blue dress shirt.  That one act would probably dominate all discussions on what happened during conference in 2018.

Edited October 5, 2018 by california boy

[Traela]

The loss of Boy Scouts in North America certainly seems to be part of the change in culture.  It's astonishing how many members seem to forget that Scouts is not the activity arm of the Aaronic Priesthood in most of the world.  The change in (doing away with?) Personal Progress is part of that, too.

 

[ksfisher]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

So, rather than ban all patriotic music, why not choose a few selections of each country‘s patriotic music to insert into their hymn books for singing at the appropriate events?

My understanding is that their will only be one hymn book for the entire church (translated of course) in the future.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

My understanding is that their will only be one hymn book for the entire church (translated of course) in the future.

I remember the first Topical Guide insert that the Church published. We glued it into the back of our scriptures. The same could easily be done with an insert of 2-4 patriotic songs and the new hymn book.