"A More Superstitious Age"...Or A Less Receptive Modernity?

[thesometimesaint]

A good part of us has already subverted all our senses to what is measurable and lost the ability to fully receive the spiritual. There are those who still receive spiritual confirmations IMNSHO we have subverted our spiritual side to only that which is measurable.

One of the pitfalls of Science. It only deals with what is measurable. IE; If I want to go from Harmony; Pennsylvania to Kirtland; Ohio I can measure that. Why God wants me to go isn't measurable by any known scientific means.

[thesometimesaint]

Well maybe so, but we normally think of Joseph Smith, Jr. as fairly advanced and he was the one that received the revelation on materiality. If it is material, then it is measurable -- we may not have the technology to do so at present, but that does not mean it is not measurable. Things may be so nearly infinitute as to be beyond practical measurement like the sands of the sea, or in Eliza Snow's Hie Unto Kolob the number of the generations of gods, but they are in theory measurable.

Actually we do know the number of sands of the sea. 7.5x10^18. Lots depends on where Kolob is.

[Stone holm]

One of the pitfalls of Science. It only deals with what is measurable. IE; If I want to go from Harmony; Pennsylvania to Kirtland; Ohio I can measure that. Why God wants me to go isn't measurable by any known scientific means.

Measurable, maybe not explainable probably.

[ERayR]

One of the pitfalls of Science. It only deals with what is measurable. IE; If I want to go from Harmony; Pennsylvania to Kirtland; Ohio I can measure that. Why God wants me to go isn't measurable by any known scientific means.

I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that the prophets of science, through dismissal and derision, marginalize the occult (spiritual).

[Stone holm]

I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that the prophets of science, through dismissal and derision, marginalize the occult (spiritual).

This I can agree with.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't dismiss it. I just don't find any physical evidence that the occult(spiritual) is real. I find plenty of evidence that people believe it is real. But that is a different matter. A better word would be Profits. I'm fine with God. Just as I'm fine with whatever method(s) he used to create this world. So far the best explanation of that method uses Science to do it. I believe that when God finally explains it all I will totally understand and agree, even if that does lead to more questions.

[ERayR]

I don't dismiss it. I just don't find any physical evidence that the occult(spiritual) is real. I find plenty of evidence that people believe it is real. But that is a different matter. A better word would be Profits. I'm fine with God. Just as I'm fine with whatever method(s) he used to create this world. So far the best explanation of that method uses Science to do it. I believe that when God finally explains it all I will totally understand and agree, even if that does lead to more questions.

TSS I understand you think that "So far the best explanation of that method uses Science to do it". That is fine but you do not waste many opportunities to get in a few dismissive digs to those who do not accept the complete evolutionary explanation. That is what I am talking about being dismissive and derisive.

[thesometimesaint]

TSS I understand you think that "So far the best explanation of that method uses Science to do it". That is fine but you do not waste many opportunities to get in a few dismissive digs to those who do not accept the complete evolutionary explanation. That is what I am talking about being dismissive and derisive.

IMNTBHO we all should take every opportunity to correct error, and false statements. If you really want to disprove evolution. Be my guest. I've even repeatedly given you a scientifically sound way to disprove the science. Or you can continue to make dismissive and derisive statements about me and the science of evolution. IE; I've never claimed there is a complete evolutionary explanation. I have repeatedly said that much more needs to be learned. I have no idea as to what the next discovery will be, but I seriously doubt that Evolution of Species will be discarded in favor of Creationism/Intelligent Design books,

[Calm]

Rocks are important. They give us something to stand on. Also there is one rock that without which we couldn't live NaCl commonly known as salt.

And our spirits clothe our intelligence (whatever that is) and in some fashion allow us to communicate outside of our five senses. Simply because one can't at this time measure "spirit" with physical means does not mean it is not a physical element of some sort. Edited June 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

I've never said that Spirit doesn't exist. Just that Science has no way of measuring it right now. I don't know of any scientists, even the LDS ones, that are looking for a way to physically measure it. Who knows but that at some future day we will be able to. But that day isn't likely to be today.

[Calm]

I've never said that Spirit doesn't exist.

No, you didn't. But the way you stated what you stated made it appear as if you believed that "spirit" is something supernatural as opposed to something natural that we can't measure at this time:

If Spirits are governed by the same natural laws that we are. What is the point in Spirits?

[Stone holm]

IMNTBHO we all should take every opportunity to correct error, and false statements. If you really want to disprove evolution. Be my guest. I've even repeatedly given you a scientifically sound way to disprove the science. Or you can continue to make dismissive and derisive statements about me and the science of evolution. IE; I've never claimed there is a complete evolutionary explanation. I have repeatedly said that much more needs to be learned. I have no idea as to what the next discovery will be, but I seriously doubt that Evolution of Species will be discarded in favor of Creationism/Intelligent Design books,

Somehow I get the sense that I have not done a good job of articulating what I was originally driving at. What I was driving at is that it is possible that scientific method may have changed the way our brains work in some manner which actually has caused certain sensory receptors to atrophy or vanish. So we don't know what those receptors were tuned into. Possibly we have machines that now can detect what we were previously able to detect ourselves, and possibly we have not yet detected the existence of whatever the energy or stimuli or whatever that those receptors were tuned into. Quite obviously, our machines that we have developed through the scientific method are detecting things that we never could have detected without them, but that does not mean that the machines are necessarily detecting everything that we used to be able to detect. Not only that, what we can observe through mechanical or chemical detectors is not the same as what we "experience" through our senses, and to a certain extent, not completely, but yet to a certain extent our spiritual experiences are tied into our sensory experiences. For example you might be say in a Giant Sequoia grove with the sunlight coming down in just a certain fashion and suddenly you might have an emotional/spiritual epiphany that was triggered by the visual sensory stimuli -- or you might be hearing a beautiful hymn being sung at a perfect moment and have a similar experience -- you might even on a beautiful spring day have a whiff of lilac which triggers something -- if these examples ring a certain truth to you, then what might we have lost if we have lost some other sensory input? This isn't about the value of science, that is a given -- its about the value of experience.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Stone holm

[ERayR]

IMNTBHO we all should take every opportunity to correct error, and false statements. If you really want to disprove evolution. Be my guest. I've even repeatedly given you a scientifically sound way to disprove the science. Or you can continue to make dismissive and derisive statements about me and the science of evolution. IE; I've never claimed there is a complete evolutionary explanation. I have repeatedly said that much more needs to be learned. I have no idea as to what the next discovery will be, but I seriously doubt that Evolution of Species will be discarded in favor of Creationism/Intelligent Design books,

So that this thread will not be sidetracked any further I will just say I already have and you rejected and made fun of it. This is the last I will say of this in this thread.