LDS DOCTRINE VS LDS CULTURE: Prelude to Conference

[Robert F. Smith]

Karissa Neely, “Adapting a Global Church,” A5-6.

Genelle Pugmire, “Church Doctrine vs ‘Mormon Doctrine’,” A8,10,12,14.

Two excellent articles in the Provo Daily Herald “LDS Guide Fall 2018,” Sept 30, 2018, special section A, online at https://www.heraldextra.com/special-section/lds/fall2018/lds-guide-doctrine-vs-culture/article_831989e7-919b-55e8-a206-110084ffec4d.html .

A good way for everyone, including Bill Reel, to prepare for Conference this weekend.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I will have to read this later, but we've been warned (at least in these parts) to expect the culture to be increasingly stripped away as the Church enters a truly global phase. I'm looking forward to it ... right up until it's my favourite cultural aspect that goes ...

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I will have to read this later, but we've been warned (at least in these parts) to expect the culture to be increasingly stripped away as the Church enters a truly global phase. I'm looking forward to it ... right up until it's my favourite cultural aspect that goes ...

This. I also think that it's not that easy to separate doctrine from culture. Some things that others deem "just culture that can be discarded" are doctrinal, I think. This might prove to be like surgery to remove a tumor that will kill the patient because of how embedded the tumor and body is. And disagreement on whether it's even a tumor that needs to be removed at all. Discussion of the Unwritten Order of Things, and Packer's vs. others' interpretations of unwritten things of vast importance comes to mind. 

One thing I think we all can agree on is that British spellings (colour, favourite, theatre, etc.) should be banished in the Church . . .  

 

[ksfisher]

15 minutes ago, rongo said:

This. I also think that it's not that easy to separate doctrine from culture. Some things that others deem "just culture that can be discarded" are doctrinal, I think. This might prove to be like surgery to remove a tumor that will kill the patient because of how embedded the tumor and body is. And disagreement on whether it's even a tumor that needs to be removed at all. Discussion of the Unwritten Order of Things, and Packer's vs. others' interpretations of unwritten things of vast importance comes to mind. 

One thing I think we all can agree on is that British spellings (colour, favourite, theatre, etc.) should be banished in the Church . . .  

 

I don't mind colour and favourite, but theatre just bugs me.

[rongo]

Just now, ksfisher said:

I don't mind colour and favourite, but theatre just bugs me.

Disney changed on this sometime in the early 2000s. Previews used to read, "Coming soon to a theater near you" and then switched to "theatre."

I find that those in the U.S. who spell it that way are being purposely pretentious, and probably were frustrated thespians in high school. I know that our high school's "Theatre Troupe" is already that way . . .  

British people and people in areas of late British influence are exempt from this criticism. They don't know any better . . .  

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, rongo said:

I also think that it's not that easy to separate doctrine from culture. Some things that others deem "just culture that can be discarded" are doctrinal, I think. This might prove to be like surgery to remove a tumor that will kill the patient because of how embedded the tumor and body is.

Thankfully, this whole process is in the hands of prophets. I wish them well ... and pledge my support and compliance, even if it stings!

[rongo]

This reminded me: my kids are going to be sad when the American patriotic hymns and God Save the King are removed from the hymnbook. They think it's neat that they're in there! I used to tease a 26 year-old companion of mine with God Save the King at the back of the English hymnbook. He was a former skinhead who had served jail time for violence, and upon repenting and changing, was still a passionate German patriot in a good way. He was really dumbfounded by the Anglo-American patriotic hymns, and I would tease him that it had to be God's will, because there they are. 

He still felt that the von Trapps should have been executed as traitors.  

[bsjkki]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thankfully, this whole process is in the hands of prophets. I wish them well ... and pledge my support and compliance, even if it stings!

It might sting but after today, I will be cheering if some things in "mormon culture" go away.

[JAHS]

One might also make a distinction between Doctrine vs tradition.  For example for many years up until 1978,  only men were allowed to give prayers in sacrament meetings. Then the First presidency made the following statement:

“The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve have determined that there is no scriptural prohibition against sisters offering prayers in sacrament meetings. It was therefore decided that it is permissible for sisters to offer prayers in any meetings they attend, including sacrament meetings, Sunday School meetings, and stake conferences. Relief Society visiting teachers may offer prayers in homes that they enter in fulfilling visiting teaching assignments.” (Marvin K. Gardner, “News of the Church,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 100)

As a result women have also been giving prayers and speaking in General conference for several years now. 

 

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

One might also make a distinction between Doctrine vs tradition.  For example for many years up until 1978,  only men were allowed to give prayers in sacrament meetings. Then the First presidency made the following statement:

“The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve have determined that there is no scriptural prohibition against sisters offering prayers in sacrament meetings. It was therefore decided that it is permissible for sisters to offer prayers in any meetings they attend, including sacrament meetings, Sunday School meetings, and stake conferences. Relief Society visiting teachers may offer prayers in homes that they enter in fulfilling visiting teaching assignments.” (Marvin K. Gardner, “News of the Church,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 100)

As a result women have also been giving prayers and speaking in General conference for several years now. 

 

...and women even say closing prayers now too.  And, I've even been in Sacrament meetings where women speak last. It's quite shocking. 

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by bsjkki

[ksfisher]

14 minutes ago, rongo said:

This reminded me: my kids are going to be sad when the American patriotic hymns and God Save the King are removed from the hymnbook.

Having served a mission in a foreign country and living in a ward with many people born in other countries the patriotic hymns alway make me feel a bit uneasy.

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

It might sting but after today, I will be cheering if some things in "mormon culture" go away.

Oh, yeah. I'll be overwhelmingly cheering too. I also just reserve the right to be surprised at some point. I suspect every one of us will be sooner or later.

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

...and women even say closing prayers now too.  And, I've even been in Sacrament meetings where women speak last. It's quite shocking. 

As a bishopric counsellor, I intentionally assigned women to speak last and give closing prayers on a regular basis.

I put together the entire program for our last stake conference, and I had both prayers on Saturday evening given by women and the closing prayer on Sunday morning too.

[rongo]

22 minutes ago, JAHS said:

One might also make a distinction between Doctrine vs tradition.  For example for many years up until 1978,  only men were allowed to give prayers in sacrament meetings. Then the First presidency made the following statement:

“The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve have determined that there is no scriptural prohibition against sisters offering prayers in sacrament meetings. It was therefore decided that it is permissible for sisters to offer prayers in any meetings they attend, including sacrament meetings, Sunday School meetings, and stake conferences. Relief Society visiting teachers may offer prayers in homes that they enter in fulfilling visiting teaching assignments.” (Marvin K. Gardner, “News of the Church,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 100)

As a result women have also been giving prayers and speaking in General conference for several years now. 

Is this actually true? Or, was it in certain areas, but not in others?

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As a bishopric counsellor, I intentionally assigned women to speak last and give closing prayers on a regular basis.

We would put the woman last if she was a strong speaker who could fill time if needed and the man wasn't. You need a good clean-up hitter!  

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

Is this actually true? Or, was it in certain areas, but not in others?

I've seen copies of old priesthood bulletins. It appears it was indeed Church policy. I'm not sure where the 'opening prayer only' thing came from, but it took root amongst older members here, and so we've done our best to eliminate that. Now if we could just get our deacons to stop putting their hands behind their backs ...  When I was in the bishopric, we regularly read out the instruction against this from the handbook, but then their parents would tell them to do it, and parents trump the bishopric in most cases, it seems.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

We would put the woman last if she was a strong speaker who could fill time if needed and the man wasn't. You need a good clean-up hitter!  

On many occasions, I would intentionally select a really strong female speaker just so she could close, but yeah.

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I put together the entire program for our last stake conference, and I had both prayers on Saturday evening given by women and the closing prayer on Sunday morning too.

We also had a majority of speakers in our adult and general sessions be female. If you consider that all speakers in priesthood leadership are male, this seemed about right to me.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[pogi]

43 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

...and women even say closing prayers now too.  And, I've even been in Sacrament meetings where women speak last. It's quite shocking. 

 

I just saw my first male sacrament chorister the other week.

[rpn]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

This reminded me: my kids are going to be sad when the American patriotic hymns and God Save the King are removed from the hymnbook.

In the announcement of the new hymnbook, I think they said they wouldn't be in the universal hymnbook, but that there would be a download library of music individual units could choose to use.   I hope that the patriotic songs (at least the ones that support the scriptures) will remain in that group ---- The US needs people who remember the words and who delight to sing in support of their country.

[Garden Girl]

53 minutes ago, rongo said:

This reminded me: my kids are going to be sad when the American patriotic hymns and God Save the King are removed from the hymnbook. They think it's neat that they're in there! 

 

I will be too... I always loved it when in early July Sacrament meetings we would stand and those hymns would ring out... I can't imagine why they are being removed.  I don't care whether some may think they are insensitive to non-citizens. etc.  This is America, and I sing her praises because I feel fortunate to be here... We've stripped God from nearly everything, and now you tell me our patriotic hymns are being taken from our hymnals... 😞

GG

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Garden Girl said:

I can't imagine why they are being removed.  I don't care whether some may think they are insensitive to non-citizens. etc.

I don't think this is an issue for non-citizens in the US. Where I live, for example, we use the English hymnal. It includes patriotic songs for two nations, neither of which is ours. The Church is global. The need is for everyone to have her/his patriotic songs available, and when there is a single hymnbook for the world, this is impossible.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I will have to read this later, but we've been warned (at least in these parts) to expect the culture to be increasingly stripped away as the Church enters a truly global phase. I'm looking forward to it ... right up until it's my favourite cultural aspect that goes ...

Better not touch the jello and funeral potatoes.

[Tacenda]

A thought just occurred to me. What if Sister Nelson and Sister Dew, had some influence on Pres. Nelson? Couldn't a woman have some kind of divine inspiration as well and influence the prophet? I wonder..

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

I will be too... I always loved it when in early July Sacrament meetings we would stand and those hymns would ring out... I can't imagine why they are being removed.  I don't care whether some may think they are insensitive to non-citizens. etc.  This is America, and I sing her praises because I feel fortunate to be here... We've stripped God from nearly everything, and now you tell me our patriotic hymns are being taken from our hymnals... 😞

GG

When we were in Canada, we had to glue a copy of our national anthem into the hymn book.  Some Canadians see themselves as afterthoughts to Church leadership even though there are more members there than in the U.K. (which had its hymnbook anthem) and Canadians had a long heritage of contributing to the Church, especially if you count the early converts (2500) who joined before the move out West ( though technically British citizens at the time)****. It didn't help in our ward that our chorister was an American and he would have all of July doing the American hymns, even when the Sunday fell on Canada Day (July 1st if you didn't know that) while O Canada got sung once (opening) with two American hymns (rest song and closing).  He even had us singing the American version instead of God Save the Queen.  A few members started to get up and leave the meeting for that month.  The imbalance of attention to our host country really impressed me in a bad way which is why I mention it frequently.

I assume the same sense of not having a real identity when it came to being part of the Church culture and heritage probably exists for many members living outside the States.

When in Russia, there was zip in the hymnbook to sing the praises of that country.  From what I could tell there was a very strong sense of patriotism among Russians even if they hated certain aspects of the government.  They loved their country.  And the hymnbook was one of the things that made the Church an easy target of the accusation of being a foreign American church and therefore not belonging in Russia.

***https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_in_Canada