'fess up – who keeps & uses face cards?

[Five Solas]

I’ve never been a card player.  Well into middle age, I can barely shuffle a deck.  And the reason is simple, apart from Uno and maybe one or two other non-face-card card games, we didn’t have cards in our home growing up.  They were understood to be inappropriate for LDS homes, maybe I should even say—understood to be satanic. 

My wife’s family, by contrast, enjoy playing all sorts of games with cards (and there are many, many games to choose from).  And now I have a nine year old daughter who can shuffle better than I can.  (I’m not making this up.)
I learned a new game last weekend, Five Crowns.  And as I looked at the cards in my hand and their imagery, I thought about how different life is for my kids than it was for me.  I often have occasion for such thoughts.  And then I considered, as the LDS religion and culture have continued to evolve—do LDS still see a need to abstain from face cards?  I’ve never seen any at my sister’s home (devout LDS with four kids, a little older than mine).  But is she typical?

What say the folks here?

--Erik

___________________________________________

He deals the cards as a meditation
And those he plays never suspect
He doesn't play for the money he wins
He don't play for respect

He deals the cards to find the answer
The sacred geometry of chance
The hidden law of a probable outcome
The numbers lead a dance

--Sting "Shape Of My Heart"

 

[Tacenda]

My MIL/FIL would attend the temple every Wednesday for years. And they were/are devout face card players. Pinochle, Ten to One, Five Crowns, you name it. Face cards were everywhere. They even got old cards from Casinos to use. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Tacenda

[Brother Bear]

I’d be interested to hear how face-cards got to be on the no-no list for many Mormon families? Were face-cards thought to be satanic by nature? Was it meant as practical guidance to avoid gambling or other addictive behavior?

[Gray]

I use face cards, but to be fair, it's only for the purpose of summoning Satan. Otherwise, wouldn't even touch them.

[strappinglad]

19 minutes ago, Brother Bear said:

I’d be interested to hear how face-cards got to be on the no-no list for many Mormon families? Were face-cards thought to be satanic by nature? Was it meant as practical guidance to avoid gambling or other addictive behavior?

IIRC there was a statement on cards in BRM's Mormon Doctrine.

[bluebell]

We are big cribbage and pinochle players in our family so we always have face cards at hand. 

[rongo]

It's funny.

Ask hard-core anti-face-carder LDS for documentation on that position (i.e, a CFR). They get frustrated when they can't provide one.  

If they're really good, they might find a very "soft" Spencer W. Kimball statement from the 1970s, but it is very "soft" and non-binding. You can find some further back (Joseph Fielding Smith, etc.).

This is just one of those things for some people, but it really is a very small group of people. 

[smac97]

This article does a pretty good job of tracing the history of the Church's treatment of "cards" (face cards, I think): Playing Cards: What the Prophets Have Actually Said

The gist is that previously "playing cards are associated with behaviors that were not appropriate for members of the Church."  

In 1943, Elder Widtsoe noted:

Quote

“It must be added that relaxation from the regular duties of the day is desirable and necessary for human well-being. Wholesome games of recreation are advocated by all right-minded people. Moreover, the . . . objections [to card playing] are not directed against the many and various card games on the market not employing the usual ‘playing cards.’ Most of these furnish innocent and wholesome recreation, and many are really instructive. It is true that they may be played to excess, but in fact it seldom happens. This is true even when such cards are used in games imitating those with ‘playing cards.’ It is true that such cards may be used for gambling purposes, but in fact it is almost never done. The pall of evil seems to rest upon the ‘playing cards’ handed down to us from antiquity” (Evidences and Reconciliations, Murray & Gee, 1943, pp. 218–19).

However, in 1974, Pres. Kimball gave a General Conference talk in which he told members, "We hope faithful Latter-day Saints will not use the playing cards which are used for gambling, either with or without the gambling."

I wonder if the concern was that "playing cards" could lead to gambling, even if used for something innocuous.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JAHS]

Her are some interesting quotes from past church leaders on this subject:

Bruce R. McConkie said:
"It follows that if members of the Church believe false doctrines; if they accept false educational theories; if they fall into the practices and abominations of the sectarians; if they use tea, coffee, tobacco or liquor; if they fail to pay an honest tithing; if they find fault with the Lord's anointed; if they play cards; if they do anything contrary to the standards of personal righteousness required by the gospel -- then to that extent they are in personal apostasy and need to repent. Members of the Church should not belong to bridge or other type of card clubs, and they should neither play cards nor have them in their homes. By cards is meant, of course, the spotted face cards used by gamblers. To the extent that church members play cards they are out of harmony with their inspired leaders. Innocent non-gambling games played with other types of cards, except for the waste of time in many instances, are not objectionable." (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.113)

President Joseph F. Smith has stated the position of the Church with reference to card playing in these words:
"Card playing is an excessive pleasure; it is intoxicating and, therefore, in the nature of a vice. It is generally the companion of the cigaret and the wine glass, and the latter lead to the poolroom and the gambling hall. . . . Few indulge frequently in card playing in whose lives it does not become a ruling passion. . . . A deck of cards in the hands of a faithful servant of God is a satire upon religion. . . . Those who thus indulge are not fit to administer in sacred ordinances. . . . The bishops are charged with the responsibility for the evil, and it is their duty to see that it is abolished. . . . No man who is addicted to card playing should be called to act as a ward teacher; such men cannot be consistent advocates of that which they do not themselves practice." (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., pp. 328-332)

Elder Widtsoe criticized card playing on the grounds that it was habit forming and a waste of time. He said:

"It has been observed through centuries of experience that the habit of card playing becomes fixed upon a person and increases until he feels that a day without a game of cards is incomplete.
After an afternoon or evening at card-playing, nothing has been changed, no new knowledge, thoughts, or visions have come, no new hopes or aspirations have been generated, except for another opportunity to waste precious hours. It leads nowhere; it is a dead-end road. Dull and deadly is a life which does not seek to immerse itself in the rapidly moving stream of new and increasing knowledge and power. Time is required to ‘keep up with the times.’ We dare not waste time on pastimes that starve the soul."

President Kimball who stated the following:
"We hope faithful Latter-day Saints will not use the playing cards which are used for gambling, either with or without the gambling. As for the gambling, in connection with horse racing or games or sports, we firmly discourage such things." (General Conference, 1974)

Dallin H. Oaks:
"One type of gambling that has been vigorously criticized by our leaders is card playing. Cards may, of course, be played without playing for money, but the relationship between card playing and gambling is so close and the practice of card playing itself partakes of so many of the disadvantages of gambling that card playing has come under condemnation regardless of whether or not gambling is involved" (Dallin H. Oaks, November 1972 Ensign).

Anyone care to change their vote?
 

[Storm Rider]

My father never was LDS.  We always played with face cards in our home.  Our extended family also played with face cards - we are major cribbage and pinochle players.  I read BRM's stuff and discounted it.  Heard President Kimball's talk and ignored it.  I guess, that I am rather hard-hearted or, maybe, cognizant of the fact that if playing cards is a big issue then I am going to hell because of the far more serious things with which I deal with.

[JAHS]

8 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

My father never was LDS.  We always played with face cards in our home.  Our extended family also played with face cards - we are major cribbage and pinochle players.  I read BRM's stuff and discounted it.  Heard President Kimball's talk and ignored it.  I guess, that I am rather hard-hearted or, maybe, cognizant of the fact that if playing cards is a big issue then I am going to hell because of the far more serious things with which I deal with.

Attitudes about these kinds of things and what GAs say about them changes over time. I think what would still remain is that we should not be involved in gambling with cards nor become addicted to playing card games to the point of neglecting other more important things in life. 

[cinepro]

32 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Dallin H. Oaks:
"One type of gambling that has been vigorously criticized by our leaders is card playing. Cards may, of course, be played without playing for money, but the relationship between card playing and gambling is so close and the practice of card playing itself partakes of so many of the disadvantages of gambling that card playing has come under condemnation regardless of whether or not gambling is involved" (Dallin H. Oaks, November 1972 Ensign).

Anyone care to change their vote?
 

While we're on the subject, does anyone here go ice skating...?

Quote

The Sunday theaters and amusements are a menace to the morals and welfare of the people, both young and old. So far as I am concerned, I disapprove most emphatically of all such things on the Sabbath day, and I disapprove of some species of amusements on week days as well ; I believe they are evil, and their influence is bad. Skating rinks are a menace, and at the present time the desire to frequent them is a craze. They are being introduced in certain Stakes of Zion, and the young people are going wild over this pastime, which they carry to excess. As a result of enthusiasm in relation to this so-called pleasure we mark the downfall of far too many young men and young women.

Elder Hyrum Smith, 1907 General Conference

 

[cinepro]

5 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Attitudes about these kinds of things and what GAs say about them changes over time. I think what would still remain is that we should not be involved in gambling with cards nor become addicted to playing card games to the point of neglecting other more important things in life. 

It would have been awesome if the leaders could have just said that in the first place.  

I grew up in a pretty conservative family in the 1970s and 1980s, but we were allowed to play with face cards.  My wife grew up in a very orthodox LDS family, and they weren't allowed to use face cards (they would use Rook cards instead).  But now when we have family get-togethers with her parents and brothers and sisters we play games with face cards and no one cares.

I do recall one year at Scout camp when we would play card games each night and have a lot of fun.  Then on Thursday night, we were getting ready to play a game and a member of the Bishopric that had just arrived grabbed the cards and threw then in the fire and told us we should never play with them.  We had a few non-member boys in the Troop who were a little disturbed by the sudden and odd outburst (as well as the boy whose cards they were.)

Edited January 30, 2018 by cinepro

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

I’ve never been a card player.  Well into middle age, I can barely shuffle a deck.  And the reason is simple, apart from Uno and maybe one or two other non-face-card card games, we didn’t have cards in our home growing up.  They were understood to be inappropriate for LDS homes, maybe I should even say—understood to be satanic. 

My parents never had any qualms with us using playing cards. They didn't want us involved in gambling, but there was never any sort of suggestion that there was anything 'satanic' about regular playing cards.

Now, D&D, that was a different story... 

[rongo]

23 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I do recall one year at Scout camp when we would play card games each night and have a lot of fun.  Then on Thursday night, we were getting ready to play a game and a member of the Bishopric that had just arrived grabbed the cards and threw then in the fire and told us we should never play with them.  We had a few non-member boys in the Troop who were a little disturbed by the sudden and odd outburst (as well as the boy whose cards they were.)

Once at Scout camp, I was teaching some boys how to play "scum" (best simple four player card game ever. No scoring. You do need three decks, though). Another brother from our stake (we had a camp as a stake at that BSA camp) said that we shouldn't be using face cards. He was really upset about it. I told him there was nothing wrong with it, and he asked what my bishop would say about that. I told him I was the bishop of the ___ ward, for what that's worth, and the poor guy didn't know what to do with that. I tried to give him a lifeline and help him save some face, and I explained gently that this is a belief some LDS have based on some very old statements, but that there is actually no doctrine or policy against them, and that they represent harmless fun if there's no gambling involved. 

[rodheadlee]

Canasta, International rummy these are the games I played with my in-laws many moons ago,  it gave us something to have in common. They are all dead now so I don't play card games.

[rongo]

I would *love* to learn Skat. It's a German card game for three players where whoever wins the bid is ganged up on by the other two, but the bid-winner decides the game type, trump, etc. Very complicated scoring, and very complicated because there are different game types based on the particular hand. I've tried to learn using written directions, but you really need to play with people who know the game.

[MiserereNobis]

I don't seem to be able to reply in this thread...

[MiserereNobis]

This is strange. If I talk about my monthly card night with my friends, it won't post.

 

[MiserereNobis]

I think I'm mentioning too many "deadly" words in describing our relatively harmless evenings of hanging out and catching up. Is there some sort of filter that censors posts if they contain certain words? Any reply that mentions the specific type of card game we are playing plus what we are drinking plus what we are smoking and what we are doing with our nickels, dimes, and quarters won't post.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Attitudes about these kinds of things and what GAs say about them changes over time. I think what would still remain is that we should not be involved in gambling with cards nor become addicted to playing card games to the point of neglecting other more important things in life. 

Agreed, but that can be said about any activity and not just playing cards.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Brother Bear said:

I’d be interested to hear how face-cards got to be on the no-no list for many Mormon families? Were face-cards thought to be satanic by nature? Was it meant as practical guidance to avoid gambling or other addictive behavior?

It was in "Mormon Doctrine" which has been largely discredited.

I read that as an investigator and did not even know what a "face card" was.  I thought Mormons were like Muslims and the problem was that there was a representation of a person on the card and therefore they were prohibited and evil.   

Then I was told it was about regular playing cards and the idea of gambling.  Oh well.

I was also told that they were used for fortune telling and so it also has to do with seances and necromancy.   Ouija boards are considered in the same category.  Then we also have tarot cards which are "face" cards because they have faces on them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

33 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I think I'm mentioning too many "deadly" words in describing our relatively harmless evenings of hanging out and catching up. Is there some sort of filter that censors posts if they contain certain words? Any reply that mentions the specific type of card game we are playing plus what we are drinking plus what we are smoking and what we are doing with our nickels, dimes, and quarters won't post.

Bizarre !!  I know certain words are prohibited even as letter combinations so that if you quote a name that has that letter combination in it it will not post, but I had no idea it went this far.  One example is the author of "A Christmas Carol" Charles ****ens.

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

Bizarre !!  I know certain words are prohibited even as letter combinations so that if you quote a name that has that letter combination in it it will not post, but I had no idea it went this far.  One example is the author of "A Christmas Carol" Charles ****ens.

Yeah, I just tried it again and it wouldn't post. All I typed was (without the dashes, of course):

pok-r, be-r, cig-r, gambl-ng

 

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I think I'm mentioning too many "deadly" words in describing our relatively harmless evenings of hanging out and catching up. Is there some sort of filter that censors posts if they contain certain words? Any reply that mentions the specific type of card game we are playing plus what we are drinking plus what we are smoking and what we are doing with our nickels, dimes, and quarters won't post.

I know that can happen with posts that contain drug terms (like, from the pharmacy type of drugs).  Maybe you're using a product name that has made it onto that list.