End times doom and gloom

[CV75]

12 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I believe that right now, this very minute is the best time to be alive in the history of the planet.  Things are far from perfect, and there is still war, hunger, disease and oppression.  But it is better than it use to be.  Christians are not being fed to the lions, minorities are not being lynched in the deep south, typhoid, polio, smallpox, malaria and other diseases that use to kill millions have been all be eradicated.  In the West, women and minorities are beginning to be treated as equals, and poverty is down.  

It is the best time for me too in these particular terms, but not for most people in the world as far as I can tell. Until I can make it the best for them too, I see this kind of egocentric "all is well" paradigm by the "haves" as enabling all the world's problems. I would say that individuals and groups have the capacity and potential to help others now more than ever, since we are ever learning.

Speaking of "all is well in Zion," I think the condemnation refers not only to the self-deception of professed saints feeling at ease materially, but the unwillingness to receive their ease (i.e. the easy yoke and light burden) in the right way and especially sharing it.

[pogi]

The last days are said to be "great" and "dreadful". 

On the one hand, the church is stronger then ever.  We have more access to gospel truths/revelations then any other dispensation before.  We are more advanced in technology, medicine, and economic stability and opportunity then any other time in the history of the world.  The potential for good is limitless and right at our fingertips to participate in.  I think there is more philanthropy efforts then ever before.  We have relative peace like never before.  but with the good, all of these advances bring with them greater potential for evil as well.  And I think we can clearly see both the greatness and the dreadfulness of the last days if we look for it.  We have weapons of mass destruction that with the potential to destroy the world over multiple times at the finger tips of fragile leaders.  We have technology which simplifies sin and indulgence of the flesh.  We have more addictive and mind altering substances then ever before to ruin our lives with.  Our entire financial system is built on monopoly money (a house built on sand which will inevitably fall when the rains come down).  If climate is indeed rising, then we can expect more famine, pestilence, and disease.  There seems to be a rising level of extremism and divisiveness in the world, along with the opposite extreme of apathy.  While we are in a relatively good place right now, I don't think people appreciate how delicate and precarious the peace, safety, and health of the world really is.  As I said before, all it takes is one small viral mutation before we see massive death rates from disease, one financial bubble to burst before it all comes tumbling down, one lunatic leader world leader to start a deadly war, etc. etc. etc. 

All in all, it is easier for us to access and do good then ever before (great), but it is also easier for us to access and do evil then ever before (dreadful). 

[cinepro]

14 hours ago, bsjkki said:

What is your opinion? While we may be living in the last days, are these the worst days so far? Why are some Mormons so negative about the state of the world?

 

As you can see, there are a lot of different ways to approach the question (and even Church leaders seem to take different approaches).

But I tend to think along the lines of Sunstoned, and that by any objective measure, we're in the best days.  But it's easy to get tunnel vision as a Mormon when we're told that it's really, really bad for people to look at naked pictures or videos of other naked people, or that there are certain things we just shouldn't do on Sunday.  It's easy then to look at society and think things are terrible because people can now easily look at naked pictures of other people and lots of people do stuff that we think they shouldn't do on Sundays.

I tend to think that while those might be valid considerations from a religious point of view, God is probably pretty happy that the world is getting up to speed on treating everyone with some degree of dignity regardless of their gender, race, religion, sexual orientation etc., and that advances in medicine allow us to suffer much less than in the past.

Perhaps the easiest way to look at it is to ask your husband what time and place in the past he thinks was better to the degree that he wishes he could go back and live in that time and place compared to now.  The catch is that he can do so but he has to pick any two from the following list:

- Be a woman

- Be mentally or physically disabled

- Be gay

- Be black

- Be in the religious minority

Let us know which time and place he chooses as being better than today, and which two he chooses.

Edited March 14, 2018 by cinepro

[california boy]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I am not sure what women's rights, poverty, hunger, child labor, infant mortality have to do with the world being wicked.  One can have a very wicked society that has no poor, no kids being forced to labor, and lots of rights for women.  The fact there at good things occurring on the Earth does not erase the negative things.  Is there more wickedness now?  Perhaps the answers to these questions will offer a better test

1.  Are more people today keeping the commandments.

2. Are more people obeying the law of chastity?

3. Are more people honoring the Sabbath?

4.  Is faith in God increasing or decreasing?

5.  Is society spending more time studying the scriptures or spending more time on social media doing dumb stuff?

Overall, is righteousness increasing or decreasing?  Secular good things might be important in some aspects but God is going to exchange say Sabbath observance with say women's rights.  God is not going to say 'The people are not observing the Sabbath but they are giving women more rights so that is a good exchange."  So yes there are good things going on.  Much of that however is a result of prosperity at the moment.  Most of the good things will go away as soon as the next depression hits.  The bad things however will remain regardless of where the economy goes.

 

I guess if you believe that how much you honor the Sabbath day or how much time you spend reading the scriptures determines how righteous you are, then you would be correct.  Of course given your standard of what is righteousness, you would also have to agree that the Pharisees were the most righteous group living during the time of Christ.  And how well these Pharisees observed the Sabbath was more important than how they treated women.

Personally I see little support for your definition of what is righteousness.  I always believed that doing the things you listed was only tools to help one learn to be more kind to others, to. raise others up, to heal those that are suffering, to feed those that are in hunger, to give water to those that thirst.  I think that God could care less how much we have read the scriptures or observe the Sabbath and is more interested in how we do treat women.  The most avid scripture reader has little to be proud of if he is lynching some black man or exploting children in his factories. or exposing his workers to harmful disease. And oddly enough, the scriptures were often used to justify these cruel behaviors that is now socially unacceptable.  

[mrmarklin]

15 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I've had a few circumstances that led to debating whether we live in the most wicked times in world history. My husband in High Priests gets frustrated with all the doom and gloom discussed in class i.e.. millennials are terrible, technology is evil, the world is in terrible shape...the end is near. I'm sure most of you have heard some of this type of talk before. I also had an argument that we don't live in the most wicked times in history. While there is wickedness in the world, there are a lot of good people and a lot of good things happening in the world. World hunger has lessened, women have more rights, poverty is decreasing. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/17/aid-trade-reduce-acute-poverty  I also think back to the World Wars, Hilter, Stalin, child labor and infant mortality rates and wonder how people can think we have it so bad? The Gospel is on the Earth, we have a prophet, and busy temples around the globe. I don't think it is so awful out there. While we do have our challenges, I really don't see things as all doom and gloom. 

What is your opinion? While we may be living in the last days, are these the worst days so far? Why are some Mormons so negative about the state of the world?

 

I truly believe that we  live in the best of times now.  Many in the world live in air-conditioned buildings and drive air-conditioned vehicles on roads that the richest King in the world only 150 years ago could only dream of.

Of course there is great suffering, but we are promised that the gospel will fill the whole earth.  As events unfold of course there will be great calamities, but much of this in not new.  A previous generation suffered through two world wars, the curse of Communism (that's still going on!) and a lot of very nasty things.

The earth has always had its ups and downs, and will continue to do so.  But in absolute terms the average person lives better than the average person has in any time in history.  With increasing technology, this will continue to happen.

[Gray]

Things were definitely way better when I was a kid. Not because the world was better, mind. It's because being a kid is awesome.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Gray

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

But in absolute terms the average person lives better than the average person has in any time in history.  With increasing technology, this will continue to happen.

Until science fiction becomes science fact.  We've all seen The Terminator  (bad Mormons!).

Edited March 14, 2018 by pogi

[Nofear]

By many metrics the world is very much improving.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2017/11/30/why-the-world-is-getting-better-why-hardly-anyone-knows-it/

https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-end-poverty/

Other metrics that show good trends include abortion rates, teenage sex, drug use, smoking, binge drinking, deaths from natural disasters, etc.

By other metrics things are not improving like we would like. But, we ought not overgeneralize those vague perceptions to every metric (or vice versa). We older people (of which I am not, of course) can still talk about the vices and shortcomings of them uppity youngins without misrepresenting the facts.

[Jeanne]

All I know is that I would have made an awful pioneer...growing up I was taught..(like all generations)..that we were saved for the last days because we were so valiant.  Ney...I know strong men and women today..but they would have had a heck of time 200 years ago.  Everything was kind of black and white in those days..so spirituality was all in..or nothing.  Just my perception.

So....maybe it is the best of times...but what makes good character?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

By many metrics the world is very much improving.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2017/11/30/why-the-world-is-getting-better-why-hardly-anyone-knows-it/

https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-end-poverty/

Other metrics that show good trends include abortion rates, teenage sex, drug use, smoking, binge drinking, deaths from natural disasters, etc.

By other metrics things are not improving like we would like. But, we ought not overgeneralize those vague perceptions to every metric (or vice versa). We older people (of which I am not, of course) can still talk about the vices and shortcomings of them uppity youngins without misrepresenting the facts.

I think metrics are a bad choice in general for determining whether the world is getting "better".  The subject of the OP isn't whether our living conditions are better, it's whether the world is more righteous or more wicked.

For example, poverty is reduced but greed is rampant.  Abortion rates may be declining slightly but acceptance of abortion is more normal than ever.
Teenage pregnancy may be down but sexting is up.  Education and workplace opportunities for women are way up, but parents raising their own children and birthrates in general are declining.

I know some of these are debatable and may be disagreed with, but my point is that while we may be under the impression that our living conditions are better than at any time in history, I think our wickedness as a worldwide society has been the price.

 

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I guess if you believe that how much you honor the Sabbath day or how much time you spend reading the scriptures determines how righteous you are, then you would be correct.  Of course given your standard of what is righteousness, you would also have to agree that the Pharisees were the most righteous group living during the time of Christ.  And how well these Pharisees observed the Sabbath was more important than how they treated women.

Personally I see little support for your definition of what is righteousness.  I always believed that doing the things you listed was only tools to help one learn to be more kind to others, to. raise others up, to heal those that are suffering, to feed those that are in hunger, to give water to those that thirst.  I think that God could care less how much we have read the scriptures or observe the Sabbath and is more interested in how we do treat women.  The most avid scripture reader has little to be proud of if he is lynching some black man or exploting children in his factories. or exposing his workers to harmful disease. And oddly enough, the scriptures were often used to justify these cruel behaviors that is now socially unacceptable.  

Righteousness is whatever God would define it as such.  I am not aware of God's eternal laws dealing with general issues of gender pay, infant mortality rates, and a host of other issues that the secular world worries about.  Yes how we treat our neighbor would be an issue of righteousness so how we do treat women matters and the individual level but God is not concerned if some business has enough women as executives in a corporation.  Of course there is balance in everything.  Simply reading scriptures and keeping the sabbath by itself does not make one righteous.  But I am willing to bank on the fact that somebody who prefers to read the tabloids over the scriptures and spends the Sabbath at the sports bar probably is not ranking high on the righteousness chart. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think metrics are a bad choice in general for determining whether the world is getting "better".  The subject of the OP isn't whether our living conditions are better, it's whether the world is more righteous or more wicked.

For example, poverty is reduced but greed is rampant.  Abortion rates may be declining slightly but acceptance of abortion is more normal than ever.
Teenage pregnancy may be down but sexting is up.  Education and workplace opportunities for women are way up, but parents raising their own children and birthrates in general are declining.

I know some of these are debatable and may be disagreed with, but my point is that while we may be under the impression that our living conditions are better than at any time in history, I think our wickedness as a worldwide society has been the price.

 

Much of conditions mentioned are better in developed countries.  In third world countries, conditions are not good.  And they can change fast.  One does not need to look far to see how fast Venezuela has fallen off the cliff.

Edited March 14, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[california boy]

4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Righteousness is whatever God would define it as such.  I am not aware of God's eternal laws dealing with general issues of gender pay, infant mortality rates, and a host of other issues that the secular world worries about.  Yes how we treat our neighbor would be an issue of righteousness so how we do treat women matters and the individual level but God is not concerned if some business has enough women as executives in a corporation.  Of course there is balance in everything.  Simply reading scriptures and keeping the sabbath by itself does not make one righteous.  But I am willing to bank on the fact that somebody who prefers to read the tabloids over the scriptures and spends the Sabbath at the sports bar probably is not ranking high on the righteousness chart. 

I think treating women fairly and respectful like you would wish to be treated is central to the message of the Savior. The golden rule doesn’t just apply to men. Women are not asking for anything more than men seem to get with much less effort and often feel they are entitled to simply because they are men.  I think God’s eternal laws do indeed touch on treating women equally  And that includes a fair wage based on their work and not their gender    Women are not valued less in God’s eyes  

Treating women that way equally, with respect and value absolutely not a sign of wickedness.  Either is judging the goodness of others by what they read is sign of increased wickedness. How is your view of what is increased wickedness in others any different than what the Pharisees were doing during the time of Christ?  They too thought their righteousness was based on their authority over others, their sabbath observance compared to others and their knowledge of the scriptures. Wasn’t impressing Christ much.  

[pogi]

57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I know some of these are debatable and may be disagreed with, but my point is that while we may be under the impression that our living conditions are better than at any time in history, I think our wickedness as a worldwide society has been the price.

We certainly see that cycle in the Book of Mormon where greater abundance and improved living conditions tends to lead toward increased reliance on ones own strength with less reliance and calling on the name of the Lord.  

That trend seems to be bearing out in our world today.  Those who are turning from God have historically been the most privileged - white people; and the most privileged of all - young white people (millennials).  Developed nations are increasingly becoming more secular, while poverty stricken nations (sub-Saharan Africa in particular) are becoming increasingly religious:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160422-atheism-agnostic-secular-nones-rising-religion/

[Glenn101]

  I have no way of comparing the age in which we live now with other epochs so I cannot make an informed statement on the matter. The deluge of information, instant (almost) communications, news, etc. is so negative that things may actually sound worse than they are. However I do not care to spend all of my time worrying about the state of wickedness in the world, else I would have no time to do anything that I enjoy. I just have to take care of the things under my control and hope for the best.

Glenn

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

  I have no way of comparing the age in which we live now with other epochs so I cannot make an informed statement on the matter. The deluge of information, instant (almost) communications, news, etc. is so negative that things may actually sound worse than they are. However I do not care to spend all of my time worrying about the state of wickedness in the world, else I would have no time to do anything that I enjoy. I just have to take care of the things under my control and hope for the best.

Glenn

I just take the scriptures at their word.
We are to be at least as wicked as in the days of Noah according to Christ.  Prophecies of the current wicked condition of the earth are numerous.  I see no reason to believe Christ on some things and reject him on others.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think treating women fairly and respectful like you would wish to be treated is central to the message of the Savior. The golden rule doesn’t just apply to men. Women are not asking for anything more than men seem to get with much less effort and often feel they are entitled to simply because they are men.  I think God’s eternal laws do indeed touch on treating women equally  And that includes a fair wage based on their work and not their gender    Women are not valued less in God’s eyes  

Treating women that way equally, with respect and value absolutely not a sign of wickedness.  Either is judging the goodness of others by what they read is sign of increased wickedness. How is your view of what is increased wickedness in others any different than what the Pharisees were doing during the time of Christ?  They too thought their righteousness was based on their authority over others, their sabbath observance compared to others and their knowledge of the scriptures. Wasn’t impressing Christ much.  

Treating our neighbor with respect regardless of gender is central to the message of Jesus.  My point is that issues regarding gender equality in society are not issues that one determines righteousness or wickedness.  Those are secular issues.  The world is not more righteous because there are more women in Congress.  If women are paid the same as men does not change the level of wickedness in the world.  The standards that God uses to judge the world is not the same as the world uses to judge the world.  Is the world a better place than say 100 years ago.  On some levels it is and some it is not.  My original point was simply looking at secular trends has no relationship to whether the world is getting more righteous or wicked.  The only measure on righteous and wickedness is based on gospel standards and what the scriptures declare to be righteousness and wickedness.  A porn company can pay their men and women equally but it still is a porn company.   One can't say that porn company A is more righteous than porn company B because company A shows the women equality. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

There's definitely been mixed messages.

I think you're creating a classic false dichotomy. There is absolutely nothing contradictory or 'mixed' about acknowledging that we live in a time when wickedness and rebellion are rife and also acknowledging that we live in the dispensation of the fullness of times, when more people have access to more truth and live in more physical security and comfort than in any previous time. Note that Elder Uchtdorf counselled against exaggerating or dwelling upon the negatives. That's specifically where the 'doom and gloom' arise.

As Saints, we should be hopeful and optimistic -- all stemming from our faith in Jesus Christ and in His plan. We should be grateful for all that is good, and we should daily labour to make things better for someone somewhere, including but certainly not limited to our own families.

At the same time, it would be silly not to acknowledge the full spectrum of reality. For example, where I live, we are in the midst of what experts are calling a 'youth mental health crisis'. Our kids are well-fed, well-immuninsed, well-housed, and well-educated. They have, quite literally, a world of both information and entertainment at their fingertips. And I revel in all of this. And yet, we can't keep up with all the counselling and therapy and medication that it is taking to keep them from sinking into such despair and sense of purposelessness that they are often resorting to self-harm, including its most extreme form.

Is this a mixed message? Or just reality?

[gopher]

We had about a dozen members of the ward complaining about doom and gloom back in November 2016.  It lasted a few weeks.  Then they all put on these cute little pink hats and marched in DC one day.  That seemed to cheer them up.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Righteousness is whatever God would define it as such.  I am not aware of God's eternal laws dealing with general issues of gender pay, infant mortality rates, and a host of other issues that the secular world worries about.  Yes how we treat our neighbor would be an issue of righteousness so how we do treat women matters and the individual level but God is not concerned if some business has enough women as executives in a corporation.  Of course there is balance in everything.  Simply reading scriptures and keeping the sabbath by itself does not make one righteous.  But I am willing to bank on the fact that somebody who prefers to read the tabloids over the scriptures and spends the Sabbath at the sports bar probably is not ranking high on the righteousness chart. 

If God cares about the women who suffer because of unequal pay and not being treated fairly at work, then He cares about the bolded statement.

[california boy]

38 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Treating our neighbor with respect regardless of gender is central to the message of Jesus.  My point is that issues regarding gender equality in society are not issues that one determines righteousness or wickedness.  Those are secular issues.  The world is not more righteous because there are more women in Congress.  If women are paid the same as men does not change the level of wickedness in the world.  The standards that God uses to judge the world is not the same as the world uses to judge the world.  Is the world a better place than say 100 years ago.  On some levels it is and some it is not.  My original point was simply looking at secular trends has no relationship to whether the world is getting more righteous or wicked.  The only measure on righteous and wickedness is based on gospel standards and what the scriptures declare to be righteousness and wickedness.  A porn company can pay their men and women equally but it still is a porn company.   One can't say that porn company A is more righteous than porn company B because company A shows the women equality. 

I do see where you are coming from.  But, I do think that treating everyone including women equally is certainly not a sign of a more wicked society.  And personally I think it is a more Christ-like society.  What I disagreed with you mostly is your litmus test that how many people are reading the scriptures or how people observed the Sabbath as a gauge of righteousness.  As I pointed out, Christ certainly did not use that as a criteria for how he viewed the Pharisees.  

Maybe I live in a bubble.  I live on a typical block in San Francisco that is a mix of blacks, whites, asians latinos, and every other ethnic group.  We all get along.  We all interact together.  We all respect each other.  We all show kindness and tolerance for different beliefs and traditions.  It has taken the world a long time to get to this point.  I wish the rest of the world would have what I have.  I think for the most part, it is headed in that direction.  And I certainly don't consider that to be a sign of more wickedness in the world.  I see it more the direction Christ was trying to point us in during his ministry.  So at least in my life, I simply do not see the world on the brink of some kind of judgement from God for being so evil that a cleansing is necessary.  Life is good.  Perhaps life is the best it has ever been on the earth. not just in the quality of life, but in the way we treat others.  I certainly am not going to condemn it by how much scripture reading or how people observe the Sabbath.  There are way more important criteria in my opinion.

[strappinglad]

We in the West give grandly, on a very thin shell . A minor glitch in the electrical system can put millions without power. Just-in-time delivery of most goods is efficient but vulnerable so the shelves would empty very quickly. A computer virus can shut down many modes of transportation instantly. Where before it took a one-on-one stealing of a wallet , now 100 million people can lose private info in one hack.

I recently watched a clip about the situation in East Cleveland and this also is happening in Detroit and Chicago and other places and can happen in just a few years . Whole areas of the city are abandoned. Dystopia settles in. But fear not, the public will  always have their " bread and circuses" ( in our age it's sugary treats and I-pads) .

[Calm]

"the most privileged of all - young white people (millennials)."

CFR this is true...generally speaking, it seems to me like their parents have more money to spend, more security.  Parents aren't generally moving in with their kids because they can't afford to live independently, but the reverse.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calm

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

We had about a dozen members of the ward complaining about doom and gloom back in November 2016.  It lasted a few weeks.  Then they all put on these cute little pink hats and marched in DC one day.  That seemed to cheer them up.

You mean when people marched for human rights?  It takes action and brave people to facilitate change.  

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

 As I pointed out, Christ certainly did not use that as a criteria for how he viewed the Pharisees.  

 

On that point yes.  Righteousness is based a whole set of things including loving one neighbor which would include the things you are referring to.  One can be really good on one point and bad on everything else.  One can even take the point that one is good at and pervert it beyond to its intent.  At the same time, an organized crime group can have a lot of diversity within its organization and everyone treat each other with respect.  It can even treat those outside of the organization with respect as long as those outside don't get in their way.  So its great you live in a place where people get along.  Though that is not the rule in the world at least.  People all over the world fight each other who are different.  Lots of places will get one killed if they are not the right kind of Muslim for example.

Edited March 15, 2018 by carbon dioxide