stemelbow Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Increased accessibility of information is not the same as increased acceptance. We have access to more information than at any other time in history. But that doesn't automatically bring a corresponding increase in intelligence, creativity, empathy, or spirituality. And yes the number that accept Christ may even be increasing, but proportionally within the population of the planet? You can google stats just as easily as I can. I'd guess that 1,000 years ago there were far more people who had never heard of Christ as a percentage of the world as their are today. Sure that doesn't mean there are more believers, but you are concluding there are less. I don't know that you can support that claim. I'd say it's a toss up. It could be more or less, as a percentage. I don't know and wouldn't have an idea how you drew your conclusion, other than just assuming you are correct.
SteveO Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 2 hours ago, california boy said: And others blame religion for a lot of the problems in the world. We seem to need a villain. If you view Mormonism as the standard for righteousness, then there is no better time to be Mormon as well. No one is burning your house down or shooting at you through the slats of a mill. You can live your life the way you see fit. That has not always been the case. ‘If the cornerstone of the plan of salvation is free agency, then we live at the best time the world has ever offered. I get what you and others are throwing down. I really do. I said previously that we live in the most blessed, most prosperous nation in the history of the world. No question there. We have never been more free, nor have our liberties been more guarded, as you've noted. I've also pointed out the possible pitfalls of "too much abundance". What I was trying to do with that, was point out that with our free agency, and all the material prosperity--we aren't being wise with our choices. What you and others seem to keep missing is the world's, and more particularly our nation's spiritual health. Material health does not always speak of spiritual health. The BoM has been said to be a type and shadow of our day. You can see more than a few communities that were extraordinarily blessed with material possessions--but likewise extraordinarily wicked. The question was previously posed: name a time and place that is better than now. Materially? We can't be outdone. But can you name a time and place, with as much scientific knowledge, freedom, and material wealth as we possess, where the killing of 60 million infants within 44 years occurred with the consent of a democratically elected government? 1
california boy Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 4 hours ago, SteveO said: I get what you and others are throwing down. I really do. I said previously that we live in the most blessed, most prosperous nation in the history of the world. No question there. We have never been more free, nor have our liberties been more guarded, as you've noted. I've also pointed out the possible pitfalls of "too much abundance". What I was trying to do with that, was point out that with our free agency, and all the material prosperity--we aren't being wise with our choices. What you and others seem to keep missing is the world's, and more particularly our nation's spiritual health. Material health does not always speak of spiritual health. The BoM has been said to be a type and shadow of our day. You can see more than a few communities that were extraordinarily blessed with material possessions--but likewise extraordinarily wicked. The question was previously posed: name a time and place that is better than now. Materially? We can't be outdone. But can you name a time and place, with as much scientific knowledge, freedom, and material wealth as we possess, where the killing of 60 million infants within 44 years occurred with the consent of a democratically elected government? You do known that whether abortion is an infant with a spirit or not is a point that the church has not made a stand upon and which many both within the church and without disagree. So if that is your litmus test, then it is a position that lacks any substantiated facts.
Storm Rider Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, california boy said: You do known that whether abortion is an infant with a spirit or not is a point that the church has not made a stand upon and which many both within the church and without disagree. So if that is your litmus test, then it is a position that lacks any substantiated facts. yeah, no. I did not go back and confirm the number for 44 years, but the facts are the facts - and SteveO has them. If you have facts that demonstrate society has not killed the unborn in massive numbers, please bring it forward. I suspect that what you were trying to say is not what you said. Not sure, but based on your first statement you were alluding to the Church has not taken a loud stand against it comparable to the Catholic Church, which has been more than clear and loud. Of course, then I would say, do we need to be commanded in all things?
california boy Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Storm Rider said: yeah, no. I did not go back and confirm the number for 44 years, but the facts are the facts - and SteveO has them. If you have facts that demonstrate society has not killed the unborn in massive numbers, please bring it forward. I suspect that what you were trying to say is not what you said. Not sure, but based on your first statement you were alluding to the Church has not taken a loud stand against it comparable to the Catholic Church, which has been more than clear and loud. Of course, then I would say, do we need to be commanded in all things? I would say yes, you do need some concrete direction from the church if you are going to gauge the wickedness of the world based on abortion statistics. You would also have to say that every Mormon who has an abortion is wicked. Certainly you can't sit there in judgement over the world and not include members of the church. So is every Mormon who has had an abortion wicked?
SteveO Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 16 minutes ago, california boy said: You do known that whether abortion is an infant with a spirit or not is a point that the church has not made a stand upon and which many both within the church and without disagree. So if that is your litmus test, then it is a position that lacks any substantiated facts. I’d say the church has made its position on abortion very clear
SteveO Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, california boy said: I would say yes, you do need some concrete direction from the church if you are going to gauge the wickedness of the world based on abortion statistics. You would also have to say that every Mormon who has an abortion is wicked. Certainly you can't sit there in judgement over the world and not include members of the church. So is every Mormon who has had an abortion wicked? I would say every Mormon who has had an abortion has made a grave mistake in need of sincere repentance. I was pointing out that abortion is being sanctioned by a democratically elected government, and what that speaks to our society as a whole. I would say it’s also a very serious gauge of the rate of things, but certainly not the only metric. 1
Storm Rider Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 46 minutes ago, california boy said: I would say yes, you do need some concrete direction from the church if you are going to gauge the wickedness of the world based on abortion statistics. You would also have to say that every Mormon who has an abortion is wicked. Certainly you can't sit there in judgement over the world and not include members of the church. So is every Mormon who has had an abortion wicked? I disagree with your language - are they wicked? Are all sinners fundamentally wicked - no. Do sinners do wicked acts - yes, of course. Is abortion a sin - yes. Belonging to a specific church does not void the sins you commit - membership does not remove sin. 1
california boy Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, SteveO said: I would say every Mormon who has had an abortion has made a grave mistake in need of sinIcere repentance. I was pointing out that abortion is being sanctioned by a democratically elected government, and what that speaks to our society as a whole. I would say it’s also a very serious gauge of the rate of things, but certainly not the only metric. 58 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: I disagree with your language - are they wicked? Are all sinners fundamentally wicked - no. Do sinners do wicked acts - yes, of course. Is abortion a sin - yes. Belonging to a specific church does not void the sins you commit - membership does not remove sin. I thought that the church policy was abortion should be very carefully and prayfully considered, but that it was up to the couple and God. Is every person in the church that has an abortion making a grave mistake? I am asking. What is the church position on abortion? Is it considered murder? SteveO, you did call abortion killing. Is that the church position as well? The claim was yours and SteveO that the sign of wickedness in the world today is the number of abortions. You can't say that abortion is the sign of a wicked world and not also call members wicked if they choose to have an abortion as well.
SteveO Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 21 minutes ago, california boy said: I thought that the church policy was abortion should be very carefully and prayfully considered, but that it was up to the couple and God. Is every person in the church that has an abortion making a grave mistake? I am asking. What is the church position on abortion? Is it considered murder? SteveO, you did call abortion killing. Is that the church position as well? The claim was yours and SteveO that the sign of wickedness in the world today is the number of abortions. You can't say that abortion is the sign of a wicked world and not also call members wicked if they choose to have an abortion as well. https://www.lds.org/topics/abortion?lang=eng I think I know where you’re trying to go with this...the question of rape and incest maybe? Rape and incest are not only a vast minority of abortion cases; they’re an extraordinarily low percentage of abortion cases. If you want, I guess I could pull up that data. But for the sake of speeding things along, I’ll spot you a very, very generous 10% of those 60 million abortions being a result of rape and incest. So now you’ll have to deal with ~54 million instead of 60. CB, its an indefensible statistic. And the science is increasingly siding against the pro choice crowd. Thank God the popularity is downtrending as of late. But for anyone who believes in the justice of God,—and we do—that statistic alone is something that we as a nation, will have to eventually answer for. 1
Storm Rider Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, california boy said: I thought that the church policy was abortion should be very carefully and prayfully considered, but that it was up to the couple and God. Is every person in the church that has an abortion making a grave mistake? I am asking. What is the church position on abortion? Is it considered murder? SteveO, you did call abortion killing. Is that the church position as well? The claim was yours and SteveO that the sign of wickedness in the world today is the number of abortions. You can't say that abortion is the sign of a wicked world and not also call members wicked if they choose to have an abortion as well. The Church's stance is as follows: "Human life is a sacred gift from God. Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God. Church members who submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions may lose their membership in the Church. Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer. When a child is conceived out of wedlock, the best option is for the mother and father of the child to marry and work toward establishing an eternal family relationship. If a successful marriage is unlikely, they should place the child for adoption, preferably through LDS Family Services." Cal, I don't think there is more to say. 1
california boy Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: The Church's stance is as follows: "Human life is a sacred gift from God. Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God. Church members who submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions may lose their membership in the Church. Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer. When a child is conceived out of wedlock, the best option is for the mother and father of the child to marry and work toward establishing an eternal family relationship. If a successful marriage is unlikely, they should place the child for adoption, preferably through LDS Family Services." Cal, I don't think there is more to say. My belief on abortion is the same as the church. However, I don't believe that every person who has an abortion is wicked and equivalent to murder. I am not getting that kind of viewpoint from the church policy as well. As far as what is best for the child, I think that is a very individual answer depending on circumstance. Not everyone is in a good place to raise a child. I am also not willing to judge the world's wickedness based on this one litmus test. Of course there is a lot of evil in the world. There always has been. Entire nations were conquered, the men killed and massive amounts of women and children were put into slavery. Slave owners could do whatever they wanted to their slaves including rape. Personally that sounds pretty wicked. Yet Christ did not come. Is today worse than that? In my opinion, no. You balance that kind of wickedness along with all the many things that are so much better than ever in the history of the world, and I just can't get on board with the whole doom and gloom, end of days, Christ coming any minute, kind of assessment of world conditions.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, Calm said: http://checkyourfact.com/2017/07/31/fact-check-is-human-trafficking-worse-than-its-ever-been-in-the-history-of-the-world/ "Statistics on contemporary and historical human trafficking, however, are contested. Experts have raised questions about the accuracy of statistical estimates of the number of human trafficking victims due to a lack of empirical data. Experts don't know if 1 in 100 American children (or 300,000 to 400,000) are victims of trafficking every year? I got the statistic from Rep Joyce Beatty and a Fox News article. 13 hours ago, sunstoned said: You did not answer my question. I claim that today, right.now.this.very.second it the best time in the history of mankind to be alive. No other time in history offers the quality of life than today does. If you dispute this (and apparently you are) then identify a time in the history of the world that is better than now. 4 Ne. 1: 16 11 hours ago, california boy said: we live at the best time the world has ever offered. God is not a liar 2 Tim 3 : 1 - 3 1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Edited March 29, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
SteveO Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 44 minutes ago, california boy said: My belief on abortion is the same as the church. However, I don't believe that every person who has an abortion is wicked and equivalent to murder. I am not getting that kind of viewpoint from the church policy as well. As far as what is best for the child, I think that is a very individual answer depending on circumstance. Not everyone is in a good place to raise a child. I am also not willing to judge the world's wickedness based on this one litmus test. Of course there is a lot of evil in the world. There always has been. Entire nations were conquered, the men killed and massive amounts of women and children were put into slavery. Slave owners could do whatever they wanted to their slaves including rape. Personally that sounds pretty wicked. Yet Christ did not come. Is today worse than that? In my opinion, no. You balance that kind of wickedness along with all the many things that are so much better than ever in the history of the world, and I just can't get on board with the whole doom and gloom, end of days, Christ coming any minute, kind of assessment of world conditions. I just took my sleeping pill, and there’s some stuff I do want to touch on. I’ll close out by leaving you with this: in your view, what would be the sort of wickedness required to precede the second coming? I’ve never really viewed it as “this generation is the worst ever and the Savior has to return after them”. I’ve always viewed it as a cumulative effect. The constant trudge of sin on the earth. Many ways I got to sleep
Storm Rider Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, california boy said: My belief on abortion is the same as the church. However, I don't believe that every person who has an abortion is wicked and equivalent to murder. I am not getting that kind of viewpoint from the church policy as well. As far as what is best for the child, I think that is a very individual answer depending on circumstance. Not everyone is in a good place to raise a child. I am also not willing to judge the world's wickedness based on this one litmus test. Of course there is a lot of evil in the world. There always has been. Entire nations were conquered, the men killed and massive amounts of women and children were put into slavery. Slave owners could do whatever they wanted to their slaves including rape. Personally that sounds pretty wicked. Yet Christ did not come. Is today worse than that? In my opinion, no. You balance that kind of wickedness along with all the many things that are so much better than ever in the history of the world, and I just can't get on board with the whole doom and gloom, end of days, Christ coming any minute, kind of assessment of world conditions. It is all a matter of perspective. Obviously, abortions are not a big deal for you and can easily be overlooked - convenience matters for some folks for a lot of different reasons. Enough said. For you, slavery is the biggest issue and overwhelms all others - I got it. You are exaggerating quite a bit there and my position has very little to do with what you said. Yet, that is okay. We are good enough friends to agree to disagree. I guess I am not getting the Jesus coming back thing you are talking about. Do I think he will return one day? yes. Do I think these are the latter days? Yes - for a LDS that is sort of a DUH question given the name of the Church. Do I think his return is imminent? No idea, but I don't think so. I have no clue as to when he will return. As far as I can understand scripture we have a ways to go. However, I would still counsel you to keep your lamp full. His Peace be your constant joy
sunstoned Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 14 hours ago, JLHPROF said: That depends on which measuring statistic you are using. Many things ARE better today. But the increase in people that identify as atheist is frequently documented. So things were better when more people did their best to follow God and Christ. And fewer people mistakenly taught that there was no God. The measurements that I am using are quality of life. Medical care, enough food, crime, etc. To me that is what really counts. Not whether someone believes the way I think they should believe or not. In the middle ages in Europe, almost everyone was a Christian. What difference did that make. It was a suck time to live in my opinion.
rodheadlee Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 32 Now learn a parable of the afig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that ait is near, even at the bdoors.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, california boy said: My belief on abortion is the same as the church. However, I don't believe that every person who has an abortion is wicked and equivalent to murder. I am not getting that kind of viewpoint from the church policy as well. As far as what is best for the child, I think that is a very individual answer depending on circumstance. Not everyone is in a good place to raise a child. When does human life begin? 37 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: It is all a matter of perspective. Obviously, abortions are not a big deal for you and can easily be overlooked - convenience matters for some folks for a lot of different reasons. Same question
JLHPROF Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 17 minutes ago, sunstoned said: The measurements that I am using are quality of life. Medical care, enough food, crime, etc. To me that is what really counts. Not whether someone believes the way I think they should believe or not. In the middle ages in Europe, almost everyone was a Christian. What difference did that make. It was a suck time to live in my opinion. Sure, but this thread topic contrasts end times prophecy with the idea that quality of life is high. They aren't mutually exclusive. The fact that our lives are less difficult doesn't impact the wickedness or righteousness of our world today. So whether the world is getting better or worse really does depend on which measuring stick we choose to use.
california boy Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: When does human life begin? Same question There is no consensus on that answer
california boy Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: It is all a matter of perspective. Obviously, abortions are not a big deal for you and can easily be overlooked - convenience matters for some folks for a lot of different reasons. Enough said. For you, slavery is the biggest issue and overwhelms all others - I got it. You are exaggerating quite a bit there and my position has very little to do with what you said. Yet, that is okay. We are good enough friends to agree to disagree. I guess I am not getting the Jesus coming back thing you are talking about. Do I think he will return one day? yes. Do I think these are the latter days? Yes - for a LDS that is sort of a DUH question given the name of the Church. Do I think his return is imminent? No idea, but I don't think so. I have no clue as to when he will return. As far as I can understand scripture we have a ways to go. However, I would still counsel you to keep your lamp full. His Peace be your constant joy I agree with most of what you wrote except your accusation that I think abortion is no big deal. Since I stated in the quote that my position is exactly the same as the churches, you either didn’t read that or believe that the church also believes abortion is no big deal. A position I doubt you believe. And yes, I believe slavery of women and children, murder of all men of entire nations is just as wicked ad abortion Edited March 29, 2018 by california boy 1
california boy Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 2 hours ago, SteveO said: I just took my sleeping pill, and there’s some stuff I do want to touch on. I’ll close out by leaving you with this: in your view, what would be the sort of wickedness required to precede the second coming? I’ve never really viewed it as “this generation is the worst ever and the Savior has to return after them”. I’ve always viewed it as a cumulative effect. The constant trudge of sin on the earth. Many ways I got to sleep I believe Christ will return when the time is right. I don’t believe he is waiting for the world to reach some wickedness meter. Sweet dreams
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 24 minutes ago, california boy said: There is no consensus on that answer So without a consensus how can you have a position? If there is no consensus it means there is a possibility that abortion can be just as bad as Infanticide.
california boy Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 9 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: So without a consensus how can you have a position? If there is no consensus it means there is a possibility that abortion can be just as bad as Infanticide. Newsflash. One does not need to have a consensus among a group or the world in order to have an opinion or belief.
SteveO Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 11 hours ago, sunstoned said: The measurements that I am using are quality of life. Medical care, enough food, crime, etc. To me that is what really counts. Not whether someone believes the way I think they should believe or not. In the middle ages in Europe, almost everyone was a Christian. What difference did that make. It was a suck time to live in my opinion. Ok, but on a Mormon discussion board, you shouldn’t be surprised by the “spiritual” metric being used. 10 hours ago, california boy said: I believe Christ will return when the time is right. I don’t believe he is waiting for the world to reach some wickedness meter. Nor do I. I’m satisfied with “when the time is right”. I think it is counterproductive to constantly be focused on the apocalypse. But it is kind of in human nature to desire closure or a finality. Maybe validation? Anyways, good talking to you 2
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