Calm Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Not sure what happened to the "create option"? Anyone else having problems? Looks like you are on limited now, happens to posters who create too many threads on pretty much the same topic. Edited March 16, 2018 by Calm 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, california boy said: Sorry, but this article looks like it is m making up vague accusations without any actual link to any data. Did I miss something? Did you read the entire 35-page study that the Newsweek article is reporting on? It's hyperlinked in the second paragraph. One of the refugee families that I've worked with over the past year is Iraqi Christians. They lived in a small town that was entirely Christian before hostilities broke out. To their knowledge, they're the only ones who survived. Edited March 16, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 You may prefer reports from the Guardian: 'Christians flee growing persecution in Africa and Middle East' 'Christians in Egypt face unprecedented persecution, report says' Or maybe from the Huffington Post: 'The Persecution Of Christians In The Middle East'
Calm Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You may prefer reports from the Guardian: 'Christians flee growing persecution in Africa and Middle East' 'Christians in Egypt face unprecedented persecution, report says' Or maybe from the Huffington Post: 'The Persecution Of Christians In The Middle East' I wonder if Christians are now top persecuted group in these countries because Jews were already pushed out. From wiki : "The above table represents Jews that number at least a few dozen per country. Reports exist of Jewish communities remaining in other territories in the low single digits that are on the verge of disappearing, particularly in the Muslim world, as their reaction to the birth of Israel in 1948 was the retaliatory persecution of Jews in nearly all Muslim lands; these are often of historical interest as they represent the remnant of much larger Jewish populations. For example, Egypt had a Jewish community of 80,000 in the early 20th century that numbered fewer than 40 as of 2014, mainly because of the forced expulsion movements to Israel and other countries at that time.[69]Afghanistan may have only one Jew left, Zablon Simintov, despite a 2,000 year history of Jewish presence.[70] In Syria, another ancient Jewish community saw mass exodus at the end of the 20th century and numbered fewer than 20 in the midst of the Syrian Civil War.[71]The size of the Jewish community in Indonesia has been variously given as 65, 100, or 18 at most over the last 50 years." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country Christianity isn't generally seen in my experience (limited to primarily Christian if religious countries) as an ethnic attribute while other religions are linked to ethnicity. Perhaps this leads to persecution of nonChristian faiths being seen as not religious persecution, but racism and therefore both less tolerated and less measured as religious persecution, Edited March 16, 2018 by Calm
juliann Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 On 3/13/2018 at 8:08 PM, bsjkki said: I've had a few circumstances that led to debating whether we live in the most wicked times in world history. My husband in High Priests gets frustrated with all the doom and gloom discussed in class i.e.. millennials are terrible, technology is evil, the world is in terrible shape...the end is near. I'm sure most of you have heard some of this type of talk before. I also had an argument that we don't live in the most wicked times in history. While there is wickedness in the world, there are a lot of good people and a lot of good things happening in the world. World hunger has lessened, women have more rights, poverty is decreasing. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/17/aid-trade-reduce-acute-poverty I also think back to the World Wars, Hilter, Stalin, child labor and infant mortality rates and wonder how people can think we have it so bad? The Gospel is on the Earth, we have a prophet, and busy temples around the globe. I don't think it is so awful out there. While we do have our challenges, I really don't see things as all doom and gloom. What is your opinion? While we may be living in the last days, are these the worst days so far? Why are some Mormons so negative about the state of the world? I always use one of Elder Packer's final talks where he assured the youth that they and their grandchildren would have full lives. I have never understood the gleeful obsession with watching everyone suffer and die horrible deaths so they could enjoy their self-claimed rewards when Christ returned. Has anyone who thinks destroying the world is awesome thought that they and their children were going to be the ones burning? 4
juliann Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 22 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: The Gospel Principles teaches "Many of the signs are terrifying and dreadful. The prophets have warned that the earth will experience great turmoil, wickedness, war, and suffering. The prophet Daniel said that the time before the Second Coming would be a time of trouble such as the earth has never known (see Daniel 12:1). The Lord said, “The love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound” (D&C 45:27). “And all things shall be in commotion; and … fear shall come upon all people” (D&C 88:91). We can expect earthquakes, disease, famines, great storms, lightnings, and thunder (see Matthew 24:7; D&C 88:90). Hailstorms will destroy the crops of the earth (see D&C 29:16). Jesus told His disciples that war would fill the earth: “Ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. … For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” (Matthew 24:6–7). The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “Be not discouraged when we tell you of perilous times, for they must shortly come, for the sword, famine, and pestilence are approaching. There shall be great destructions upon the face of this land, for ye need not suppose that one jot or tittle of the prophecies of all the holy prophets shall fail, and there are many that remain to be fulfilled yet” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 252)." I believe the scriptures. So has everyone since Jesus was resurrected. What makes this particular time period more sure than any other time? Why are you right when even JS was wrong? 3
The Nehor Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Not sure what happened to the "create option"? Anyone else having problems? The inevitable happened. 3
sunstoned Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 23 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: The Gospel Principles teaches "Many of the signs are terrifying and dreadful. The prophets have warned that the earth will experience great turmoil, wickedness, war, and suffering. The prophet Daniel said that the time before the Second Coming would be a time of trouble such as the earth has never known (see Daniel 12:1). The Lord said, “The love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound” (D&C 45:27). “And all things shall be in commotion; and … fear shall come upon all people” (D&C 88:91). We can expect earthquakes, disease, famines, great storms, lightnings, and thunder (see Matthew 24:7; D&C 88:90). Hailstorms will destroy the crops of the earth (see D&C 29:16). Jesus told His disciples that war would fill the earth: “Ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. … For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” (Matthew 24:6–7). The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “Be not discouraged when we tell you of perilous times, for they must shortly come, for the sword, famine, and pestilence are approaching. There shall be great destructions upon the face of this land, for ye need not suppose that one jot or tittle of the prophecies of all the holy prophets shall fail, and there are many that remain to be fulfilled yet” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 252)." I believe the scriptures. My post was factual. I believe in facts and reason. So does the late great Stephen Hawking. "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win, because it works." --- Stephen Hawking
Calm Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 54 minutes ago, sunstoned said: My post was factual. I believe in facts and reason. So does the late great Stephen Hawking. "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win, because it works." --- Stephen Hawking This assumes the authority isn't real. 2
california boy Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Did you read the entire 35-page study that the Newsweek article is reporting on? It's hyperlinked in the second paragraph. One of the refugee families that I've worked with over the past year is Iraqi Christians. They lived in a small town that was entirely Christian before hostilities broke out. To their knowledge, they're the only ones who survived. Thanks. That is what I was looking for
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, california boy said: Thanks. That is what I was looking for No worries.
Marginal Gains Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 18 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Here we go again with metrics. This world could be a utopia to live in, but if those living in it are moving further from God than ever before then it's still worse than ever before. It really doesn't matter what crime stats or social development stats we quote. None of these provide conclusive evidence of the righteousness or wickedness of the world today. We had a thread directly related to this topic a few months back - http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69492-the-lord-preaching-his-own-sermons/ I don't recommend doom and gloom, but we are a Millennialist religion after all. Yup, broad biased generalisations are much better when you don’t have to support them with metrics.
JLHPROF Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Yup, broad biased generalisations are much better when you don’t have to support them with metrics. We are speaking of spiritual and faith related issues. Do you really believe you can measure wickedness and righteousness using stats? That crime rates and social "progress" indicate whether we are moving closer to or further from God? 1
stemelbow Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 11 hours ago, Calm said: Looks like you are on limited now, happens to posters who create too many threads on pretty much the same topic. It also happens to posters for no apparent reason at all. Follow the rules, be polite to a reasonable extent, but dare to question a certain poster or two and voila! on limited.
bluebell Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Calm said: This assumes the authority isn't real. It also assumes that believing in religious authority cannot be based on observation or reason. Edited March 16, 2018 by bluebell
Marginal Gains Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: We are speaking of spiritual and faith related issues. Do you really believe you can measure wickedness and righteousness using stats? That crime rates and social "progress" indicate whether we are moving closer to or further from God? This is your problem, not mine. One person’s wickedness is another’s righteousness. Crime rates and social progress are clearly measurable, but against a subjective amorphous entity for which there is no objective evidence...well...you might as well be measuring how unicorns feel about the latest World Series winner.... Whatever helps you sleep at night, or feeds your need to be pompously self-righteous, I suppose. Meanwhile, and despite whatever “God” is or isn’t, the world gets safer, more humane, less discriminatory with every generation that shuns religion in favour of reality. Go figure... Edited March 16, 2018 by Marginal Gains
california boy Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: We are speaking of spiritual and faith related issues. Do you really believe you can measure wickedness and righteousness using stats? That crime rates and social "progress" indicate whether we are moving closer to or further from God? Yes. Otherwise it is just fear
stemelbow Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Calm said: This assumes the authority isn't real. Not really. Authority could be real, as you call it, and Hawking's point could still work. That is it is possibly true that real authority doesn't work better than observation and reason. The quote itself doesn't offer the assumption that authority is real or not. It's applicable either way. One who presumes his/her religion really does have authority while others do not, in order to think that authority still works over observation and reason. Edited March 16, 2018 by stemelbow
JLHPROF Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 32 minutes ago, california boy said: Yes. Otherwise it is just fear Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. 39 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: This is your problem, not mine. One person’s wickedness is another’s righteousness. Crime rates and social progress are clearly measurable, but against a subjective amorphous entity for which there is no objective evidence...well...you might as well be measuring how unicorns feel about the latest World Series winner.... Whatever helps you sleep at night, or feeds your need to be pompously self-righteous, I suppose. Meanwhile, and despite whatever “God” is or isn’t, the world gets safer, more humane, less discriminatory with every generation that shuns religion in favour of reality. Go figure... This is many things, but "my problem" isn't one of them. Righteousness is measured by closeness to God, wickedness by distance from God. If you think I'm self-righteous you have no idea how far from God I generally feel, but I am working on fixing that. The world on the other hand seems extremely pleased with itself for moving further from God, as evidenced in a small way by your post. 1
pogi Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 19 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: 'Did Prohibition Really Work? Alcohol Prohibition as a Public Health Innovation' I am trying to start a new thread, but it is giving me troubles. The reply I have will not submit in this thread or if I try creating a new one. Annoying!!! I might have to try again on my home computer tonight.
california boy Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. This is many things, but "my problem" isn't one of them. Righteousness is measured by closeness to God, wickedness by distance from God. If you think I'm self-righteous you have no idea how far from God I generally feel, but I am working on fixing that. The world on the other hand seems extremely pleased with itself for moving further from God, as evidenced in a small way by your post. You do realize that your judgement of the world moving further from God is just as baseless as your claims of wickedness. You really have no idea what is in the hearts of most people on earth.
stemelbow Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, california boy said: You do realize that your judgement of the world moving further from God is just as baseless as your claims of wickedness. You really have no idea what is in the hearts of most people on earth. Clapping (sorry, can't just give a rep point these days).
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, juliann said: So has everyone since Jesus was resurrected. What makes this particular time period more sure than any other time? Why are you right when even JS was wrong? It is not the opinion of Joseph Smith. The scriptures say we are in the last days. The prophets say we are in the last days. God is right and I do believe in the power of revelation. Just because our prophets are not perfect doesn't mean the prophets can't tell the difference between the spirit and their own emotions. The prophets are experts on revelation. I don't believe God would call someone that was clueless about the spirit. 19 hours ago, Calm said: Looks like you are on limited now, happens to posters who create too many threads on pretty much the same topic. What is limited? Does it mean I can't create new topics? If so how sad, I wanted to create a new topic on the new drug that threatens our society. I guess I will just have to accept my new reality. 22 hours ago, pogi said: Yes, that produced incredible results with the prohibition of alcohol The united states shouldn't tolerate pornography. If you think prohibition doesn't work then why have any laws at all? Laws would be useless if prohibition doesn't work. Countries like Kuwait or Macau that punish pornography are very prosperous and religious. If pornography doesn't stop in the US, wickedness and sexual violence is going to rise in the US. In all general conferences our general authorities keep warning us about the dangers of pornography. One in three women in pornographic videos are sex slaves or were forced to do it. Pornography is sex slavery. With the rise of so much pornography we can't say our world is getting better. Edited March 16, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
SamuelTheLamanite Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 16 hours ago, sunstoned said: My post was factual. I believe in facts and reason. So does the late great Stephen Hawking. "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win, because it works." --- Stephen Hawking God knows all the facts. I believe in the scriptures. I believe the prophets have the ability to tell the difference between the spirit and their own emotions. It is a well known fact that pornography is destructive and 1 in three women are sex slaves in pornographic videos. With the rise of pornography how can you say the world is getting better? With the rise of secularism and attacks on religious freedom our world isn't progressing. 1 hour ago, california boy said: You do realize that your judgement of the world moving further from God is just as baseless as your claims of wickedness. You really have no idea what is in the hearts of most people on earth. It is not his judgement, it is God himself talking to us in the scriptures.
juliann Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: It is not the opinion of Joseph Smith. The scriptures say we are in the last days. The prophets say we are in the last days. That was my point. JS thought he was in the last days. And he was wrong. Just as every Mormon of every generation who has thought the same thing was wrong. And we will be just as wrong because what everyone seems to forget is no one knows. And none of the "signs" (which are so vague they are almost useless) are any worse than in any other era. Get back to me when we have anything approaching the Plague or the World Wars going on. 1
Recommended Posts