mnn727 Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 It sure seems like the Lord is starting to Preach His own Sermons to me. Your thoughts? Quote “Do you think there is calamity abroad now among the people? Not much. All we have yet heard and all we have experienced is scarcely a preface to the sermon that is going to be preached. When the testimony of the Elders ceases to be given, and the Lord says to them, “Come home; I will now preach my own sermons to the nations of the earth,” all you now know can scarcely be called a preface to the sermon that will be preached with fire and sword, tempests, earthquakes, hail, rain, thunders and lightnings, and fearful destruction. What matters the destruction of a few railway cars? You will hear of magnificent cities, now idolized by the people, sinking in the earth, entombing the inhabitants. The sea will heave itself beyond its bounds, engulfing mighty cities. Famine will spread over the nations, and nation will rise up against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and states against states, in our own country and in foreign lands.” [Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 123, July 15, 1860.] 1
bluebell Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 I've always heard that the line about the Elders coming home refers to a time when all the missionaries will be recalled and no more will be sent. Do you think we're there?
mnn727 Posted August 30, 2017 Author Posted August 30, 2017 50 minutes ago, bluebell said: I've always heard that the line about the Elders coming home refers to a time when all the missionaries will be recalled and no more will be sent. Do you think we're there? Not quite, but it sure seems we're heading that direction, or maybe there's just too many 24 hour news stations digging for filler.
hope_for_things Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, mnn727 said: It sure seems like the Lord is starting to Preach His own Sermons to me. Your thoughts? Scientific understanding is the answer. BY was just repeating a lot of the biblical perspectives about how natural disasters were caused by God. In those days, many people thought God controlled disease, fertility, movements of planets, or any number of things that we now understand thanks to the scientific method. No reason to attribute these things to God anymore, we have natural explanations for them all. Thankfully many people understand this, although you'll still see fringe religious people thinking that these natural disasters are evidence of God's wrath. http://religionnews.com/2017/08/29/where-are-the-condemnations-of-harvey-as-gods-punishment/ Edited August 30, 2017 by hope_for_things 1
e-eye Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 57 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Scientific understanding is the answer. BY was just repeating a lot of the biblical perspectives about how natural disasters were caused by God. In those days, many people thought God controlled disease, fertility, movements of planets, or any number of things that we now understand thanks to the scientific method. No reason to attribute these things to God anymore, we have natural explanations for them all. Thankfully many people understand this, although you'll still see fringe religious people thinking that these natural disasters are evidence of God's wrath. http://religionnews.com/2017/08/29/where-are-the-condemnations-of-harvey-as-gods-punishment/ I think God allows much to happen in it's own accord. Sometimes it's just natures course but I think we would be surprised to see how much God has protected us when it's all said and done. Obviously God does send famine, drought, floods, fire to humble his people when they have become wicked - We have proof of this in the scriptures all over the place. We also know that these things are to increase prior to the 2nd coming. It's easy to see the science in much of what happens as that is how God works - some things we may not understand because our understanding is limited when it comes to science. The Elders have not been called home yet but this storm we just witnessed was insane. We are a wicked people and God will withhold his judgments for only so long as our nation goes down this path.
The Nehor Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 3 hours ago, bluebell said: I've always heard that the line about the Elders coming home refers to a time when all the missionaries will be recalled and no more will be sent. Do you think we're there? If we were the missionaries would all be home now.
hope_for_things Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 1 hour ago, e-eye said: I think God allows much to happen in it's own accord. Sometimes it's just natures course but I think we would be surprised to see how much God has protected us when it's all said and done. Obviously God does send famine, drought, floods, fire to humble his people when they have become wicked - We have proof of this in the scriptures all over the place. We also know that these things are to increase prior to the 2nd coming. It's easy to see the science in much of what happens as that is how God works - some things we may not understand because our understanding is limited when it comes to science. The Elders have not been called home yet but this storm we just witnessed was insane. We are a wicked people and God will withhold his judgments for only so long as our nation goes down this path. Think about this critically for a moment. What if you turned on the nightly news and they were reporting a famine in east central Africa that had been going on for the past 6 months, and had no end in sight. What is your go to explanation for this famine. Is it God created and caused, or does it have to do with weather patterns and natural variability? The scriptures have "proof" of a lot of things we have natural explanations for today, like diseases, fertility, the movement of the Sun, starts, planets, etc. People didn't understand the natural mechanisms at play, so they attributed the things they didn't understand to God and wrote their perspectives in the scriptures. Just because some person 2-3 thousand years ago thought that God caused a fire or flood, doesn't mean God did anything at all. You don't actually think that God causes these things do you? Is God controlling all these natural elements as a way to punish and control humans? Sounds like a Wizard of Oz deity to me.
bluebell Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 32 minutes ago, The Nehor said: If we were the missionaries would all be home now. I meant 'to that point where that's about to happen.'
e-eye Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: I meant 'to that point where that's about to happen.' I think we could be close - World War 3 would shift a lot of missionaries out of many areas. Russia is dangerous, south korea etc. When the US get's too wicked for missionaries then we will be there. Right now though there are still people accepting the message especially in places like Africa. One thing is for sure and that is the writing is on the wall and you can see how fast things can change with one storm.
JLHPROF Posted August 31, 2017 Posted August 31, 2017 On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 2:57 PM, bluebell said: I meant 'to that point where that's about to happen.' I think it's pretty clear that we are moving in that direction. It still amazes me that for a Church that believes we are living in the latter days and that the end times are near at hand, we instantly start to balk when someone suggests a prophetic event might be happening. It's like President Packer's suggestion that we may yet have generations to go. And we might. But why are so many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints so eager to believe nothing earthshattering will happen in their lifetimes? Are we still Millennialists? Do we still think the second coming is nigh and that major cities will be destroyed soon, that all nations will end in the near future? Or is prophecy just fun stuff that might happen in a few centuries.... 1
Avatar4321 Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 Funny. I was thinking of the Lord's promise to preach his own sermons earlier
Maidservant Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 I am one who 1) does not think the world, generally speaking, is more wicked than in times past; and 2) I do not think God speaks in a storm, specifically (a la God's conversation with Elijah) (although of course all nature bespeaks of God, but that's not what we are talking about). I think it is a mistake to try to imagine that God's sermons are natural disasters because to try to pigeonhole where one person's life fits into that (i.e. is God punishing me right now?) is a good way to really miss the message of the gospel and the opportunity we have as children of God. What did Elder Wirthlin say? Love what comes. Who is to say that a natural disaster is not, miraculously, another opportunity, like ALL the opportunities of trial we have on Earth, to come know what we are made of and to come to know the God we rely on. 1
JLHPROF Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 14 hours ago, Maidservant said: I am one who 1) does not think the world, generally speaking, is more wicked than in times past; and 2) I do not think God speaks in a storm, specifically (a la God's conversation with Elijah) (although of course all nature bespeaks of God, but that's not what we are talking about). I think it is a mistake to try to imagine that God's sermons are natural disasters because to try to pigeonhole where one person's life fits into that (i.e. is God punishing me right now?) is a good way to really miss the message of the gospel and the opportunity we have as children of God. What did Elder Wirthlin say? Love what comes. Who is to say that a natural disaster is not, miraculously, another opportunity, like ALL the opportunities of trial we have on Earth, to come know what we are made of and to come to know the God we rely on. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. But God still has said what he has said in scripture and prophecy. That includes an increase in wickedness and direct application of natural disaster to God. I am not one who is willing to dismiss the word of the Lord on the subject.
thesometimesaint Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 On 8/30/2017 at 2:16 PM, e-eye said: I think we could be close - World War 3 would shift a lot of missionaries out of many areas. Russia is dangerous, south korea etc. When the US get's too wicked for missionaries then we will be there. Right now though there are still people accepting the message especially in places like Africa. One thing is for sure and that is the writing is on the wall and you can see how fast things can change with one storm. I think you mean North Korea. I have no problem with God using natural processes to achieve his goals.
Maidservant Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: But God still has said what he has said in scripture and prophecy. That includes an increase in //righteousness and that God is in the still small voice//. I am not one who is willing to dismiss the word of the Lord on the subject. Ditto.
carbon dioxide Posted September 4, 2017 Posted September 4, 2017 This is why I don't worry about climate change predictions. If we all believe that Jesus is going to return one day, then we know that before that occurs, things in the world will be really bad. If climate change predictions are all a part of the events leading up to the Lord returning, then we should not fear it or try to put it off. We should look at the warmer weather with gladness. I will stop right now as if i get too excited, I might go idle my car for a while to get more CO2 out. 1
cdowis Posted September 4, 2017 Posted September 4, 2017 On 8/30/2017 at 3:31 PM, e-eye said: The Elders have not been called home yet but this storm we just witnessed was insane. One way of "calling the elders home" is to combine missions. Look at Europe where there were several German speaking missions which have now been combined into the Alpine Mission. We are expanding missions in areas where we have never been before, so it is a process.
hagoth7 Posted September 4, 2017 Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) On 8/30/2017 at 2:25 PM, The Nehor said: If we were the missionaries would all be home now. I have a niece coming home next month. Does that count? Missionaries were actually called home in the late 1850's, when an unwelcome presence arrived in Utah. And state did rise up against state, within this nation, just as Brigham foretold, months after his 1860 statement. Edited September 4, 2017 by hagoth7
Avatar4321 Posted September 4, 2017 Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) And after your testimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people. 89 For after your testimony cometh the testimony of earthquakes, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground and shall not be able to stand. 90 And also cometh the testimony of the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea heaving themselves beyond their bounds. 91 And all things shall be in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people. (D&C 88:88-91) Edited September 4, 2017 by Avatar4321 1
e-eye Posted September 5, 2017 Posted September 5, 2017 On 9/1/2017 at 10:19 AM, JLHPROF said: Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. But God still has said what he has said in scripture and prophecy. That includes an increase in wickedness and direct application of natural disaster to God. I am not one who is willing to dismiss the word of the Lord on the subject. I think we are looking at two different things here. I have pondered this and agree that you find God and hear him in the still small voice - It's the Ghost that God speaks to us. As for when God speaks his own sermons and punishes the wicked it's not about teaching truth it's about punishing the wicked. When God sends forth destruction upon the wicked he is not sending the Ghost to teach them as that has passed he is preaching his own sermons and it's not a lesson it's a punishment. As for things being compared to Sodom & Gomorrah a couple quotes for you: Pres. Hinckley: I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. … We see similar conditions today. They prevail all across the world. I think our Father must weep as He looks down upon His wayward sons and daughters. Pres. Packer :Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds in wickedness and depravity that which surrounds us now. Words of profanity, vulgarity, and blasphemy are heard everywhere. Unspeakable wickedness and perversion were once hidden in dark places; now they are in the open, even accorded legal protection. At Sodom and Gomorrah these things were localized. Now they are spread across the world, and they are among us. Elder Scott: Much of the world is being engulfed in a rising river of degenerate filth, with the abandonment of virtue, righteousness, personal integrity, traditional marriage, and family life. Sodom and Gomorrah was the epitome of unholy life in the Old Testament. It was isolated then; now that condition is spread over the world. So by these quotes "back then" we had equal evils but now in great quantity across the world. We are more wicked. - The wickedness may hit a point where you can't get any worse as in the level of wickedness but you can increase in overall quantity. Things are pretty bad and things will get worse. The wheat and tares have to be separated so this pattern must continue until that has run it's course.
JLHPROF Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, e-eye said: Pres. Hinckley: I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah. … We see similar conditions today. They prevail all across the world.Pres. Packer :Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds in wickedness and depravity that which surrounds us now. Elder Scott: Much of the world is being engulfed in a rising river of degenerate filth, with the abandonment of virtue, righteousness, personal integrity, traditional marriage, and family life. Sodom and Gomorrah was the epitome of unholy life in the Old Testament. It was isolated then; now that condition is spread over the world. So by these quotes "back then" we had equal evils but now in great quantity across the world. We are more wicked. - The wickedness may hit a point where you can't get any worse as in the level of wickedness but you can increase in overall quantity. Things are pretty bad and things will get worse. The wheat and tares have to be separated so this pattern must continue until that has run it's course. Agreed on all this. So why then would we be surprised if God directed a natural disaster down upon us today as he did on Sodom and Gomorrah? But no, today many members of the Church cannot accept a God that would destroy his children for wickedness. They seem to feel that the earth still "mostly good" and God wouldn't allow an innocent to perish in his judgments. I don't know what scriptures they have been reading but Heavenly Father is on record pretty clearly as to what he has done in the past and what he promises he will do in the future. Unfortunately, so many think that the present is exempt from these things. 1
MDalby Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 On 8/30/2017 at 2:57 PM, bluebell said: I meant 'to that point where that's about to happen.' http://www.LDSLastDays.com/Elders-Called-Home
MDalby Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Agreed on all this. So why then would we be surprised if God directed a natural disaster down upon us today as he did on Sodom and Gomorrah? But no, today many members of the Church cannot accept a God that would destroy his children for wickedness. They seem to feel that the earth still "mostly good" and God wouldn't allow an innocent to perish in his judgments. I don't know what scriptures they have been reading but Heavenly Father is on record pretty clearly as to what he has done in the past and what he promises he will do in the future. Unfortunately, so many think that the present is exempt from these things. This is a very applicable talk by President Joseph F Smith in 1906 Improvement Era: The Lesson in Natural Calamities 1
MDalby Posted September 6, 2017 Posted September 6, 2017 Why is it that the Latter-day Saints are perfectly calm and serene among all the convulsions of the earth--the turmoils, strife, war, pestilence, famine, and distress of nations? It is because the spirit of prophecy has made known to us that such things would actually transpire upon the earth. We understand it, and view it in its true light. We have learned it by the visions of the Almighty (President Jedediah M. Grant, JD 2:147) 2
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