War poured out starting with Civil War

[cdowis]

CRITIC

The prophecy actually says that war shall be poured out upon all nations, starting in South Carolina. That did not happen.

RESPONSE

And that is exactly what happened, , beginning with the war that started in South Carolina. 

The technology and tactics developed in the Civil War made a world war possible == using railroads for logistics and troop movement, air war (beginning with observation balloons), trench warfare, iron sided warships, submarines, Sherman's march (the first time civilians were directly attacked)

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by cdowis

[Avatar4321]

note also the prophecies state that the wars will start, not war

[rpn]

I think that some believe that the time difference (civil war wasn't until the 1860's) that JS couldn't have been prophesying about it in 1832, but was probably talking about the expected rebellion of South Carolina that was then in the news.  

[bluebell]

This is one of those prophecies that can be interpreted different ways, and so can look false or fulfilled depending on how you look at it.

Europe, for example, had been dealing with almost constant war for centuries, and it could be argued that their longest peaceful period was between 1814 and 1914.  They also had a very long period of peace after WWII until the 1990s.  Otherwise, it's been mostly war, most of the time over there, both before and after the civil war.

But, like you said, the civil war was the beginning of a new era in warfare.  Warfare is much more destructive than it's ever been, and, it's more global than it's ever been.  Though certain parts of the world have seen very little peace ever over the thousands of years that people have been living in them, now even small wars among nations or rival groups have a global impact. That wasn't true before the Civil War.

Edit-my husband and i watched a movie on Netflix last night about the siege at Jadotville in the Congo in the 1960s.  The battle took place in Katanga Africa and was between Katanganese, French, and Irish soldiers.  It was fought mainly over competing interests between the USSR, the United States, Belgium, and the Congo. That's a good example of what war has become since the late 1800s.  

Edited September 23, 2017 by bluebell

[cdowis]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But, like you said, the civil war was the beginning of a new era in warfare.  Warfare is much more destructive than it's ever been, and, it's more global than it's ever been.  Though certain parts of the world have seen very little peace ever over the thousands of years that people have been living in them, now even small wars among nations or rival groups have a global impact. That wasn't true before the Civil War.

Thank you.  I have included this in my "Youtube Apologetics" responses.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

CRITIC

The prophecy actually says that war shall be poured out upon all nations, starting in South Carolina. That did not happen.

RESPONSE

And that is exactly what happened, , beginning with the war that started in South Carolina. 

The technology and tactics developed in the Civil War made a world war possible == using railroads for logistics and troop movement, air war (beginning with observation balloons), trench warfare, iron sided warships, submarines, Sherman's march (the first time civilians were directly attacked)

This was a prophecy from direct dictation from the Lord. The Lord as far as I know has never provided punctuation. He speaks and it gets written. The punctuation in this prophecy was added by a scribe. By altering the punctuation just slightly - adding a period - the subsequent wars are legitimately read as the first world war and the second world war in which the British did indeed seek help from other countries.

Edited September 23, 2017 by RevTestament

[mrmarklin]

The nineteenth century was very warlike, even after the civil war. BTW, the civil war was the biggest war by far in the history on mankind up to that point. More casualties, more people involved, etc etc. 

Europe was far from peaceful from 1816 to 1914. 

Crimean war was fought in the 1850s

In the late sixties, Bismarck forcibly united Germany, fighting Austria along the way. 

The Franco- Prussian war of 1870-71 was the war that triggered WW I as Germany captured Alsace- Lorraine. This was not taken lightly by the French. 

The Russians fought a war with the Japanese in 1904, and lost.

I'm ignoring many Colonial wars such as the Boer war in the early 1900s, the Chinese incursions by the British and many others.

 

Someone mentioned a peaceful period in the nineteenth century, but it was not so.

 

 

[strappinglad]

The world has always been a dangerous place. I post this link about 10 bloodiest battles. It puts the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanites into perspective. Sadly my knowledge of battles is sorely lacking as I was unaware of several of these conflicts. One should note that the Atom Bombs dropped on Japan were able to inflict 100,000 +/- casualties in mere moments , and then continue the death dealing for decades. How the Lord puts up with us humans I don't know.

 

[thesometimesaint]

I think he sees our potential for goodness as well as evil.

[strappinglad]

I often contemplate the afterlife and wonder how the soldiers of all the wars react to the place. One minute they are fully intent on destroying their fellow humans and the next they are in another realm with a different attitude . Shakespeare said all the world's a stage and the men and women in it merely players. Is it that recognition that aids the transition to life in the spirit world? We are told that the same spirit of man that inhabits the body in mortality will be arriving in the spirit world. A person filled with anger or hatred in mortality will be thusly tainted in the next life. A person filled with peace and love will also carry this to the spirit world. I wonder how long it takes and what influences the change when they come to the realization that ,"  Oh , I guess I was wrong about what I believed. " . I for one will be mighty peaved if we are still faced with the cacophony of different ideas and ' truths' that we have here.

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

The nineteenth century was very warlike, even after the civil war. BTW, the civil war was the biggest war by far in the history on mankind up to that point. More casualties, more people involved, etc etc. 

Europe was far from peaceful from 1816 to 1914. 

Crimean war was fought in the 1850s

In the late sixties, Bismarck forcibly united Germany, fighting Austria along the way. 

The Franco- Prussian war of 1870-71 was the war that triggered WW I as Germany captured Alsace- Lorraine. This was not taken lightly by the French. 

The Russians fought a war with the Japanese in 1904, and lost.

I'm ignoring many Colonial wars such as the Boer war in the early 1900s, the Chinese incursions by the British and many others.

 

Someone mentioned a peaceful period in the nineteenth century, but it was not so.

 

 

The period of 1815-1914 is known as the Pax Britannica because it was a time of relative peace in Europe. As you said though, it was not without war, which shows how bloody European history really was.

[strappinglad]

And according to some , all those wars were because of religion. The desire for land and power and wealth had nothing to do with it, right?

[thesometimesaint]

17 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

And according to some , all those wars were because of religion. The desire for land and power and wealth had nothing to do with it, right?

Gold, Glory, and the Gospel.

[The Nehor]

The Civil War marked a change from the earlier Napoleonic style of warfare. It is much more destructive and industrialized now.

[cdowis]

BBC series "Fall of Eagles" gives us he history of the transition to WWI.  Here is the link to episode 1.

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by cdowis

[Wondering Muse]

Most prophecies have a dual, if not multiple, fulfillments. Just saying.

I personally believe the next World War will begin with another US Civil War. Eh, I guess we'll see, though.

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, Wondering Muse said:

Most prophecies have a dual, if not multiple, fulfillments. Just saying.

I personally believe the next World War will begin with another US Civil War. Eh, I guess we'll see, though.

The war will be anarchy vs government rule.  When you attack and eliminate the police, then all you have left is street justice.

[SettingDogStar]

On 9/24/2017 at 11:22 AM, cdowis said:

The war will be anarchy vs government rule.  When you attack and eliminate the police, then all you have left is street justice.

I actually agree with this. I remember reading some second hand accounts about a second civil war starting in Chicago due to the decreasing worth of the US dollar. With the national debt and the separation into "classes, titles, and races" that Satan is imposing heavily on the world mindset, this wouldn't surprise me even in the least.

Also didn't the Civil War really introduce "gorilla warfare" into the major theater of war?

[sunstoned]

On 9/23/2017 at 11:25 AM, cdowis said:

CRITIC

The prophecy actually says that war shall be poured out upon all nations, starting in South Carolina. That did not happen.

RESPONSE

And that is exactly what happened, , beginning with the war that started in South Carolina. 

The technology and tactics developed in the Civil War made a world war possible == using railroads for logistics and troop movement, air war (beginning with observation balloons), trench warfare, iron sided warships, submarines, Sherman's march (the first time civilians were directly attacked)

 

This is a common apologist spin.  It didn't say anything about technology and tactics.  It said war shall be poured out staring in South Carolina.  That did not happen. Plain and simple.  It did not happen.  Neither did any of the other things that were part of this "prophecy".  Great Britain and other nations did not become combatants.  There  has always been wars in the human history of the world.  The time right after the civil war was not different.  

[cdowis]

55 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

This is a common apologist spin.   

I have zero interest in arguing with you, especially with such a  comment.

Perhaps  someone else will fall into your trap.

Edited October 9, 2018 by cdowis

[longview]

On 9/23/2017 at 3:58 PM, mrmarklin said:

The Franco- Prussian war of 1870-71 was the war that triggered WW I as Germany captured Alsace- Lorraine. This was not taken lightly by the French.

This was the war that greatly united the German Confederation which led to a massive military threat against the rest of Europe.  When the Russians pulled out of WW I, the Germans were able to shift 50 divisions to the Western Front.  The entry of the US in 1917 was providential.

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/23/2017 at 9:40 PM, strappinglad said:

I often contemplate the afterlife and wonder how the soldiers of all the wars react to the place. One minute they are fully intent on destroying their fellow humans and the next they are in another realm with a different attitude . Shakespeare said all the world's a stage and the men and women in it merely players. Is it that recognition that aids the transition to life in the spirit world? We are told that the same spirit of man that inhabits the body in mortality will be arriving in the spirit world. A person filled with anger or hatred in mortality will be thusly tainted in the next life. A person filled with peace and love will also carry this to the spirit world. I wonder how long it takes and what influences the change when they come to the realization that ,"  Oh , I guess I was wrong about what I believed. " . I for one will be mighty peaved if we are still faced with the cacophony of different ideas and ' truths' that we have here.

Strange Meeting

BY WILFRED OWEN

 

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[cinepro]

Ah, the Civil War prophecy!

First, you should familiarize yourself with the environment in which this prophecy was made. Specifically, Joseph Smith made his prediction in 1832 right as the Nullification Crisis was occupying the national mind. What’s that? You aren’t familiar with the “Nullification Crisis” of 1832? Here is some background.

Nullification Crisis

Nullification Crisis

Nullification Crisis

Then consider other subsequent parts of the prophecy:

Quote

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain,…

The Southern States call upon Great Britain

A possible hit for Joseph?

Quote

…as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

Ummm…no. That didn’t happen.

Quote

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

Ummm…no. That didn’t happen

Quote

“The recruitment of black men, including many freed slaves, into the Union Army after the Emancipation Proclamation was approved: towards the end of the war, the Confederacy relented, and began to allow Blacks to enter the Confederate Army, but this action was only a token effort. ”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

More here…

History of Slave Rebellions

(Notice the Turner rebellion in 1831, with no notable rebellions during the Civil War)

 

Quote

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

 

Who are the “remnants”? Who are the “Gentiles”? When did these remnants “marshal themselves” and “vex” the “Gentiles”?

Quote

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

Honestly, by any reasonable measure, things are drastically better all over the world since the Civil War.

And “end of all nations”….? It probably sounded foreboding in 1832, with the second coming just around the corner and all that, but 186 years later, most nations seem to be doing just fine, with little worry of “ending” any time soon.

So if I have to spell it out for you, let’s go through verse by verse and see how many specific claims Section 87 (the Prophecy on the Civil War) contains, and how many are “hits”:

Quote

1.VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

The nullification crisis of 1832 (just months before this revelation was given) provides ample context for this prophecy. Also, the term “shortly” is certainly debatable. But we can call it a “hit”.

1/1 (Hits/Claims)

Quote

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

 

The American Civil War did not “pour out war upon all nations”. Not even Britain and France got really involved.

Quote

The open recognition, the active aid, the material and financial support which the South needed so greatly were never forthcoming. Europe refused to take a hand in America’s quarrel. North and South were left to fight it out between themselves.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/europeandcivilwar.htm

That’s a miss.

1/2

Quote

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States,

-and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called,

-and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations;

-and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

Yup. Yup. Nope. Nope.

3/5

Quote

4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

Nope.

3/6

Quote

5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves,

-and shall become exceedingly angry,

-and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

3/9

Quote

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn;

-and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

This is pretty dramatic stuff, but “all nations” seem to be doing fine, by and large. We’ll just say he’s 0/2, and not break down each prophecy in the verse.

3/11

 

Quote

7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

I have no idea what he meant by this, so if you can explain it, it could be a “hit”.

 

Quote

8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

The “day of the Lord” hasn’t come yet. I’m gonna say that “185+ years” does not equal “quickly”, and call this a miss. You can stretch “quickly” as long as you like and call it a hit, but that’s more of a stretch than I could make.

3/12

So of the 12+ distinct portions of the prophecy contained in Section 87, Joseph Smith only got 3 right, and even that involves a stretch of the word “shortly”, and ignoring the contemporary Nullification Crisis as a probable “inspiration”.

In short, the “Civil War” prophecy would be the prophetic equivalent of (current LDS Prophet) President Nelson seeing a weather forecast for a hurricane in Florida, and prophesying that a hurricane was going to soon wipe all of Flordia into the ocean. Then the hurricane dies out, and nothing happens. 30 years later, a small monsoon hits Florida, and causes a little damage. Church members point to President Nelson’s prophecy as being fulfilled, conveniently ignoring the part about Florida being wiped into the ocean.

Edited October 9, 2018 by cinepro

[The Nehor]

I take the prophecy to be starting with the Civil War. While the Nullification Crisis was going on it is telling that Joseph did not quietly bury the prophecy after that crisis passed. The Northern and Southern States fought and the South got British support for a time. Then later the British did call on other nations to defend them and War was poured out on all nations in the Second World War. So next is slaves rising up against their masters. We can see bits of this in revolts.

Then the remnants will vex the Gentiles. The remnants are the Lamanites who will rise up against the Gentiles. So Hispanics and native Americans mostly. So spoiler: Trump’s border wall is not going to work.

Then everything falls apart everywhere. Then everything comes together everywhere.

[sunstoned]

22 hours ago, cdowis said:

I have zero interest in arguing with you, especially with such a  comment.

Perhaps  someone else will fall into your trap.

No trap.  Just a straight forward reading of what was written.