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Now that I have had a day to calm done and think, I would like to apologize for becoming heated, and discuss what I believe was behind my becoming upset.

It seems when eschatology is brought up among LDS, that they mock and guffaw at the ideas of people who are trying to tie last days events with scriptural prophecy, seeming to be content dismissing other's sincere ideas with offering any alternative view.

So my questions are:

Do LDS have a cohesive and comprehensive view of eschatology? 

If so, what are those?

What alternative ideas can you offer to those who's views you just dismissed as crazy?

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr
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Do LDS have a cohesive and comprehensive view of eschatology? 

If so, what are those?

There are eschatological aspects to the following Articles of Faith:

 

  2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

  3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

  9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

  10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

 

As far as a singular and concentrated study of "end-type" subjects (such as death, the spirit world, the resurrection, the judgment, the kingdoms of glory, the Second Coming of Jesus, the Millennia, Armageddon, Gog and Magog, the signs of the times, etc.), I would take these to be the "appendages" of our religion and that the main theme is the Atonement of Christ:

 

"As the Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121). https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-9-the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

 

What alternative ideas can you offer to those who's views you just dismissed as crazy?

Which eschatological views do you believe are dismissed by LDS as crazy?

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There are eschatological aspects to the following Articles of Faith:

 

  2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

  3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

  9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

  10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

 

As far as a singular and concentrated study of "end-type" subjects (such as death, the spirit world, the resurrection, the judgment, the kingdoms of glory, the Second Coming of Jesus, the Millennia, Armageddon, Gog and Magog, the signs of the times, etc.), I would take these to be the "appendages" of our religion and that the main theme is the Atonement of Christ:

 

"As the Prophet Joseph Smith declared, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121). https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-9-the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

 

Which eschatological views do you believe are dismissed by LDS as crazy?

Pretty much any theory any non-LDS has put forward.

We are to be found watching, not with our heads buried in the sand.

So really there is no cohesive LDS view of last days events. We just have to play it by ear and, of course, "follow the prophet" ?

As I recall scriptural prophets gave warnings, and prophecies, about what was to come. What has happened since Pres. Benson? Is it just not that important anymore, or is the LORD no longer speaking because no one listened, not wanting to buy into all the "fear-mongering"?

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So really there is no cohesive LDS view of last days events. We just have to play it by ear and, of course, "follow the prophet" ?

My post asserts that there is, and yes, following the prophet is one way to live by what is believed in that regard:

 

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/js_m/1/27#27

 

There is clear cohesion in verse 27, but one has to be there to get it: “And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth.”

 

There are many signs, but one purpose and one means of salvation (for example, verses 28-31):

And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars. Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax cold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved. And again, this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked…”

 

I don’t think you can point to any communication or effort from the LDS Church that isn’t in line with speaking the words of Christ for the elect’s sake, to witness to and to save them through the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

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My post asserts that there is, and yes, following the prophet is one way to live by what is believed in that regard:

 

http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/js_m/1/27#27

 

There is clear cohesion in verse 27, but one has to be there to get it: “And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth.”

 

There are many signs, but one purpose and one means of salvation (for example, verses 28-31):

And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars. Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax cold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved. And again, this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked…”

 

I don’t think you can point to any communication or effort from the LDS Church that isn’t in line with speaking the words of Christ for the elect’s sake, to witness to and to save them through the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

So, in essence, "a lot of really bad stuff is gonna happen"?

But I did see a glimmer of hope for a discussion:

What is the carcass that His elect will be gathered to?

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr
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From the NT student manual:

Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:27; Matthew 24:28. “Wheresoever the Carcass Is, There Will the Eagles Be Gathered Together”

The Savior taught that one of the signs of the times would be the establishment of His Church and the gathering of the Saints to it from around the world: “And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth” (Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:27). Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught: “In the parable, as here given, the carcass is the body of the Church to which the eagles, who are Israel, shall fly to find nourishment” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [1965–73], 1:648).

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From the NT student manual:

Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:27; Matthew 24:28. “Wheresoever the Carcass Is, There Will the Eagles Be Gathered Together”

The Savior taught that one of the signs of the times would be the establishment of His Church and the gathering of the Saints to it from around the world: “And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth” (Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:27). Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught: “In the parable, as here given, the carcass is the body of the Church to which the eagles, who are Israel, shall fly to find nourishment” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [1965–73], 1:648).

So the carcass is the church?

Do you realize what a carcass is?

Note: I am not disagreeing.

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So the carcass is the church?

Do you realize what a carcass is?

Note: I am not disagreeing.

I do know what a carcass is, and I am not the one that made the association.

But given that a carcass will feed and nourish the eagles that gather, it works.

Eagles are majestic birds, even though likening the church to a dead body isn't too flattering.

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So the carcass is the church?

Do you realize what a carcass is?

Note: I am not disagreeing.

Other people use Jesus Christ as being what the carcass is symbolic for, which seems to indicate they too see it as something positive.

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In my opinion, there is no end to truly clever and interesting ways of interpreting Daniel and Revelation as with all of Scripture. Clever and interesting ways to explain Scripture are many and they often conflict with each other. The truth is out there, and so are many clever, successful errors. The problem is that successful errors are never crazy.

 

Wouldn't it be kind of neat if there was only truth vs. crazy ideas? In fact, I think some with weaker faith take comfort in imagining that successful error is less clever than it is. Sometimes I have wished that we could eliminate terms like absurd from the vocabulary. It is a good word with an important meaning though. Sometimes I fear that people of faith on all sides have a habit of making the party that is simply wrong into a screwball. Another equally problematic mistake occurs when it becomes discernible that error is not necessarily crazy. But I stray from the matter before us.

 

As a Catholic, I expect the Church to teach us what to believe about the end times when it becomes necessary for us. It was asked why there is silence, apparently, from God's LDS prophets. If I were LDS, I would think it is because we do not need to know the future as much as we would like. That leaves Catholics and Mormons with a choice. Clever Protestant interpretations...or patience.

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So, in essence, "a lot of really bad stuff is gonna happen"?

Yes, and those who gather at the carcass will see/hear them coming. Those who take seminary, institute, participate in local and general Conferences, and attend their Sunday meetings will learn about them, sometimes in great specificity and granularity. Not to mention personal revelation for signs delivered

on a personal level.

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So the carcass is the church?

Do you realize what a carcass is?

Note: I am not disagreeing.

It is the body of Christ (Church), and it is Him represented in the sacramental bread and water (body and blood). The carcass is the spiritual and temporal  nourishment Christ provides through His earthly kingdom, the Church.

 

We are the body of Christ, saints that are dead to the works of sin, the natural man having been put to death through baptism and living as a spiritual man in Christ, which can only be accomplished in a fulness in His kingdom (the Church).

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What alternative ideas can you offer to those who's views you just dismissed as crazy?

I like the site http://www.ldslastdays.com

 

I think too many people try to find things that are going on in the news and tie it to prophecy.  Perhaps some of it is but most of it is not.  Too much of it is crying wolf and the problem with that is that when the real prophets say something, people will dismiss it as they are used to predictions not happening.  Best thing for people to do is prepare if disaster will happen next week but also plan for the long term as well.  Don't take money for those 401K just yet.  We might have a 100 years before Christ comes.

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Matt 24 , Mark 13 , Luke 21  to what time do they refer? What is the history of people proclaiming that Christ has returned? Are there any currently claiming to be Christ?

 

  If the President of the Church were to announce in GC that Christ would return within 5 years , a la the Nephite times, what would be the reaction in the world? The reaction in the Church ?

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Matt 24 , Mark 13 , Luke 21  to what time do they refer? What is the history of people proclaiming that Christ has returned? Are there any currently claiming to be Christ?

 

  If the President of the Church were to announce in GC that Christ would return within 5 years , a la the Nephite times, what would be the reaction in the world? The reaction in the Church ?

My reaction would be, I guess Christ was wrong or God the Father had a change of heart since we do know the day and the hour as we got a 5 year heads up. 

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Do LDS have a cohesive and comprehensive view of eschatology? 

 

Not really. They have a cohesive view but it is in no way comprehensive. God has not revealed enough for a comprehensive timeline. We have the LDS equivalent of "Left Behinders" who think they can construct such a view but they fail.

 

What alternative ideas can you offer to those who's views you just dismissed as crazy?

 

Being unable to provide an alternate equally detailed scenario is not evidence that the crazy scenario must be true. I may not know exactly what exact methods the Egyptians used to move and craft the stone used to build the pyramids but that is not evidence for the "aliens built them" hypothesis.

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........................................................................................

............................................. That leaves Catholics and Mormons with a choice. Clever Protestant interpretations...or patience.

Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

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So the carcass is the church?

Do you realize what a carcass is?

Note: I am not disagreeing.

The carcase is carrion,  the eagles are vultures.  A better translation might be: "Wherever there's a corpse, that's where you will find vultures."  Perhaps a folk proverb, according to a Jewish NT commentary -- which goes on to suggest that the meaning is that birds preying on carrion refer to persons used by demonic spirits to carry out evil purposes.

 

However, it might be a very simple indicator that one should look for the obvious signs of the times -- indicating the arrival of the eschaton.

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Matt 24 , Mark 13 , Luke 21  to what time do they refer? What is the history of people proclaiming that Christ has returned? Are there any currently claiming to be Christ?

 

  If the President of the Church were to announce in GC that Christ would return within 5 years , a la the Nephite times, what would be the reaction in the world? The reaction in the Church ?

A Five Year Plan?  Sounds like a communist planning technique.

 

The world would say, "Ho hum," South Park would put together a clever episode with the Saints loading their wagons, hooking up their oxen, and heading for Missouri.  Could even become a Broadway hit -- "Paint Your Wagon II."  They could call the wind calmoriah . . .  And Clint Eastwood could direct the screen version.

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..........................................................................................

It seems when eschatology is brought up among LDS, that they mock and guffaw at the ideas of people who are trying to tie last days events with scriptural prophecy, seeming to be content dismissing other's sincere ideas with offering any alternative view.

So my questions are:

Do LDS have a cohesive and comprehensive view of eschatology? 

.......................................................................................

Even though a handful of LDS scholars mention "eschatology," and it is even to be found in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 99.9% of Mormons have never heard the term, and most of those who have don't know what it means.  At least Protestant seminary grads know what it means and use it freely.  However, not knowing what the technical terms means does not indicate that Mormons don't have a cohesive and comprehensive view of eschatology.  As CV75 correctly points out, they do.  There is simply a lack of a formal, accepted systematic theology which puts things in those terms.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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Even though a handful of LDS scholars mention "eschatology," and it is even to be found in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 99.9% of Mormons have never heard the term, and most of those who have don't know what it means.  At least Protestant seminary grads know what it means and use it freely.  However, not knowing what the technical terms means does not indicate that Mormons don't have a cohesive and comprehensive view of eschatology.  As CV75 correctly points out, they do.  There is simply a lack of a formal, accepted systematic theology which puts things in those terms.

 

Does it matter???

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The carcase is carrion,  the eagles are vultures.  A better translation might be: "Wherever there's a corpse, that's where you will find vultures."  Perhaps a folk proverb, according to a Jewish NT commentary -- which goes on to suggest that the meaning is that birds preying on carrion refer to persons used by demonic spirits to carry out evil purposes.

 

However, it might be a very simple indicator that one should look for the obvious signs of the times -- indicating the arrival of the eschaton.

This is what i was taught as an EV, a loooooong time ago. The difference is it was linked to the Battle of Armageddon, the clean up of the bodies and blood being described as as deep a bridle on a horse and takes years to clean up. I wish I could remember the verses that links them, perhaps in Joel and Revelation?

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