How to be a tolerant parent?

[Maestrophil]

I am posting this to ask for insight and advice...

 

The reason I am not putting it in social hall is that I would like the advice of non and ex members as well as faithful LDS - and I think more of all stripes visit this forum.

Our Daughter just turned 18 last month.  On her birthday, she announced that she has been sneaking out of the house for the past several months to sleep with her boyfriend, and intends to move in with him as soon as they can.  Of course, this shocked and hurt us.  We are also worried because the relationship is not healthy.  Last year, we had to hospitalize our daughter due to the nature of that relationship (and she promised she would stop seeing him) and her drug and drinking with him.  

 

This whole time she has been lying to us, and I am very offended by that more than anything.  We helped her get a car and paid for therapy to get her up and running, and the whole time, she was just reverting to what she wanted.  We have tried to be understanding, we stopped making her attend church with us after the hospital as she made it clear she was not interested and we wanted to show her we were willing to let her make honest choices.  Apparently, she just doe snot get being honest as a principle...  

Well here we are a month later.  She has no money save to move out, so she is still at home.  She came home with a tattoo last night.  She is doing whatever she wants even though we asked her to be honest and obey our house rules if she chooses to live with us.  Her biological dad could take her in, and we always hesitated because of his bad influence, but that influence appears to have won out for now - so there is no harm in her living there now in our opinion.  

 

It is hard, because we are hurt by the lies, trust is gone, we don't want to be taken advantage of and want to be treated with respect.  But we also want our daughter to know we love her in spite of her choices, and don't want her to feel that we are cutting her out of our life, or kicking her out of our home unfairly.

So my questions for discussion on this post are:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

 

TANNK YOU!

 

MP

[JAHS]

The Bible says "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."  (Proverbs 22:6)

Notice it does not say when they are teenagers they will not depart from it. We had a daughter in a similar situation who kept a lot of wrong things she was doing secret from us and she ended up getting pregnant. It was shocking and upsetting to us also ,but we let her know we still loved her and she kept the baby and we helped raise her in our home.  After she started another relationship and got pregnant again she began to realize that what she was taught in the church were important principles that she wanted for her children, so they could grow up without as many problems as she had. She eventually married her boy friend who was also Mormon, but not active at the time she met him, and a year later they were  sealed in the temple with their children. 
I guess the point is that we should never give up on our children, even when they are adults; they might just decide on their own to make a turn for the better later in life. 

[Daniel2]

Hey, MP,

First off, I am sorry to hear of the difficulties you and your family are going through.  Circumstances like these, involving/confronting/challenging our most cherished notions of belief and family, are difficult and often painful for all concerned.

I am a 44-year-old former LDS man who left the church in my late 20’s due to my problems with church history, doctrine, an ongoing series of changes in perception of ‘Truth’ after years of misguided (albeit well-meaning) advice from my local church leaders leading to the collapse of my temple marriage, and ultimately, my inability to continue living a straight lifestyle.

While I don’t have personal experience as a teenage/young-adult son/daughter residing with my own devout LDS parents, I do have experience as a twenty-something son of devoutly-LDS parents (and family), and trying to navigate a new, non-LDS-centered relationship with my parents and siblings and their families.

What I LOVE about your post is that without abandoning or altering your personal beliefs, you are at least open to searching for answers and input from others on how best to proceed.  I commend and give you a lot of credit for doing so as you search, ponder, and no-doubt pray as to what paths are best for you, your wife, and your daughter.

I’m not sure there’s any universally-applicable answer on how to proceed in your situation… but I think there are a few values that I personally believe should always govern human relationships: mutual respect, love, compassion, empathy, and the principles found in the Golden Rule.  I think it’s important for you to set some ground rules for open, honest, and respectful dialogue on all sides as you discuss the circumstances and best path forward with your daughter.

Another piece of advice: as part of a larger discussion and without suggesting you’ll do whatever she wants, perhaps its’ a good idea to ask your daughter what options she can think of that she feels would be fair all around, given her knowledge of your views, expectations, hurt, and the understandable loss of trust you’re likely experiencing.

Other concerns that likely play into the situation:

1. Do you have others living with you that play a part in your family dynamics?  How will your decisions going forward affect them—whether the decision is to allow your daughter to stay, or to part ways with your daughter?

    

2. Have you approached her biological (and it sounds, non-LDS?) father about the possibility of having her move in with him?  Perhaps you should have a side conversation with him (without your daughter present) about your desire to find out how to best support your daughter moving forward….  As a divorcee who suffered through a highly acrimonious divorce myself, I realize attempting to cooperate with a former spouse may be far more easily said that done… but it sounds like circumstances warrant trying to put aside past conflict as much as possible in focusing on how the two of you can support your daughter without being taken advantage of now that she’s an adult.

    

3. Is family therapy an option?  Not only financially, but from a willingness-factor for all parties concerned?  Or has therapy proven to be unsuccessful, given your daughters’ behaviors…?  If that’s the case, would a different therapist be helpful?  (perhaps considering someone who’s not affiliated with LDS Family Services, from the sounds of your daughter’s lack of personal progress with her current one).

    

4. From my perspective, should you choose to allow her to stay (with whatever conditions there may be), asking her to pay rent now that she’s an adult is perfectly acceptable.

    

5. I also believe it’s perfectly acceptable for home owners to set certain rules for anyone living with them (especially those that result in measurable damage).  That being said, I also think it’s hard (if not impossible) to police behaviors both inside and outside one’s home that don’t result in measurable/observable consequences…. Especially when it comes to hoping to control adult children’s choices about the law of chastity (either alone or with a partner).

    

6. While I don’t (and likely never will) get a tattoo, that’s something that I believe is ultimately up to each adult to choose for themselves.  I understand how much it’s frowned upon within LDS society and belief… I’m not sure it’s a reason to part ways with a wayward child, but I understand that is also a choice that each parent must make.

When one of my husband’s daughters (then aged 21) told her LDS mother (with whom she was residing in another state at the time) that she is lesbian, her Mom left the house to go speak with her bishop, and came back and said our daughter had to move out within a couple of days.  She ended up moving in with my husband and I.  Of my husband’s three other adult children, none of them supported their Mom’s actions in kicking their sister out of her house, and it has caused tensions and stress on their Mom's relationship with all four of their kids (including those that remain active in the LDS church).  Their Mom is saddened that she hasn’t been able to maintain the same close relationship with her children that they continue to have with us, but I’m not sure she fully is able to process how her own behaviors have affected how the children feel about her.  They have expressed to us that once they saw how conditional their Mom’s acceptance of their own children was, it spoke volumes to them about what their Mother’s “love” meant, and has also affected their attitudes and beliefs towards the church.  Many of them question why they should feel any desire to unite themselves with or return to a church that they feel gives lip-service to family, but (again, in their eyes) seems to encourage forcing families apart over differences. 

In all honesty, from my perspective (which, again, is the perspective of a former-LDS gay man), the move for our daughter away from her Mom and into our home was healthy, because we had ongoing concerns about how the church would continue to negatively affect our lesbian daughter.  So, on the one hand, I’m glad she ‘got out.’  On the other, I do support our daughter’s relationship with her mother and, with the goal of preserving her relationship with her own daughter and all her other kids, I wished her mom had handled it all around with more understanding, tact, and compassion—as it sounds like you are hopeful of and searching for positive solutions.

I don’t have all the answers, and none of us here are likely to solve your situation perfectly… but with what I’ve read so far, you’re on the right track, and I trust that it sounds like you will be approaching the circumstances with the values I mentioned earlier… mutual respect, love, compassion, empathy, and the principles found in the Golden Rule.

I look forward to hearing with others say on both sides of the aisle, here, and trust many of us may share different facets to consider as you prayerfully move forward with the best solutions for you and your family.

All the best,

D

Edited August 2, 2017 by Daniel2

[Maidservant]

I think that any discussion you have with her needs to no longer be from the position of parent/child but adult/adult.  And tell her that YOU (two) are adults who have no desire whatsoever to live with nor support another adult.  Say that you would love to talk with her on the phone every day, help her out as you are able and willing with specific things she needs as she specifically asks (and be honest about any unwillingness you may have, not as parents or religious people, but as ADULTS who have a LIFE), and that you would love to have her and her boyfriend over for dinner once a week.  Or something along these lines. 

Ask her if she intends to work and have her own apartment, and if she would like support in that, meaning information and a plan as to how to go about it.  If she rejects the opportunity for your counsel, show her where the nearest homeless shelter is and a url for some kind of site that teaches people how to be self-sufficient.  Again, NOT from the position of parents or religious people, but from the position of adults who would like to conduct their own lives and the idea that she would like to also.  She's not seeing you as real people with real lives.  She HAS to have the consequences of her choices (as an adult, not as your child) or she will never figure life out.  It hurts like crazy, but you have to detach from the results of what may or may not be, but simply be willing to be in her life as a parent of an ADULT child--phone calls, dinner, counsel if wanted, support if wanted, but no pulling the bull by the horns.  Your goal cannot be that she will LIKE you or that she will never get hurt.  I can guarantee she is not going to like you, and she WILL get hurt.

I had one son who told me when he was a senior that he thought he would not go to college the year after (per my expectations), but that he would just work (he had a year before his mission).  I said to him, "Okay.  But where will you live?"  That made him re-think. At the time, I was not willing to 3/4 support him (room, board) while he worked for a small job and used my car and paid for building up his CD collection or whatever.  I don't care what my adult children choose once they hit 18.  But MY HOUSE is MY HOUSE, and only a certain spirit may be here.  Also in my case, I have great struggles supporting my minor children.  My adult children know that I am not likely to be able to lend a hand in that way. Although heaven knows I have, still--I have paid rents, tuitions, food, etc.  So my point of view is--you choose who you want to be, I love you and I'm fine with it if you're fine with it, but you are going to need to do it at your OWN house, on your own dime, your own time, you handle the consequences, etc etc.  In this view, my children know that I RESPECT them (nicer than love, I think).  They know that I TRUST them to be able to deal.

I had another son who failed his missionary interview and is to this day in a deep struggle of addiction for his very soul.  At the time told me, "Well, I'll keep working on it."  I had visions of him sitting on my couch and eating my food for years while he "worked on it".  I told him to get off his butt, forget about going on a mission, and to apply for college.  I said forget about the mission because I knew his addiction wrestle were going to be his pathway for a while, years.  No use pretending.  I know what addiction is from my own stuff.  Anyway, this son has graduated from culinary school and has his first job in his field.  He continues to attend church, meet with his bishop, and work addiction programs, although he is still in it.  He and I are open enough to be able to have a conversation about it from time to time, so I can offer my love, counsel, support.  Most of the time, he does NOT take me up on my offers of 'telling him what he can do', but that's fine.  It is his life, his path, he has to work it out with fear and trembling.  He probably won't be able to marry any time soon, either, because of this issue.  At one time I was very disappointed, but life is life.  But HE deals with it.  *I* don't.  Except to pray, love, and small bits.

I have a daughter, who called me from college, we had a long conversation, upshot is that she wanted to drop out without graduating.  At first, I was very disappointed in this as well, as it prima facie seemed the wrong thing to do.  But in talking, I too realized she was wasting time for HER life.  I told her she could come back home IF she dealt with her own crap and didn't revert to being a child.  It is taking longer than we both thought, but she is slowly but surely going toward her goals.  She found a job and works A LOT, pays me rent, helps out with food and toilet paper etc, is in the process of paying for a car.  When that's finished, she may move out as her next goal, let's see, she's not too hard to live with.  Or she has a boyfriend now, so maybe wedding bells.  Let's see.  I was afraid I'd see her being lazy, but in my case that hasn't been the case.  She actually spends a lot of time in her room when not working, and sometimes I want to tell her "Do something!" but that's not my job anymore to micromanage, as long as she is keeping the agreements that we DID make.

I have also had to deal with a son who tried to turn the tables on me and start to micromanage my life, as if I was 98 years old with dementia, I had to shut him down and let him know he wouldn't like all my choices, but I'm an adult.  ha ha ha.  Usually.

Anyway, I know my situation isn't exactly like yours, bless you.  There's no easy or sweet path to the situation you have right now, so stop looking for one, and instead do the thing with the most integrity, even if it's a little messy to begin with.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Maidservant

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

By telling them you love them.  Do wholesome activities together that show love and open communication.  Speak their love language. 

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

A lot of the times there is a rebellion quality of things- to go and do the exact opposite just to be obstinate.  A lot of the times its' because if they through away their Christ-centric moral compass then they have zero compass, as opposed to a moral-minded atheist.  

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

I am assuming that she is graduated high school, not attending college, and not holding a job?

She is an adult: treat her like an adult.  Adult's pay rent, car insurance, food, etc.  None of that comes out of your pocket anymore.  Do not endorse her bad behavior by paying for it (directly or indirectly).  If she does not abide by the conditions of her renters agreement at your house, then she can rent elsewhere.  You still love her and she's still invited to family game night (or whatever it is you do), but you're not endorsing bad behavior.

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

As an obstinate young adult once myself: treat her as an adult.  She's not a child anymore: let her have the rights and responsibilities of an adult, and let her deal with the consequences of those decisions.  Don't try to rescue her like she's a child.  

[mnn727]

My opinion: Tell your daughter you love her and no matter what she does she will always be your daughter and welcome at family activities, however If you (meaning she) want to indulge in adult activities (sex, tattoos, etc) then you indulge in all adult activities: Paying rent, purchasing your own: food, clothes, cars, insurance, etc. This involves getting a job if she doesn't have one. Give her a 60 day grace period but be firm, 60 days from now she has a job and starts paying the above or she moves out. STAND FIRM!

Actions have consequences.

Be prepared though - I got the same talk and I moved out. I had nothing to do with any kind of religion for 20 years. Been active now for 24 years (I'm 61 now) Parents are now long gone, but it was the best thing they did for me - forced me to become an adult. Did I make mistakes? sure, but I learned.

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

My opinion: Tell your daughter you love her and no matter what she does she will always be your daughter and welcome at family activities, however If you (meaning she) want to indulge in adult activities (sex, tattoos, etc) then you indulge in all adult activities: Paying rent, purchasing your own: food, clothes, cars, insurance, etc. This involves getting a job if she doesn't have one. Give her a 60 day grace period but be firm, 60 days from now she has a job and starts paying the above or she moves out. STAND FIRM!

Actions have consequences.

Be prepared though - I got the same talk and I moved out. I had nothing to do with any kind of religion for 20 years. Been active now for 24 years (I'm 61 now) Parents are now long gone, but it was the best thing they did for me - forced me to become an adult. Did I make mistakes? sure, but I learned.

Thank you so much for that great insight!

[katherine the great]

Been there.  Still there in some ways. Our youngest moved out as soon as she turned 18. When I say she moved out, her friends were waiting in the driveway when we came home from our family vacation, she grabbed her prepacked bag, jumped in the car with them and left. It was devastating. I have no memory of the wonderful vacation because it is completely overshadowed by the sorrow of her leaving. She lived with her idiot friends for a couple of months before they kicked her out for nonpayment of rent (yes, she was also an idiot, but she was my idiot). We let her keep her phone but not her car. She is a type one diabetic and I had to be able to get a hold of her to check on her care. I took her grocery shopping every week to keep up contact and be sure she had nutritious food, but I never gave her any money. That was three years ago. She has come and gone a couple of times since then and has gone through several jobs--she also spent some time in a mental health facility (that was the low point for us). Our four older children are all responsible and stable, but this one is just as wild as a March hare but we still love her fiercely and stay close to her at all costs. I think some of them just have to grow up the hard way and have absolutely no concept of the pain they cause the people who really love them until they are much older. I think it's harder when it's a daughter because we worry more about their safety. I think my best advice is to be as nice as you can to their friends--grit your teeth but you will need to know them to keep tabs on her. At any rate, I feel your pain brother.  <3

[Storm Rider]

22 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

So my questions for discussion on this post are:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

Gads, this is the tough situation, but it is not unique or novel.  It has been repeated often in today's world and I suspect if we looked back at history we would see that it is rather old process that some children go through as they transition to adulthood.

1. Your hate or love of another's choices is irrelevant.  What I think is most important is that you have learned a path of happiness that demands certain behaviors.  Those who are interested in other paths may, and often do, have a more difficult time.  Some of us think we are happy when we have no rules - this is a child's choice because they do not yet see consequences.  Learning what is healthy for the body, mind, heart, and spirit are different and challenging and some of us will ignore the learning process for as long as possible.  Your daughter is in this phase.  A parent shows respect of self and love of others by being honest, direct and expecting adults to act like adults.  I don't see any reason not to sit down and discuss solutions with your family on understanding what love is versus what it means to obey the rules of a home.  If you don't want to obey the rules then the consequence is that you find another place to live.  If that is the choice made then a discussion on how to support her in her new life becomes the focus.  Not having rules and not respecting the rules only leads to chaos and very bad feelings.
2. Teens in the Church are not intent on stepping far outside of the teachings of the gospel and the Church - some teens are and yours is one of them.  Let's not paint with too broad of a brush stroke - exaggerations seldom help.  The way to the bottom of a mountain is one step at a time - the way we let our children fall to the bottom is by allowing them to ignore the home's rules - which formalizes a disrespect of the path of happiness, of you and of your own beliefs.  "This is what we do here in our home - beyond that doorway is where you get to do anything you want"....and better yet you get to learn how to pay for it in the adult world.
3. No, there are no time limits.  This is not an acrimonious conversation, it is not a disrespectful conversation - it is a conversation about how each member of the home can live in peace.  Don't delay having the conversation.  If you want to charge rent - then do so.  However, the payment of rent is for specific things - you need to identify what that is.  What are her responsibilities in the home - who washes her clothes, who buys and prepares her meals, does she clean the home, the bathroom, etc.  Also - saving the rent money and giving it back to her when she moves out to facilitate her new living arrangements might be something to think about - it is an option.  Further - she must be responsible for her own expenses: mobile phone, car, gas, etc.
4. Lastly, get her butt down to the doctor or health clinic and get her on birth control.  If she is not already on birth control then she needs it yesterday.  Make sure she understands the definition of safe sex and the consequences of ignoring the common sense rules of adult relationships. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Storm Rider

[katherine the great]

5 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

I think because they generally have further to step than those raised in families who accept behavior that our culture considers unacceptable (drinking, partying, etc. that many parents consider normal adolescent behavior)

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/2/2017 at 10:31 AM, Maestrophil said:

I am posting this to ask for insight and advice...

 

The reason I am not putting it in social hall is that I would like the advice of non and ex members as well as faithful LDS - and I think more of all stripes visit this forum.

Our Daughter just turned 18 last month.  On her birthday, she announced that she has been sneaking out of the house for the past several months to sleep with her boyfriend, and intends to move in with him as soon as they can.  Of course, this shocked and hurt us.  We are also worried because the relationship is not healthy.  Last year, we had to hospitalize our daughter due to the nature of that relationship (and she promised she would stop seeing him) and her drug and drinking with him.  

 

This whole time she has been lying to us, and I am very offended by that more than anything.  We helped her get a car and paid for therapy to get her up and running, and the whole time, she was just reverting to what she wanted.  We have tried to be understanding, we stopped making her attend church with us after the hospital as she made it clear she was not interested and we wanted to show her we were willing to let her make honest choices.  Apparently, she just doe snot get being honest as a principle...  

Well here we are a month later.  She has no money save to move out, so she is still at home.  She came home with a tattoo last night.  She is doing whatever she wants even though we asked her to be honest and obey our house rules if she chooses to live with us.  Her biological dad could take her in, and we always hesitated because of his bad influence, but that influence appears to have won out for now - so there is no harm in her living there now in our opinion.  

 

It is hard, because we are hurt by the lies, trust is gone, we don't want to be taken advantage of and want to be treated with respect.  But we also want our daughter to know we love her in spite of her choices, and don't want her to feel that we are cutting her out of our life, or kicking her out of our home unfairly.

So my questions for discussion on this post are:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

 

TANNK YOU!

 

MP

Sister Gui and I have been attending and/or leading LDS Family Services Addiction Recovery Family Support Groups for 11 years. May I suggest you find a group and start attending? Give them 90 days. If you are not satisfied, they'll give you your misery back.  It has saved our lives and we have seen miracles in others' lives.

A few basic principals: 1) You cannot change another person no matter how hard you try. 2) It is not your fault. 3) The addict has a Savior and I am not He. 4) The addict must experience the consequences of his/her choices, no matter how painful it may be to him/her and us. 5) Agency is all. 6) Lying is what an addict does best. 7) Until the addict is clean and sober, you cannot have a normal relationship. He/she will see everything you say and do  through the filter of their addiction. 8. Never set limits or boundaries you are unwilling or unable to enforce.

I would be very happy to answer questions here or privately. We have experienced what you are experiencing and know many, many good LDS people who are going through it, too. God bless you!

For more information on the Family Support Group program and a copy of the handbook (which I highly recommend) see

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/spouses-and-families/?lang=eng

Find meetings here:

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/find-a-meeting?lang=eng

If your stake does not have one, get one started. 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

So sorry to hear about your daughter's choices.  I have raised 5 children.  Fortunately all of them are living happy and productive lives.  I have this theory that you are pretty much done raising your children when they reach 12 years of age.  If they haven't developed their own set of values by then, it is very diffucult to instill those values in them when they get older.  After 12, is all you are doing is helping them stay with their own values and pointing out the consequences of the choices they make

There is an old saying that when you pick up a stick, you also pick up the other end of the stick.  It means that no matter what choice you make, there are consequences that come with that choice.  Those consequences can be good or bad.  It depends on what stick you pick up.  It is a principle I taught my children all through their teen years.  Your daughters life is hers to live, not yours.  It always has been.  This is about the choices she is making.  It is not about you or the choices you have made for your life.  The sooner she realizes that, the better the chances are that she will make the choices that are best for her.  I would make that perfectly clear to her.  Reinforce with her that she has every right to choose how she wants to live her life.  Because she does.  At this point, your job is to not make those choices for her, nor is it to coherce her into making the choices you want her to make.  Your job is to give your experience and wisdom about where the choices she makes may lead to.  

She is free to pick up the stick of having sex with her boyfriend.  But also tell her the possible consequences that choice may bring.  The possibility of being responsible for a child at her age.  The possibility that she may not be able to get an education.  The possibility that without an education, she may have an entire life of struggling financially.  The possibility of having to live in a homeless center if she can't make rent.  The possibility that she may always struggle, not just when she is 18 but her whole life where her next meal is coming from.  

She can also pick up the stick of going to college and getting a better education.  That stick comes with increased chances of spending her life doing something she loves every day.  It is the stick that increases chances of financial stability, and a more productive and satisifying life.  

(I just thought of maybe how to make this more powerful to her so a little edit.  Perhaps you should get real sticks.  Label each one with the choices she has to make at this point in her life.  Should she have sex with her boyfriend.  Should she go to college.  Should she just get a job.  Should she do drugs.  Whatever you think her choices are that she might take.  Have her pick up each stick.  Have her tell you what she thinks each stick will lead to.  And add your wisdom of what you think each stick will lead to.  By far, this is the  most important lesson you could be teaching her at this point in her life.)

Her whole life is before her.  How she starts that life will determine how her life will play out.  This isn't about forcing her to accept your rules.  This is about the consequences of her own rules.  This is all about how she wants her life to turn out.  What are her life goals.  What does she want to become.  Ask her what she wants to do for a living and how is she going to reach that goal.  Now if you can have a conversation about that, then it will be much more productive than telling her she shouldn't be getting tattoos or having sex with her boyfriend. That advice is going to roll off her back like water on a duck.  

So sit down with her.  Let her know what her options are.  Let her know that she is free to make whatever choices she wants.  But also let her know the choices you will make as well.  Just like her, you have to decide what stick you want to pick up for yourself. Can she live with you?  Are you going to let her stay there for free?  Does she have to support herself?  You have to decide not what her rules are, but what your rules are.  You have to decide what the consequences of those decisions will  be in your life.  You need to explain what sticks you are willing to pick up and why.

Most of all, as others have said, let her know that whatever she does, you will always love her.  Let her know that you hope she will find a life that will make her happy and productive and joyful.  That your guidance is only to help her become the very best person she can become.  As soon as she realizes that these are her choices and you are not imposing your choices on her, the sooner she will start to decide for herself who she wants to become.  

Good luck.  I wish both you and your daughter the very best.

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by california boy

[YJacket]

18 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I am posting this to ask for insight and advice...

 

The reason I am not putting it in social hall is that I would like the advice of non and ex members as well as faithful LDS - and I think more of all stripes visit this forum.

Our Daughter just turned 18 last month.  On her birthday, she announced that she has been sneaking out of the house for the past several months to sleep with her boyfriend, and intends to move in with him as soon as they can.  Of course, this shocked and hurt us.  We are also worried because the relationship is not healthy.  Last year, we had to hospitalize our daughter due to the nature of that relationship (and she promised she would stop seeing him) and her drug and drinking with him.  

is no harm in her living there now in our opinion.  

 

It is hard, because we are hurt by the lies, trust is gone, we don't want to be taken advantage of and want to be treated with respect.  But we also want our daughter to know we love her in spite of her choices, and don't want her to feel that we are cutting her out of our life, or kicking her out of our home unfairly.

So my questions for discussion on this post are:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

 

TANNK YOU!

 

MP

I wish you weren't going through this .. . .but she is 18.  Frankly, you are done teaching and training her.  She is an adult and she needs to learn what it means to be an adult.

"This whole time she has been lying to us, and I am very offended by that more than anything."

Of course she has and the next line explains why:

"We helped her get a car and paid for therapy to get her up and running, and the whole time, she was just reverting to what she wanted.  We have tried to be understanding, we stopped making her attend church with us after the hospital as she made it clear she was not interested and we wanted to show her we were willing to let her make honest choices.  Apparently, she just doe snot get being honest as a principle..."

Of course she doesn't get being honest as a principle because being dishonest gets her what she wants-which is the ability to not be responsible for her own actions.  You 100% gave into to her desires . . .in the interest of being compassionate and loving and not wanting to destroy your relationship with her, your actions simply supported her in her current path.

Think about it this way, who at this point has more worry and guilt for her problems-you or her?  Obviously you.  And until she feels the absolute pain and destruction her choices have caused her, she will not change.

"Well here we are a month later.  She has no money save to move out, so she is still at home.  She came home with a tattoo last night.  She is doing whatever she wants even though we asked her to be honest and obey our house rules if she chooses to live with us."

This doesn't surprise me in the least bit.

"It is hard, because we are hurt by the lies, trust is gone, we don't want to be taken advantage of and want to be treated with respect."

This is actually a big part of the problem.  You "want to be treated with respect".  Look, with disobedient kids you don't "want to be treated" you "demand respect" and there is a big, big, big difference.  The first says to the child "honey, I wish you'd pick up your clothes, b/c I have guests coming over, okay????".  The other says, "Alice, you clothes will be picked up by the time the guests get here." And then when the aren't picked up, the hammer gets dropped.  One commands and demands respect, the other simply requests it. And when a parent requests or asks for respect, don't be surprised when the child says "eh, I'd rather not".

"But we also want our daughter to know we love her in spite of her choices, and don't want her to feel that we are cutting her out of our life, or kicking her out of our home unfairly."

Honestly, this is your big problem.  My guess is that throughout her life as a child under your roof you have generally felt this way. As in you want your child to know she is loved "no matter what". And in the process of showing that she is loved no matter what you've taken up her slack and refused to really drop the hammer on her to demonstrate a) some choices in life are unacceptable-you can make them but if you do pain is coming and b) you are not responsible for the choices she makes in her life-you will not shoulder the emotional, physical nor mental sufferings of her bad decisions.

I personally contend that the biggest way a parent can demonstrate love to a child is to help them understand prior to becoming an adult the "hard knocks of life" so that they don't royally screw up their life. If my son or daughter tells me they hate me or think it . . . .I don't care (actually I'd probably discipline them for being disrespectful if they said it, but I don't care if they think it).  My job aint' to be your friend, or your buddy, or your pal or to ensure that they know "that I love them despite their choices" (which goes without saying, I tell my kids I love them all the time, but I still drop the hammer-(metaphorically, it doesn't mean yelling or screaming) when they have unacceptable behavior).

My job is to teach, train and develop. And I will do everything possible to ensure that they are taught properly; i.e. you must accept responsibility for your own actions-it is your life, not mine.  If you make bad choices in life (drugs, alcohol, sex, etc.) bad consequences will follow-you will have to reap those benefits and I'm not going to shoulder it for you.  I'll teach you what good choices and bad choices are-you've got to decide.

At this point-not much you can do.  She's an adult-she'll learn from the hard knocks of life. Best thing you can do tell her you love her, and kick her out of the house. 

Don't provide financial support, love her, give counsel if she wants it but she's got to grow up and stop using you guys as a punching bag for her lack of responsibility.

It sucks, it does-but that's the life of hard knocks-don't learn it when you are young, you learn it when you are older-and the longer you delay it the harder it is to learn it. 

[YJacket]

16 hours ago, mnn727 said:

My opinion: Tell your daughter you love her and no matter what she does she will always be your daughter and welcome at family activities, however If you (meaning she) want to indulge in adult activities (sex, tattoos, etc) then you indulge in all adult activities: Paying rent, purchasing your own: food, clothes, cars, insurance, etc. This involves getting a job if she doesn't have one. Give her a 60 day grace period but be firm, 60 days from now she has a job and starts paying the above or she moves out. STAND FIRM!

Actions have consequences.

Be prepared though - I got the same talk and I moved out. I had nothing to do with any kind of religion for 20 years. Been active now for 24 years (I'm 61 now) Parents are now long gone, but it was the best thing they did for me - forced me to become an adult. Did I make mistakes? sure, but I learned.

Great advice . . .unfortunately in society the way kids are raised is completely jacked up and it's causing all sorts of societal problems.  You had kids who didn't have their act together 50 years ago, but by and large the majority of the parents would have done the same thing as your parents (i.e. it wasn't unusual)-they would have kicked them out or put them in the military.  It sucked for you, you had to learn the hard way, but in the end it was the best thing for you.  It took you a while, but eventually you saw the wisdom of it and are really grateful for it.  By being hard-nosed your parents demonstrated their absolute love for you.

Today's society is so mammy-pamby you have 26+ year old living in their parent's home just simply delaying adulthood and responsibility. And weak-knee'd parents who can't kick their kids out for fear their kids will feel their parents don't love them. You are 18, you are on your own-get a job, go to college, go into the military, etc. It's not my life and I'm not going to be responsible for it.  

I'll still pray to God every night for the kid to get their act together . . .but that's about all I can do.

 

[stemelbow]

I don't exactly know what I'd do or how I'd do it, if in your situation.  But, the thought that comforts me is sticking to your guns, living the way you deem best, can bring a longer term effect that is noticed by children as they age and mature.  It seems to me many kids go through difficulties in their late teen early 20 years.  Whether they come back to Church or not is one thing, but typically they come around to some extent.  They learn drugs isn't helping anyone.  They learn jerkiness and selfishness benefits them nothing.  They learn those who had always been there for them and loved them are still there hoping and waiting. 

I mean honestly I don't know what I'd say or how I'd approach this stuff with her.  I've always prized openness with my kids.  When I learn they are lying, it hurts, no doubt.  But it's going to happen.  You just have to hold on.  I don't mean to minimize the situation you have.  It sounds tough.  I doubt there's an easy fix.  It sounds like years of heart-ache ahead to me.  hopefully it's all pretty temporary and she comes around quickly. 

[mrmarklin]

Two words:

 

Tough Love. 

 

Look it up. You're not doing her any favors with your current lax morality. 

[Gray]

My parents tried the tough love thing, didn't help with some of my siblings. I don't have teenagers yet - I wonder if anyone really has a good answer for this kind of thing.

The only thing you can control at the end of the day is what you choose. I would say keep those lines of communication open.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Gray

[MiserereNobis]

49 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Two words:

 

Tough Love. 

 

Look it up. You're not doing her any favors with your current lax morality. 

The tone of this post is completely inappropriate to direct at someone who is obviously hurting and seeking answers. If this is your example of 'tough love' then I seriously advise Maestrophil to ignore it.

[Tacenda]

I agree with Gray, every situation is unique, and every child is. The communication is important advice, make sure to keep that going. I like the stick one too, the objective lesson may appear a little like a church lesson but if pulled off well, it could work. And the emphasis on treating your child like an adult, I forget to do this. 

I have no business giving advice really, so all I have is empathy, because I've gone through (with other children) and am going through, some things with my 20 year old son who recently returned home. 

I wish you well Maestrophil, and remember..some days are going to be absolutely horrible, but so nice that we can wake up and start anew. 

 

 

 

[Jeanne]

A lot of wonderful responses here.  I could not offer up much more.  Just wanted to add my support.  Wishing M much success and it speaks volumes that you care and trying to understand.  Also, may I thank you for wanted some help from all corners of the world here.  As a non mormon. I am not always asked for any input.

I had some problems with my daughter..but with love and support with firm goals...I have set her on her way.  Just know that it is after all you can do...

Best..Jeanne

[mnn727]

Quote

Lastly, get her butt down to the doctor or health clinic and get her on birth control.  If she is not already on birth control then she needs it yesterday.  Make sure she understands the definition of safe sex and the consequences of ignoring the common sense rules of adult relationships. 

This for sure!!

[mnn727]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

The tone of this post is completely inappropriate to direct at someone who is obviously hurting and seeking answers. If this is your example of 'tough love' then I seriously advise Maestrophil to ignore it.

Tough Love is correct, its what most of the people here posting are saying.

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

This for sure!!

This one is a really hard one..to have to admit that your child is sexually active, but good advice and one that I need to openly discuss with my single children, but have a tough time doing. Might I add that she shouldn't be having sex, or anyone shouldn't that's not married, have sex with someone without a condom.

Oh, life is tough sometimes, why can't they all stay young?

[thesometimesaint]

Keep the lines of communication open as much as you can, but don't enable her misdeeds. If she is old enough to move out on her own she's old enough to pay for it herself.

[katherine the great]

3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Look it up. You're not doing her any favors with your current lax morality. 

What is the lax morality to which you refer?