How to be a tolerant parent?

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This one is a really hard one..to have to admit that your child is sexually active, but good advice and one that I need to openly discuss with my single children, but have a tough time doing. Might I add that she shouldn't be having sex, or anyone shouldn't that's not married, have sex with someone without a condom.

Oh, life is tough sometimes, why can't they all stay young?

You know. when finally going down grocery aisles without having to buy diapers, juice, baby food and all of that..I thought whew...I got through all of that no more worries!  Ar..ar..arr..  yeah right. We are all parents for life. 

[katherine the great]

5 hours ago, YJacket said:

I wish you weren't going through this .. . .but she is 18.  Frankly, you are done teaching and training her.  She is an adult and she needs to learn what it means to be an adult.

I agree with most of what you say--except for this. Some of my grown children regularly seek out teaching from me. I am 55 and am still learning from my parents. My husband is a very successful businessman and still regularly counsels with his father and listens carefully to his advice.  And frankly, most 18 year olds are not adults. Their brains are not fully developed and they only think they know everything.

[Calm]

Just as a FYI, be prepared to be told that she has been pushing the boundaries to see if you really loved her no matter what and that you have shown her you don't by making these rules, etc.

It is both a true and false statement if she says this. Your children need to know your love is unconditional, the problem comes by how they choose to measure your love.  If they choose so you will pretty much fail if you do anything but live like a doormat and cash machine, they aren't learning anything though, but that they can manipulate someone.  That is not the kind of love one can trust.

It can be hard to convey unconditional love when there are other behaviours that do have conditions attached, the important thing is to follow through Imo and if there is evidence of desire to change but it looks like steps are faltering and they aren't going to reach the stated goal, be willing to adapt a little so they can be successful....not give up the whole plan or even most of it, but just show you are intent on being part of making it work, not just the Lawgiver who sets up the requirements and resources, but then leaves her to it on her own until evaluation time.  Reach out a hand to steady stumbling feet, in essence; don't pick her up to carry her across the last stretch.

[YJacket]

5 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I agree with most of what you say--except for this. Some of my grown children regularly seek out teaching from me. I am 55 and am still learning from my parents. My husband is a very successful businessman and still regularly counsels with his father and listens carefully to his advice.  And frankly, most 18 year olds are not adults. Their brains are not fully developed and they only think they know everything.

You are right. When I typed it I was more thinking of active teaching and training.  I'm not sure how to adequately describe it; you go from a role where you are actively involved in teaching to a more passive role-i.e. more of when asked you give your opinion or counsel but when not asked you generally remain quite.  Whereas when children are under your roof you are teach/train whether they want you to or not.

[YJacket]

5 hours ago, katherine the great said:

  And frankly, most 18 year olds are not adults. Their brains are not fully developed and they only think they know everything.

I actually think this is a myth; if adult means they are able (or should be able) to take care of themselves then yes they are adults; otherwise no one is ever really an adult b/c while technically my brain was fully developed in my 20s I've gained much wisdom and maturity the older I get.

18 is plenty old enough to take care of oneself.  100+ years ago, 16-18 year olds were helping to run farms and factories, we've just made it in modern society where we baby kids much longer than they need to and thus they don't have the need to become mentally strong at 18. 

[Duncan]

16 minutes ago, YJacket said:

I actually think this is a myth; if adult means they are able (or should be able) to take care of themselves then yes they are adults; otherwise no one is ever really an adult b/c while technically my brain was fully developed in my 20s I've gained much wisdom and maturity the older I get.

18 is plenty old enough to take care of oneself.  100+ years ago, 16-18 year olds were helping to run farms and factories, we've just made it in modern society where we baby kids much longer than they need to and thus they don't have the need to become mentally strong at 18. 

and that's why they probably got out of building farms and houses and whatnot and made labor saving devices! If Lewis and Clark passed by a Hilton they would've probably stayed there rather than building some campsite or whatever

[katherine the great]

7 minutes ago, YJacket said:

  100+ years ago, 16-18 year olds were helping to run farms and factories, we've just made it in modern society where we baby kids much longer than they need to and thus they don't have the need to become mentally strong at 18. 

I agree but 100 years ago our grandparents were taught how to run farms and factories when they were young. Compulsory education was not as compulsory then and how many kids even live on farms anymore? My grandfather left home to work for the railroad at age 13 because the family was so poor and his father did not provide for them. He was a very hard worker who was absolutely robbed of a normal childhood and he became an alcoholic and died young. It is true that our culture allows and even encourages a longer period of dependence in our children but this is complex problem-not a simple one. To just throw out kids as soon as they turn 18 is rarely feasible now. Where do they live? Rent is sky high in our community compared to what an entry level job pays. Our understanding of brain development is not a myth. The average 18 year old does not process information in the same way that the average 25 year old does.  However, we do know that life history (ontogenetic development) varies among primates and its possible that this late timing in full brain growth in humans is a relatively modern phenomenon that is influenced by environmental/cultural factors. We are living longer now and so there may be a connection to the timing of the completion of brain growth. I do agree though that as a society we are doing a dismal job of preparing our children to be independent.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Just as a FYI, be prepared to be told that she has been pushing the boundaries to see if you really loved her no matter what and that you have shown her you don't by making these rules, etc.

It is both a true and false statement if she says this. Your children need to know your love is unconditional, the problem comes by how they choose to measure your love.  If they choose so you will pretty much fail if you do anything but live like a doormat and cash machine, they aren't learning anything though, but that they can manipulate someone.  That is not the kind of love one can trust.

It can be hard to convey unconditional love when there are other behaviours that do have conditions attached, the important thing is to follow through Imo and if there is evidence of desire to change but it looks like steps are faltering and they aren't going to reach the stated goal, be willing to adapt a little so they can be successful....not give up the whole plan or even most of it, but just show you are intent on being part of making it work, not just the Lawgiver who sets up the requirements and resources, but then leaves her to it on her own until evaluation time.  Reach out a hand to steady stumbling feet, in essence; don't pick her up to carry her across the last stretch.

This is good counsel. She will almost certainly use guilt to try to continue living as she is. She will even probably convince herself she is right and your ultimatums just show you do not love her.

I would tell her she has to leave. At least I think I would and hope I would have the strength to do it. I am not in your situation and I do not have a daughter. I think she needs some time where she is not shielded from the consequences of her actions. Right now she has a house to sleep in, a car, food, and can still do what she wants. She has a safe escape from the harsher world when she needs it so she feels she can play in that world as she wishes but she is only dabbling right now. Let her face the full reality. I doubt the prodigal would have learned his lesson if he had lived at home fully supported by his parents while engaged in riotous living.

 

[mrmarklin]

10 hours ago, katherine the great said:

What is the lax morality to which you refer?

OP is enabling her behaviors by allowing the daughter to manipulate them into giving financial support. Also even though she doesn't obey house rules, she is apparently allowed home whenever she wants.  

 

This is enabling is immoral IMO. 

[MiserereNobis]

12 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Tough Love is correct, its what most of the people here posting are saying.

Please notice that I was criticizing the tone, especially the part about "your current lax morality." That's just mean to say to someone who is hurting and seeking answers. If that is an example of tough love, then tough love is being mean.

On the other hand, the posters who have suggested making her see the consequences of her actions, including not being able to stay at the house, might be advocating tough love, but not with such a tone as I am criticizing. You should be able to see the difference, and the difference in tone is very important right now in how they approach their daughter. Talking about her current lax morality isn't going to help her. Talking to her about adult responsibilities and consequences of choices will.

[katherine the great]

14 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

OP is enabling her behaviors by allowing the daughter to manipulate them into giving financial support. Also even though she doesn't obey house rules, she is apparently allowed home whenever she wants.  

 

This is enabling is immoral IMO. 

The girl just turned 18. Sometimes it takes a bit of time to decide the right course of action.

[MiserereNobis]

24 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

OP is enabling her behaviors by allowing the daughter to manipulate them into giving financial support. Also even though she doesn't obey house rules, she is apparently allowed home whenever she wants.  

 

This is enabling is immoral IMO. 

Man, if this is how you talk to a sincere person in pain who is seeking answers, I can just imagine how you would talk to the OP's daughter. Thank God that her father is the OP, who is truly trying to love and find a path in this difficult situation, and not you.

ETA: Maestrophil, I have no easy answers for you, but I think that if you took this tone with your daughter you would drive her far away. The way we tell someone something is almost as important as what we say to them.

Edited August 4, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[bsjkki]

So, are most of you saying because your daughter leaves the church and embraces a worldly lifestyle, you should cut them off financially, kick them out of the house and not pay for their college like you would your active kids? I have one who has strayed and she has lied to me. She doesn't tell us everything because she lives a different lifestyle that she knows I don't approve of. Her life has been very hard. She works hard and she saved all she could for school expenses and I still made up the rest so she could get her bachelor's degree. She graduated and is employed but her lifestyle keeps me awake at night so I try not to think about it and worry. I did not quit supporting her when she no longer believed. I am still her mom and as parents we still have responsibilities. She still calls me everyday and sends me money to pay back her last 3 months of college living expenses that I supplemented. She got a small tattoo last month. She drinks and bar hops and is sexually active. She knows I love her and we have a great relationship but I mentally disengaged her from being Mormon and treat her as I would anyone else who is not a member of our church. She is a functioning, self sustaining member of society but she would not have been if I had kicked her out at 18. There really are no easy answers. She may crash some day and I will be there to pick up the pieces. When her boyfriend broke it off--I was still there to console her even though I did not like him. I payed for therapy for awhile but she did not find it helpful and quit (I can't make her go)--she still has a lot to work through but I won't ever give up on her. I'm not sure our worst years are in the rear view mirror but it is easier now then when she was younger (her teen years were bad and it took years to understand why). My daughter was a rape victim, attempted suicide, is a type 1 diabetic and possibly bi-polar. But, she still graduated from college and is very good at her job. What an amazing accomplishment for her. Never give up hope on your kids and maintain a relationship through the tough times. Do not take her choices personally.

I would start by requiring her to have a job and then discuss how she plans to become an independent, successful member of society. If she is not in school, she should help with expenses or live independently (including financially independent). I always tell my kids, they don't get to live with me and then have more disposable income than I do because I pay all their expenses. Outside of the church, what are her hopes and dreams for the future? How do you end the fighting and find a productive path forward? 

The drinking and drugs are the real scare here--if she becomes an addict, the road looks bleak but you can't make her stop that either. This article has some good tips for parents and I think you can replace the addictions discussed with any dangerous behaviors. https://www.lds.org/topics/pornography/audiences/parents/creating-a-safe-place-to-talk-about-dangerous-things?lang=eng&old=true You are not alone in this struggle.

 

[YJacket]

10 hours ago, katherine the great said:

 To just throw out kids as soon as they turn 18 is rarely feasible now. Where do they live? Rent is sky high in our community compared to what an entry level job pays. 

I really don't understand this; to me it sounds like an excuse.  I did it perfectly fine 17 years ago, I have a younger brother who did it by going into the military just fine and I have another younger brother who did it just fine this decade.

Yes rent is sky-high, that's why you share a room or get a job in another city or go to college.  This is the same excuse parents use for paying for a kids college education . . .it's too expensive.  Well first off, how do you think it got expensive?  B/c schools found they could pilfer the pockets of parents for a lot more money rather than students.  Look, you've got 18 years to prepare a kid for real life, if you can't do it in 18 years generally speaking another year ain't gonna make a bit of difference.

That's why you have your kids get summer jobs instead of playing video games the entire summer, it's why you prepare them mentally so they know they are on their own.  Today's kids are really in general a bunch of wusses; there is a reason why it is the snowflake generation-b/c parents in general have raised a bunch of kids who can't fend for themselves. This idea of waiting till your 25 is ludicrous.  25 then you are an adult, not married until 30 then have at most 1-2 kids. It's the same reason why people don't have as many kids.  The bottom line is "it's too hard".  It's too hard to make it on your own when you are 18, so just live in your parents basement.  It's too hard to pay for college on your own, so mooch off parents.  It's too hard to have kids so only have one or too.  

No, it's not too hard, I did it-my parents did it, my kids can do it.

In sum, a bunch of wusses. We live in a very, very spoiled and entitled times.  Others can raise their kids as they see fit, not the way I raise mine. You want to have a tough, hard-working, industrious society-you have to raise 'em that way. Humans are inherently lazy, we want to do as little work as possible for as much payout.  That laziness has fueled modern inventions.  I don't want to have to do dishes by hand, so I invent a dish-washer, I don't want to use a machete to cut my grass (I've done that on my mission), I invent a lawnmower, etc. etc.  

A hard-work ethic has to be taught, trained and ingrained-otherwise yeah I'd rather sit around all day playing video games if it was all provided for me.

 

[YJacket]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

So, are most of you saying because your daughter leaves the church and embraces a worldly lifestyle, you should cut them off financially, kick them out of the house and not pay for their college like you would your active kids?

No, I'm saying the rules should be the same regardless, you are 18, bye-you better have some serious plans for getting out of the house.  And no, don't pay for college (IMO one of the dumbest things a parent can do).  It's very interesting how the world has changed.  50 years ago, part of a job interview would very well be, "did your parents pay for college?".  Employers didn't want graduates who were born with a silver spoon in their mouth-b/c they knew it lead to an entitled mentality.  And as someone who has interviewed plenty of young graduates and who owns part of a small business, I can tell you first hand, yes there are some really good candidates out there, but by and large the vast majority I interview are entitled individuals who want to get paid lots of money for not working hard.  It's a big, big problem.

My point is that by paying for an adult financially will lead to more problems than not and especially when an adult refuses to take responsibility for their own life. The responsible adult might accept the assistance but will not do stupid things.  The irresponsible adult will use the financial assistance as a crutch and excuse to not own up to their own problems and to make everyone else to blame for their failures. "Mom and Dad if you had just given me xyz, this wouldn't have happened".

Edited August 4, 2017 by YJacket

[bcuzbcuz]

On 8/2/2017 at 10:11 PM, mnn727 said:

My opinion: Tell your daughter you love her and no matter what she does she will always be your daughter and welcome at family activities, however If you (meaning she) want to indulge in adult activities (sex, tattoos, etc) then you indulge in all adult activities: Paying rent, purchasing your own: food, clothes, cars, insurance, etc. This involves getting a job if she doesn't have one. Give her a 60 day grace period but be firm, 60 days from now she has a job and starts paying the above or she moves out. STAND FIRM!

Actions have consequences.

Be prepared though - I got the same talk and I moved out. I had nothing to do with any kind of religion for 20 years. Been active now for 24 years (I'm 61 now) Parents are now long gone, but it was the best thing they did for me - forced me to become an adult. Did I make mistakes? sure, but I learned.

I agree that actions have consequences. Not always consequences we can foresee nor want.

I did as you premised. "You're an adult. (he was 20 at the time, my step-son) Get a job,  pay your share or move out in 60 days." He got a job, found an apartment and moved out. 

Since that time he has never spoken another word to his mother. He leaves occasions whenever our paths cross. His mother learns details of his life only through others who pass on information they know second hand. 

Actions do have consequences. Sometimes those consequences create hurt for more than decades.

[YJacket]

41 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I agree that actions have consequences. Not always consequences we can foresee nor want.

I did as you premised. "You're an adult. (he was 20 at the time, my step-son) Get a job,  pay your share or move out in 60 days." He got a job, found an apartment and moved out. 

Since that time he has never spoken another word to his mother. He leaves occasions whenever our paths cross. His mother learns details of his life only through others who pass on information they know second hand. 

Actions do have consequences. Sometimes those consequences create hurt for more than decades.

How old is he now?  My guess is at some point in his life he will recognize what a good thing his mother did for him. This is why I teach my kids from a young age, 18-you are on your own.  So no surprises when it happens. And if I have a brat child who does that to their mother . . .well I have some not kind words for them.  One of the 10 commandments comes to mind.  I have a brother who got the heave ho after high-school (he actually went into the military and fought in 2 wars).  He hated with a passion my parents, for many years.  But now he is pretty good contributing member of society.  Even though he hates what happened, if he looks deep he recognizes that something like that had to happen for him to get his act together.  He was in early 30s before he finally figured it out and decided you know it actually really helped him out and without it he would be a lot worse off.

Quite honestly, I know of no other word in the dictionary besides spoiled. As in the soup is spoiled, rotten, bad.  

Really, a kid who is 20 years old getting mad at his mother b/c she forces him to be on his own and won't talk to her since?  Sigh . . .what a rotten son.  If you did it at 14, fine I get it, at 20.  The kid is just rotten.

I honestly wouldn't worry about it, I'm sure he'll figure it out one day. (if you haven't figured it out, I'm pretty old-school . . .)

Edited August 4, 2017 by YJacket

[Calm]

"I honestly wouldn't worry about it..."

What a bizarre thing to say asif feelings can be turned on and off at command or that parents shouldn't care.

"Isaiah 66:13 God as a comforting mother

God: “As a mother comforts her child, so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.”

Isaiah 49:15 God compared to a nursing mother

God: “Can a woman forget her nursing child, or show no compassion for the child of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.”

Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 God as a Mother Hen

Jesus: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”"

http://www.womensordination.org/resources/female-images-of-god-in-the-bible/

Edited August 4, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/ecopreacher/2017/05/jesus-mother-hen/

"The mother hen, like the mother bird who fluttered over the nest egg of the world in Genesis. . .

Like the dove that fluttered away from Noah’s hand over the receding flood waters. . .

Like the dove fluttering from heaven, hovering around Jesus as he emerged from the baptismal waters . . .

Like a mother bird, wings pinned to the cross, still sheltering us from evil.

You can have your king-god.  You can have your warrior-god.  You can have your father-god.  Today, I’m opting for the Mother-Hen-God.  The God who welcomes all her children under her wings, no matter how they behave, or how they look, or what annoying and inappropriate things they do.  The God who opens her heart of healing.  The God who feels what I feel, who validates me as a mother, who assures me that when I have made mistakes, when I have wandered from the right path, and when I have been overwhelmed by the foxes, those holy wings are still spread over me, protecting me, sheltering me, keeping me safe, loving me."

[changed]

On 8/2/2017 at 11:31 AM, Maestrophil said:

So my questions for discussion on this post are:

How does a parent who HATES the choices their adult child are making show true love while not appearing to condone those choices?

Why are teens raised in the church so intent on stepping FAR away from the moral values taught there, rather that just settling for not attending church, if that is not their thing?

Should we put a time limit on her stay, or start charging rent?

Especially if you are not LDS and/or have been on the side my daughter is in now, what can we do as parents to be the most help?

 

TANNK YOU!

 

MP

I am a convert to the church, have kids of my own, and was a very rebellious child myself.  My rebellion started with over-controlling parents - they did everything they could to take away my free agency, and I did everything I could to fight against every controlling thing they did.  You have to remember that Satan's plan was to force everyone to be good - and I think there are many LDS and other religious parents out there who attempt to force their children to be good.  If you love someone, let them go would be my advice on that account.  

Something interesting I observed of the kids on a recent youth trip our stake was involved with.  Some of the kids had spiritual experiences etc. as the intention of the trip was supposed to be, while another chunk of the kids were there with sarcastic skeptical looks on their faces - cussing in various languages, singing inappropriate songs etc.  My daughter was one of the "good" kids on that trip - and sad to say it, but her goodness in this period of her life stems from me being a horrible parent.  We're struggling through some rather serious family issues that she has been in the center of, she has to play the role of the parent due to my work schedule (she is the one who cooks dinner and cleans the house etc.) in short - her imperfect parents have motivated her to turn to a higher power, she's trying to be a good example for us etc. 

My parents were not perfect either - but instead of admitting to me what the problems were and including me in their recoveries, they were dishonest with me - they tried to hide their problems (as most parents do), they were not honest with me and so I was not honest with them.  I think the best thing you can do for teenagers is to be honest with them about your own problems.  Repentance includes confession.  If you can confess your sins to your children, if you can stop hiding things from them and be honest with them - this is the best way to make them feel like they are an adult.  I currently ask my oldest daughter for help - the need is genuine, and she has risen to the occasion.  It has been humiliating as parents to admit our faults to her, and to have to ask her for help - but somehow our problems have become her strength.  

The advice I can give is to let go.  The prodigal child returns after they were allowed to walk out the door and leave.  Let them leave, let them walk out the door, stop trying to control ... stop pretending you are perfect and better than them ... AA works because the mentors in that program first admit their own sins, you have to admit your own sins before you can help another with theirs... would you take advice for how to cook from someone who has never cooked anything?  would you take advice on how to overcome from someone who has never overcome anything?  

go read "Bonds that Make you Free" by terry warner while you wait for them to come back.

Edited August 4, 2017 by changed

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, YJacket said:

I really don't understand this; to me it sounds like an excuse.  I did it perfectly fine 17 years ago, I have a younger brother who did it by going into the military just fine and I have another younger brother who did it just fine this decade.

Yes rent is sky-high, that's why you share a room or get a job in another city or go to college.  This is the same excuse parents use for paying for a kids college education . . .it's too expensive.  Well first off, how do you think it got expensive?  B/c schools found they could pilfer the pockets of parents for a lot more money rather than students.  Look, you've got 18 years to prepare a kid for real life, if you can't do it in 18 years generally speaking another year ain't gonna make a bit of difference.

That's why you have your kids get summer jobs instead of playing video games the entire summer, it's why you prepare them mentally so they know they are on their own.  Today's kids are really in general a bunch of wusses; there is a reason why it is the snowflake generation-b/c parents in general have raised a bunch of kids who can't fend for themselves. This idea of waiting till your 25 is ludicrous.  25 then you are an adult, not married until 30 then have at most 1-2 kids. It's the same reason why people don't have as many kids.  The bottom line is "it's too hard".  It's too hard to make it on your own when you are 18, so just live in your parents basement.  It's too hard to pay for college on your own, so mooch off parents.  It's too hard to have kids so only have one or too.  

No, it's not too hard, I did it-my parents did it, my kids can do it.

In sum, a bunch of wusses. We live in a very, very spoiled and entitled times.  Others can raise their kids as they see fit, not the way I raise mine. You want to have a tough, hard-working, industrious society-you have to raise 'em that way. Humans are inherently lazy, we want to do as little work as possible for as much payout.  That laziness has fueled modern inventions.  I don't want to have to do dishes by hand, so I invent a dish-washer, I don't want to use a machete to cut my grass (I've done that on my mission), I invent a lawnmower, etc. etc.  

A hard-work ethic has to be taught, trained and ingrained-otherwise yeah I'd rather sit around all day playing video games if it was all provided for me.

 

The blanket condemnation that the current generation is weak is adorable considering it usually comes from a generation born with a silver spoon in its mouth. A generation for whom jobs were plentiful and easy to acquire, steadily increasing wages were the norm, and where you could live off of just about any job. Then they pass judgement on kids who cannot find jobs that are not there, cannot live on wages too low to support them, and call them lazy when they frustrated at their lack of opportunities.

Judging the rising generation as weak and reckless is a venerable tradition throughout history. I suspect it is mostly a way for the older generation to pat themselves on the back for being better then their kids. More then a little weird.

[YJacket]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The blanket condemnation that the current generation is weak is adorable considering it usually comes from a generation born with a silver spoon in its mouth. A generation for whom jobs were plentiful and easy to acquire, steadily increasing wages were the norm, and where you could live off of just about any job. Then they pass judgement on kids who cannot find jobs that are not there, cannot live on wages too low to support them, and call them lazy when they frustrated at their lack of opportunities.

Judging the rising generation as weak and reckless is a venerable tradition throughout history. I suspect it is mostly a way for the older generation to pat themselves on the back for being better then their kids. More then a little weird.

You are right, it could be.  But then maybe not.  No silver spoon here.  I have and continue to bust my tail to have what I have.

The jobs are there, but people don't want to take them or they expect to be paid good money for a low skill job.  I know, I hire people both in a small business and a full-time job.  When you are willing to pay someone overtime to work on a weekend to get a job done and the pay is above minimum wage and they say "nah, I'd rather not" and they are a 21+ returned missionary, we've got a problem.  When I was 21 (not that long ago), I busted my tail.  I worked 80+ hour weeks pulling multiple shifts working as a waiter and working another job; my only time off was Sunday.

Please don't give me the tripe that the jobs aren't there.  They are, people just don't want to work.  They want to sit on their butt, get paid a white-collar pay for a blue-collar job-ain't gonna happen. Yes the rising generation is a bunch of wimps.  And if it's too expensive where you live to buy a house, you put everything you own in a 10x10 trailer and you move.

Saying "Judging the rising generation as weak and reckless is a venerable tradition throughout history" is a pretty weak argument and is just something one says as an excuse to make up for their lack of effort. Again, I own a significant portion of a small business.  I see this all the time. A severe lack of work ethic-especially among the younger generation. The only way to make it to the upper rung of the ladder is to start at the bottom-but for a growing portion of the population it's "too hard".

But go ahead and complain about present circumstances.  Those who have the work ethic will not care and will say, thank you sir b/c now I can get ahead.  Those who can do.

Edited August 4, 2017 by YJacket

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, YJacket said:

I really don't understand this; to me it sounds like an excuse.  I did it perfectly fine 17 years ago, I have a younger brother who did it by going into the military just fine and I have another younger brother who did it just fine this decade.

Yes rent is sky-high, that's why you share a room or get a job in another city or go to college.  This is the same excuse parents use for paying for a kids college education . . .it's too expensive.  Well first off, how do you think it got expensive?  B/c schools found they could pilfer the pockets of parents for a lot more money rather than students.  Look, you've got 18 years to prepare a kid for real life, if you can't do it in 18 years generally speaking another year ain't gonna make a bit of difference.

That's why you have your kids get summer jobs instead of playing video games the entire summer, it's why you prepare them mentally so they know they are on their own.  Today's kids are really in general a bunch of wusses; there is a reason why it is the snowflake generation-b/c parents in general have raised a bunch of kids who can't fend for themselves. This idea of waiting till your 25 is ludicrous.  25 then you are an adult, not married until 30 then have at most 1-2 kids. It's the same reason why people don't have as many kids.  The bottom line is "it's too hard".  It's too hard to make it on your own when you are 18, so just live in your parents basement.  It's too hard to pay for college on your own, so mooch off parents.  It's too hard to have kids so only have one or too.  

No, it's not too hard, I did it-my parents did it, my kids can do it.

In sum, a bunch of wusses. We live in a very, very spoiled and entitled times.  Others can raise their kids as they see fit, not the way I raise mine. You want to have a tough, hard-working, industrious society-you have to raise 'em that way. Humans are inherently lazy, we want to do as little work as possible for as much payout.  That laziness has fueled modern inventions.  I don't want to have to do dishes by hand, so I invent a dish-washer, I don't want to use a machete to cut my grass (I've done that on my mission), I invent a lawnmower, etc. etc.  

A hard-work ethic has to be taught, trained and ingrained-otherwise yeah I'd rather sit around all day playing video games if it was all provided for me.

 

that's the problem, just because you can do it doesn't mean others can. That's like saying "here, try my glasses, they work for me" I think a better approach is God helped me do this and he can for you as well, it may be different how he helps you but he will help you

The daughter in the OP had 18 years to get where she is so it may take 18 years to get out of it, hopefully much shorter than that but habits, lifestyles, possible addictions we don't jump into them all at once but strand by strand and so to get out of it we need to unravel it one strand at a time

Edited August 4, 2017 by Duncan

[mnn727]

4 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I agree that actions have consequences. Not always consequences we can foresee nor want.

I did as you premised. "You're an adult. (he was 20 at the time, my step-son) Get a job,  pay your share or move out in 60 days." He got a job, found an apartment and moved out. 

Since that time he has never spoken another word to his mother. He leaves occasions whenever our paths cross. His mother learns details of his life only through others who pass on information they know second hand. 

Actions do have consequences. Sometimes those consequences create hurt for more than decades.

Yeah, it happens, my case was similar, while I didn't cut off contact totally with my parents, I sure didn't go out of my way to make contact -- but I grew up and that ended and we had a good relationship for a couple decades prior to their deaths.

What are you going to do? let them do whatever they want while you continue to support them? Not going to happen in my house!

Edited August 4, 2017 by mnn727

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, YJacket said:

You are right, it could be.  But then maybe not.  No silver spoon here.  I have and continue to bust my tail to have what I have.

The jobs are there, but people don't want to take them or they expect to be paid good money for a low skill job.  I know, I hire people both in a small business and a full-time job.  When you are willing to pay someone overtime to work on a weekend to get a job done and the pay is above minimum wage and they say "nah, I'd rather not" and they are a 21+ returned missionary, we've got a problem.  When I was 21 (not that long ago), I busted my tail.  I worked 80+ hour weeks pulling multiple shifts working as a waiter and working another job; my only time off was Sunday.

Please don't give me the tripe that the jobs aren't there.  They are, people just don't want to work.  They want to sit on their butt, get paid a white-collar pay for a blue-collar job-ain't gonna happen. Yes the rising generation is a bunch of wimps.  And if it's too expensive where you live to buy a house, you put everything you own in a 10x10 trailer and you move.

Saying "Judging the rising generation as weak and reckless is a venerable tradition throughout history" is a pretty weak argument and is just something one says as an excuse to make up for their lack of effort. Again, I own a significant portion of a small business.  I see this all the time. A severe lack of work ethic-especially among the younger generation. The only way to make it to the upper rung of the ladder is to start at the bottom-but for a growing portion of the population it's "too hard".

But go ahead and complain about present circumstances.  Those who have the work ethic will not care and will say, thank you sir b/c now I can get ahead.  Those who can do.

I think the reason you have trouble hiring is your mindset. I have worked for people like you who think anyone who will not work 60+ hours a week for a pittance are just wusses. They also tend to exaggerate how much and how hard they work to justify making unreasonable demands on their employees. Just saying.