“Religious freedom is indeed under attack,” Elder Christofferson

[thesometimesaint]

We all have influences. Some good some bad, most neutral. We still get to decide which we listen to.

[JLHPROF]

36 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

We all have influences. Some good some bad, most neutral. We still get to decide which we listen to.

I quote again:
"One case was very distressing. We found the sister possessed of the devil and a burning fever on the brain. She was raging and trying to tear herself, although [being held down by] the hands of three or four men. We laid hands upon her and commanded the devil to depart and the fever to stand rebuked in the name of Jesus Christ, and it was done, though not without a great struggle."  Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 1:408

Sometimes things aren't as simple as you make them sound.

[thesometimesaint]

SEE

 

[JLHPROF]

23 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

SEE

 

So all possessions are just seizures?

And the ones Christ actually spoke to and cast out into swine?
Would have been nice if Christ new there were no demons don't you think?

[Kenngo1969]

But back to the subject of the thread.  ("Meanwhile, back at the ranch ...")  It's easy to confuse what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say about this topic with the position of the Church of Jesus Christ, but the two are not identical, not synonymous, and do not necessarily correspond.  While the former are entitled to their opinion(s), those opinions should not be confused with the position of the latter.  But, as the degeneration of this thread shows, that sort of nuance doesn't tend to prevail in discussions on the topic.  

Is it important for members of the Church of Jesus Christ to take an unapologetic stand in support of the Church's position on traditional marriage?  Yes.  But how one chooses to do so can have a tremendous impact on how the Church of Jesus Christ itself is perceived.  One may take a "scorched earth," "take-no-prisoners" approach, and can attempt to impart Living Water through a fire hose set at full blast without regard to the condition of the seeds and of the soil, or one can take a more prudent approach, disagreeing as necessary without being disagreeable, loving the sinner while not tolerating the sin, and so on.

I wouldn't necessarily blame people for attempting to isolate, marginalize, and otherwise persecute people of faith based on the manner in which some opinions regarding homosexuality, gay marriage, and related matters have been expressed.  Perhaps there is a parallel in the early days of the Restoration: while I don't condone, in any way, the atrocities committed on members of the Church of Jesus Christ by enemies of the Church, some Church members didn't help their own cause by how they chose to interact with their neighbors, crowing about how enemies of the Church would be trod under the feet of her members when Zion was soon to be established, and so on.  In my opinion, we can stand for what we see as/know to be right without providing too much fodder for those who disagree with us.  If we're not wise in such matters, and if persecution is heaped upon us as a result, in large part, we'll have only ourselves to blame.  

 

[Ahab]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Zoramites prayer might fit your situation wonderfully. Ever used it?

No, you obviously don't understand.

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

But back to the subject of the thread.  ("Meanwhile, back at the ranch ...")  It's easy to confuse what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say about this topic with the position of the Church of Jesus Christ, but the two are not identical, not synonymous, and do not necessarily correspond.  While the former are entitled to their opinion(s), those opinions should not be confused with the position of the latter.  But, as the degeneration of this thread shows, that sort of nuance doesn't tend to prevail in discussions on the topic.  

Is it important for members of the Church of Jesus Christ to take an unapologetic stand in support of the Church's position on traditional marriage?  Yes.  But how one chooses to do so can have a tremendous impact on how the Church of Jesus Christ itself is perceived.  One may take a "scorched earth," "take-no-prisoners" approach, and can attempt to impart Living Water through a fire hose set at full blast without regard to the condition of the seeds and of the soil, or one can take a more prudent approach, disagreeing as necessary without being disagreeable, loving the sinner while not tolerating the sin, and so on.

I wouldn't necessarily blame people for attempting to isolate, marginalize, and otherwise persecute people of faith based on the manner in which some opinions regarding homosexuality, gay marriage, and related matters have been expressed.  Perhaps there is a parallel in the early days of the Restoration: while I don't condone, in any way, the atrocities committed on members of the Church of Jesus Christ by enemies of the Church, some Church members didn't help their own cause by how they chose to interact with their neighbors, crowing about how enemies of the Church would be trod under the feet of her members when Zion was soon to be established, and so on.  In my opinion, we can stand for what we see as/know to be right without providing too much fodder for those who disagree with us.  If we're not wise in such matters, and if persecution is heaped upon us as a result, in large part, we'll have only ourselves to blame.  

No, it's never our fault when evil people choose to do evil things to us latter-day saints, and you shouldn't be suggesting that it is our fault, either.

It's not as if we should have to be totally and perfectly good to avoid evil people wanting to do evil things to us, and doing good things only encourages evil people to do more and more evil things to us, anyway.

All good people should continue to do all the good they can do while speaking out about anything and everything that is evil, regardless of what evil people do in response to good actions.

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So all possessions are just seizures?

And the ones Christ actually spoke to and cast out into swine?
Would have been nice if Christ new there were no demons don't you think?

and how do you know that happened? New Testament Gospels accounts are not completely reliable. In fact none of the four Gospels were written by eyewitnesses, most eyewitnesses didn't know how to read and write, let alone in Greek. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

No, you obviously don't understand.

No, you said you were like Jesus looking around at all the inferior people surrounding you. I believe the Zoramite prayer would fit you quite well.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, you said you were like Jesus looking around at all the inferior people surrounding you. I believe the Zoramite prayer would fit you quite well.

Well when some of the people hanging around me are demons it's not that hard for me to be a better person than them.

But yes I still love them because they are still my brothers and sisters, evil though they now be.

[Kenngo1969]

54 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, it's never our fault when evil people choose to do evil things to us latter-day saints, and you shouldn't be suggesting that it is our fault, either.

It's not as if we should have to be totally and perfectly good to avoid evil people wanting to do evil things to us, and doing good things only encourages evil people to do more and more evil things to us, anyway.

All good people should continue to do all the good they can do while speaking out about anything and everything that is evil, regardless of what evil people do in response to good actions.

 

You might want to read my post again.  I'm not suggesting that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have no right to speak out against things that are evil and wrong, nor have I ever suggested that they are responsible for the persecution they have endured.  Persecution, by its nature, is never deserved. What I am suggesting is that there is a vast difference between, "Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and sex outside of marriage is wrong," on the one hand, and "Homosexuals are Sodomites who are going to hell" [I'm simply using that as an example and not attributing it to anyone in the thread in particular] on the other.  The first is the clearly-articulated, consistent position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, while the second is an inflammatory rhetoric intended less to inform than to create division and to wound.  

Whether anyone in this thread has engaged in such rhetoric, it is all too common among people of faith, but, rather than making the necessary distinction between a faith and its adherents, instead, often, people hearing such rhetoric conclude that faiths such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hate gays, et cetera, and, in turn, conclude that persecution of faiths and of their adherents are justified, First Amendment notwithstanding.  "The guilty taketh the truth to be hard," but if the shoe doesn't fit, you don't have to wear it.

[TheSkepticChristian]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

people hearing such rhetoric conclude that faiths such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hate gays, et cetera, and, in turn, conclude that persecution of faiths and of their adherents are justified

1. I think they are mad because the church was involved in on the Yes on 8 campaign, they simply want a seperation of church and state. 

2. Criticism is not persecution, like you say, it's the first amendment. 

3. I don't think a significant number of atheists persecuting religious people, I think it is the other way around. 

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[sunstoned]

8 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

1. I think they are mad because the church was involved in on the Yes on 8 campaign, they simply want a seperation of church and state. 

2. Criticism is not persecution, like you say, it's the first amendment. 

3. I don't think a significant number of atheists persecuting religious people, I think it is the other way around. 

 

If seems that some confuse criticism with persecution, and as you mentioned, it is not the case.  A lot of people, including many members, are disappointed with the recent policy, and many are upset over the handling of prop 8 by the church.  This is not persecution.  This is expressing an opinion. Opinions, logic, rational thought and acceptance are not things that threaten the church.  They might inform the membership, but for an organization that values truth, this should not be threatening at all.

[thesometimesaint]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So all possessions are just seizures?

And the ones Christ actually spoke to and cast out into swine?
Would have been nice if Christ new there were no demons don't you think?

I have no problem with God. I do have problems with what some claim he does.

[rodheadlee]

On 6/29/2016 at 10:51 AM, rockpond said:

Elder Christofferson was the keynote speaker at the Freedom Festival Patriotic Service in Provo, Utah, Sunday, June 26, 2016.

Article with summary of his address:  http://www.ldsdaily.com/church-lds/elder-christofferson-says-religious-freedom-fire/

A couple of notable quotes from the article:

I believe this is correct but an interesting choice of examples... wasn't the Bible used to justify slavery?

I believe that shaming and intimidation are used on both sides of the issue.  But I am not aware of any LDS practices regarding marriage, family, gender, and sexuality being suppressed.

It's not an LDS only problem. It is a world wide problem. Our Christian brothers and sisters in the Middle East and Africa are being wholesale slaughtered. Just because they are not LDS does not excuse them from the persecution discussion. The situation in Russia is deteriorating as was so eloquently pointed out in the news. 

[thesometimesaint]

Just because most people slaughtered in the Middle East aren't Christian doesn't excuse them from the persecution discussion.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Just because most people slaughtered in the Middle East aren't Christian doesn't excuse them from the persecution discussion.

Amen. Hindus, Jews, you name it. Just last week:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/01/asia/bangladesh-priest-hacking/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/israeli-american-girl-13-knifed-death-bed-article-1.2694799

Whoever says religious freedom isn't under attack has their head in the sand!

[thesometimesaint]

Unfortunately it has been under attack for a very long time.

[Teancum]

On July 3, 2016 at 11:19 AM, rodheadlee said:

It's not an LDS only problem. It is a world wide problem. Our Christian brothers and sisters in the Middle East and Africa are being wholesale slaughtered. Just because they are not LDS does not excuse them from the persecution discussion. The situation in Russia is deteriorating as was so eloquently pointed out in the news. 

Wholesale slaughtered ?  Yes there is killing of Christians in some places in the world but wholesale?  CFR please. 

Where we see a lot of wholesale slaughter is radical Islamic sects killing other Muslims they don't agree with.  The most recent suicide bombings in Bagdahd, which are a couple of many, bear this out. 

[rodheadlee]

57 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Wholesale slaughtered ?  Yes there is killing of Christians in some places in the world but wholesale?  CFR please. 

Where we see a lot of wholesale slaughter is radical Islamic sects killing other Muslims they don't agree with.  The most recent suicide bombings in Bagdahd, which are a couple of many, bear this out. 

Really, you need me to Google Isis kills Christians for you?

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Really, you need me to Google Isis kills Christians for you?

That it does. It has also killed many more Muslims.

[rodheadlee]

17 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

That it does. It has also killed many more Muslims.

Of course. there are many more Muslims in the area than Christians. You keep reading something into my posts that just isn't there. I thought the OP was regarding religious persecution of Christians. Here is an estimated body count of jihad against all non Muslim religions. Perhaps you can supply the body count of the Muslims from their own kind.

https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/

Edited July 4, 2016 by rodheadlee

[Thinking]

People on both sides of the issue are free to give their opinions. If somebody disagrees with your opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean that religious freedom is under attack. If you are prevented from going to your chosen house of worship, that's when you will know that religious freedom is under attack.

By the way, religious freedom includes the right to not believe in religion.

[thesometimesaint]

21 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Of course. there are many more Muslims in the area than Christians. You keep reading something into my posts that just isn't there. I thought the OP was regarding religious persecution of Christians. Here is an estimated body count of jihad against all non Muslim religions. Perhaps you can supply the body count of the Muslims from their own kind.

https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/muslims-are-the-victims-of-between-82-and-97-of-terrorism-related-fatalities-us-government/5516565

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/muslims-are-the-victims-of-between-82-and-97-of-terrorism-related-fatalities-us-government/5516565

So I guess it is safe to say religious freedom is indeed under attack.