“Religious freedom is indeed under attack,” Elder Christofferson

[Atheist Mormon]

19 hours ago, Ahab said:

I see how it could seem ridiculous if not correctly understood, and as I already said, to understand this issue correctly you would need to understand what is involved as Christ understands it.

No. it is not how "Christ understands it". you are interpreting the thought of Christ according to your thoughts. as Gospels writers did.....

[bcuzbcuz]

15 hours ago, Ahab said:

Postponing, I said.  It is not denying baptism to them.  It is just postponing it.

First try to correctly understand that it is only a delay before you try to understand the reason the proper authorities have decided that there should be a delay because of specific circumstances.

And yes I know that delays are not particularly fun, especially when someone wants to have something done to them or for them.  

I've been in the hospital for almost a week now waiting for my wife to have an operation and it hasn't been particularly fun waiting for it.  But my wife didn't do anything wrong to cause the delay and there have been good reasons for all of this waiting.

Your wife has had to wait for surgery. Wouldn't you be pissed if it turned out to be policy that people with Arabic names (or their avatar sounded Arabic) must wait before surgery can be granted.....even to wives or kids whose Dad chooses the name Ahab?

[thesometimesaint]

21 hours ago, Gray said:

I actively oppose the church's position on gay marriage. They're happy to let my child be baptized, though. 

Are you in a SSM?

[Gray]

20 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Are you in a SSM?

Nope, I'm straight and married to a woman. Therefore I sit in the front of the bus. 

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No. it is not how "Christ understands it". you are interpreting the thought of Christ according to your thoughts. as Gospels writers did.....

No, and there is no good reason for me or anyone else to accept your opinions on spiritual issues like this.

But just so you can say that you have been told, Christ shares his mind with people so they can understand what he thinks and then the people who accept what he tells them try to share what he thinks and feels with other people as well as we know how to do that.

In the future just try to pay attention to him and don't even try to correct or change what he thinks and feels.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Nope, I'm straight and married to a woman. Therefore I sit in the front of the bus. 

We don't try people for their thoughts.

[california boy]

22 hours ago, kllindley said:

California Boy,

I mean it just seems like you think the church is the moral equivalent of the KKK.  Fine.  I can accept that.  But doesn't it seem weird to then be furious when the KKK doesn't accept a white boy adopted by two black people to join?  You don't wonder why these black parents would support their 8 year old joining the KKK?

I have no idea where you got the idea that I think the church is the moral equivalent of the KKK.  Did you not read my earlier remarks in this thread?  I think the church does a LOT of things right.  I encourage my children to stay involved in the church.  They find it supportive and helpful in their lives.  The church teaches principles that truly help them live fulfilled and happy lives.

But the church treats gays and their families like crap.  If my child was gay, I would strongly advise them to not be a part of the church.  The church introduces policies that cause nothing but pain to gay families and without any real reason or to solve any real problem.  It is just another attack lobbied at gays.  The church actively works to take away the civil rights of gays.  It is wrong.  It should stop.  When every single federal and district court in this country including the Supreme Court rules that gay marriage is a civil right, it is blatantly clear.  Gay marriage is a civil right.  Those that try to prevent gays from marrying are fighting to take away that civil right based on their religious belief and not on the laws of the land.  And that is what I have voiced so strongly.

It is no secret that the Mormon church ranks at the very bottom of peoples perception of how churches treat gays.  There are real reasons why it holds that distinction.  I get that you have figured out a way to make the church work for you.  And like my children, I wish you the best.  But by far, you are an exception to how most gay members deal with the practices and policies towards gays that the church seems to be hell bent on following.  Does ANYONE think that the relationship of the church towards it's gay members and the gay community is going to improve if the church continues down this current path.

And  just to be perfectly clear, though I have repeated this over and over and over again.  No I do not expect or hope that the church accept gay marriage as part of it's teachings or doctrine.  That is not what this is about.  I don't expect the church to change it's stance on chastity.  That is not what this is about.  

Yeah.  for some reason I have to put this in bold letters.  I should probably underline it and enlarge the type by 50% as well.  

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

And  just to be perfectly clear, though I have repeated this over and over and over again.  No I do not expect or hope that the church accept gay marriage as part of it's teachings or doctrine.  That is not what this is about.  I don't expect the church to change it's stance on chastity.  That is not what this is about.  

So just to be clear (again?), what is it that you think this is about?

If this is about you or others thinking Church members should not be sharin what we think and believe with others, you might as well forgetaboutit.

[california boy]

28 minutes ago, Ahab said:

So just to be clear (again?), what is it that you think this is about?

If this is about you or others thinking Church members should not be sharin what we think and believe with others, you might as well forgetaboutit.

Did you even read what I posted?  I thought I was very clear what this is about.  I never said I have a problem with church members speaking out about what they believe.  I also believe the church has ever legal right to speak out about SSM.  But that does not mean that this is not about taking away the civil rights of gays. If the church thinks it is a good idea to campaign to take away anyone's civil rights, then go ahead.  But that doesn't mean that it is morally right or that the church should not be condemned for working to take away anyone's civil rights.  Forcing others to follow your beliefs by passing laws is what the war in heaven was fought over.  Trying to pretend that God is on your side to force others to follow your religious beliefs is a pretty difficult position to hold.  That would be Satan's plan if you remember.  

When you participate in the public square, you should expect criticism for your actions.  That is how it works.  If you don't want the criticism for working to take away anyone's civil rights, then DON'T campaign to try and do it.

 

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Did you even read what I posted?  I thought I was very clear what this is about.  I never said I have a problem with church members speaking out about what they believe.  I also believe the church has ever legal right to speak out about SSM.  But that does not mean that this is not about taking away the civil rights of gays. If the church thinks it is a good idea to campaign to take away anyone's civil rights, then go ahead.  But that doesn't mean that it is morally right or that the church should not be condemned for working to take away anyone's civil rights.  Forcing others to follow your beliefs by passing laws is what the war in heaven was fought over.  Trying to pretend that God is on your side to force others to follow your religious beliefs is a pretty difficult position to hold.  That would be Satan's plan if you remember.  

When you participate in the public square, you should expect criticism for your actions.  That is how it works.  If you don't want the criticism for working to take away anyone's civil rights, then DON'T campaign to try and do it.

 

Until the 2015 Supreme Court ruling, it was not recognized as a civil right.  Even the ruling acknowledges that.  After that, the church has done nothing in the US to seek to take away civil rights.  Elder Oaks condemned the actions of Kim Davis.  

As far as forcing others to follow your beliefs through law, this is a disingenuous argument (though perhaps you genuinely believe it makes sense.)  Western Law is founded on religious principles. I believe that there is a legitimate argument about how strictly to apply those religious values.  I believe that any society can go too far in legislating morality.  And good, honest people can and do disagree about where to draw the distinction between the two.  But to claim that it is unethical to pass laws informed by religious belief is ridiculous.  

[kllindley]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

The church actively works to take away the civil rights of gays

CFR that the Church has made any effort to combat legality of SSM since July 2015.

[kllindley]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

Nope, I'm straight and married to a woman. Therefore I sit in the front of the bus. 

Therefore you know better than LGBT Mormons what we think/want/need than we do, based on the stories you've heard from LGBT ex-mormons.  That's quite a privilege.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

When you participate in the public square, you should expect criticism for your actions.  That is how it works.  If you don't want the criticism for working to take away anyone's civil rights, then DON'T campaign to try and do it.

 

I think most people expect criticism when sharing their thoughts and beliefs with others, but usually only from those who disagree with those thoughts and beliefs.  Otherwise instead of criticism people usually expect to hear sustaining thoughts on those issues.

And there never will come a day when everybody agrees on what everyone's civil rights should be, which means there will always be people who think something is good and right while some other people believe it is not good and wrong.

You can deal with that, can't you?  

I am always going to be one of those people who thinks SSM is not right and not good and therefore something that people should not be doing.  And you can say it is good and right as long as you want to.  Just know that I will be opposed to you on that as long as you do.

[Jeanne]

31 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think most people expect criticism when sharing their thoughts and beliefs with others, but usually only from those who disagree with those thoughts and beliefs.  Otherwise instead of criticism people usually expect to hear sustaining thoughts on those issues.

And there never will come a day when everybody agrees on what everyone's civil rights should be, which means there will always be people who think something is good and right while some other people believe it is not good and wrong.

You can deal with that, can't you?  

I am always going to be one of those people who thinks SSM is not right and not good and therefore something that people should not be doing.  And you can say it is good and right as long as you want to.  Just know that I will be opposed to you on that as long as you do.

So..you don' think that any real bad PR on the church will change anything?

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

So..you don' think that any real bad PR on the church will change anything?

Uh, no.  This isn't a popularity contest.

Christ was persecuted so we expect to be persecuted too, or at least not be so likeable that everybody wants to give us a lot of rep points.

It's kinda sad, in a way, but there it is.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Ahab

[california boy]

2 hours ago, kllindley said:

Until the 2015 Supreme Court ruling, it was not recognized as a civil right.  Even the ruling acknowledges that.  After that, the church has done nothing in the US to seek to take away civil rights.  Elder Oaks condemned the actions of Kim Davis.  

As far as forcing others to follow your beliefs through law, this is a disingenuous argument (though perhaps you genuinely believe it makes sense.)  Western Law is founded on religious principles. I believe that there is a legitimate argument about how strictly to apply those religious values.  I believe that any society can go too far in legislating morality.  And good, honest people can and do disagree about where to draw the distinction between the two.  But to claim that it is unethical to pass laws informed by religious belief is ridiculous.  

You are absolutely completely WRONG.  The Supreme Court of California ruled against Prop 22 in 2008 and stated in that ruling that gay couples have the civil right to marry in the state of California.  Prior to Prop 9, it was legal for gay couples to marry based on the rights established in the California Constitution.  So YES the church did in fact campaign against the civil rights of gay couples to marry.  

Where did I say it was unethical to pass laws informed by religious belief???  I only said that the church mounted a campaign to take away the civil rights of Americans.  And that is what is immoral.  To deny someone's constitutional rights because of religious belief, as every single federal and district court in this country including the Supreme Court of California before Prop 9 and the United States Supreme Court after prop 9 is immoral.  Shame on the church.  And shame on the church for continuing this behavior in Mexico and now Australia.  

Taking away the civil right to marry for gay couples in California was forcing them to follow the Mormon churches religious belief.  That is far different than laws such as murder, rape, theft etc that while they share religious ideas, they also share Greek, Roman and virtually every other civilized laws in the world.  We don't pass those type of moral laws because they are Christian values.  We pass them because they are universal moral values that even people who hold no religious belief generally follow.  Do you see the difference here?  Gay marriage is hardly a universally accepted moral belief.  In FACT as you know, the majority of Americans believe and support gay marriage.  Generally those that oppose it, do it on the basis of religious belief.

[Atheist Mormon]

7 hours ago, Ahab said:

No, and there is no good reason for me or anyone else to accept your opinions on spiritual issues like this.

But just so you can say that you have been told, Christ shares his mind with people so they can understand what he thinks and then the people who accept what he tells them try to share what he thinks and feels with other people as well as we know how to do that.

In the future just try to pay attention to him and don't even try to correct or change what he thinks and feels.

Of course you do not have to accept my opinions in issues like this....

Nevertheless as I've said...."No. it is not how "Christ understands it". you are interpreting the thought of Christ according to your thoughts. as Gospels writers did....." I'm not trying correcting you here....just because you are skewing what those scriptures means, doesn't make it so....That's all.

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Uh, no.  This isn't a popularity contest.

Christ was persecuted so we expect to be persecuted too, or at least not be so likeable that everybody wants to give us a lot of rep points.

It's kinda sad, in a way, but there it is.

I was just pointing out that what is good and right..sometimes changes with the times. 

[Ahab]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I was just pointing out that what is good and right..sometimes changes with the times. 

No, I don't think so.  SSM, for example, is still wrong now and will always be wrong regardless of any time when any people may think it is right.

[Calm]

I am doomed.

 

[thesometimesaint]

12 hours ago, Ahab said:

No, I don't think so.  SSM, for example, is still wrong now and will always be wrong regardless of any time when any people may think it is right.

That is fine as a religious belief, but unsupportable as a law of the state.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

That is fine as a religious belief, but unsupportable as a law of the state.

Correct.
The state is there to do the will of the people, and the more corrupt the people become the more corrupt the state does.
Fortunately God has said he will make an end of ALL nations.  No more state.

[california boy]

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think most people expect criticism when sharing their thoughts and beliefs with others, but usually only from those who disagree with those thoughts and beliefs.  Otherwise instead of criticism people usually expect to hear sustaining thoughts on those issues.

And there never will come a day when everybody agrees on what everyone's civil rights should be, which means there will always be people who think something is good and right while some other people believe it is not good and wrong.

You can deal with that, can't you?  

I am always going to be one of those people who thinks SSM is not right and not good and therefore something that people should not be doing.  And you can say it is good and right as long as you want to.  Just know that I will be opposed to you on that as long as you do.

Of course I can deal with it.  While the civil rights of gay couples was taken away for a short time by Prop 9, in the end the courts reversed this and firmly declared their right to marry just like everyone else in this country.  The majority of Americans not only agree with this decision, but support it.  Gay couples have no need of the approval of the 1% of the population that is Mormon.  

You are, of course entitled to what ever religious belief you may have just like every other American.   And I would defend your right to hold such a belief.  The church can continue to fight to take away the civil rights of gay couples.  But you and I both know, that is never going to happen.  If the church wants to further define itself as an organization that is willing to take away the civil rights of gays to force their beliefs on others, then they are welcome to continue to earn such a reputation.  I think by now it is pretty clear that equal rights is going to continue to win out not only in America but across the world.  And thank goodness.  It is what equality is all about.  While it is difficult for me to understand how someone can be ok with the church working to take away the civil rights of others, I have firmly decided that is certainly their option.  They should be prepared for the fallout they receive for trying to do so.  It is that simple.

The arch of justice will always bend towards equality. liberty and justice  We have long since broken the shackles of oppression that religion has exerted on western civilization.  It is not coming back any time soon.

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Correct.
The state is there to do the will of the people, and the more corrupt the people become the more corrupt the state does.
Fortunately God has said he will make an end of ALL nations.  No more state.

Somewhat true. We, in the US, have a written constitution which limits the majority in imposing its will upon the minority. We  can and do change our constitution from time to time, however. I don't believe that we are as corrupt as some like to think, nor as good as some like to think.

Until such time I want a say in how my government functions.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Correct.
The state is there to do the will of the people, and the more corrupt the people become the more corrupt the state does.
Fortunately God has said he will make an end of ALL nations.  No more state.

The state is also there to guard against those that seek to take away the guaranteed rights of it's citizens.  While it may take time, in the end, those rights have always been upheld.  

I am willing to abide by the will of God.  And I look forward to Him coming and straightening this mess out.  I firmly believe that the Mormon church doesn't have any more of an idea what the will of God is than any other man or organization on earth.  Giving someone the title of prophet or apostle does not mean that they speak to or for God.  We certainly have learned that lesson well haven't we.  I also have no idea what God thinks on this matter.  What I am willing to do is to put my trust in God and not man.  Until then, we are subject to the laws of the land.  And we fight for liberty and freedom to live our lives according to the dictates of our conscious.