“Religious freedom is indeed under attack,” Elder Christofferson

[Aron]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Trump the Serial Adulterer 2016!

so who do you suggest is not a serial adulterer that could campaign for righteous politics and not a continual repeat of abuse of corruption and secret combinations?

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Aron said:

so who do you suggest is not a serial adulterer that could campaign for righteous politics and not a continual repeat of abuse of corruption and secret combinations?

I would say me but I am a card-carrying member of the inner cabal of the Illuminati.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, The Nehor said:

I would say me but I am a card-carrying member of the inner cabal of the Illuminati.

Hey, next time we're in Utah, let's have lunch in the tunnels with the other shape-shifting reptilians. 

[USU78]

18 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Aron, I think you are confusing two issues.  Individuals merit hell by choosing to sin.  An individual who has SSA or is "gay" is not consciously choosing sin any more than anyone else.  It takes action to commit sin - specifically homosexual behavior - to commit sin.  There is a big difference and we need to be extremely clear on this distinction. 

I would agree that, in a vacuum and without considering anything else, that (1) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome may well be the same thing, and (2) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome aren't necessarily evidence of sin.

On the other hand, I do not discount the possibility that (1) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome are or can be the result of embracement of sin, and (2) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome are or can be the result of demonic influence.

BUT you can't tell by looking at somebody exactly what's going on.  Proof's in the pudding.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I would agree that, in a vacuum and without considering anything else, that (1) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome may well be the same thing, and (2) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome aren't necessarily evidence of sin.

On the other hand, I do not discount the possibility that (1) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome are or can be the result of embracement of sin, and (2) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome are or can be the result of demonic influence.

BUT you can't tell by looking at somebody exactly what's going on.  Proof's in the pudding.

I'm reminded of the time someone told me that my LDS testimony was the result of demonic influence. Proof's in the pudding, I guess.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I would agree that, in a vacuum and without considering anything else, that (1) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome may well be the same thing, and (2) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome aren't necessarily evidence of sin.

On the other hand, I do not discount the possibility that (1) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome are or can be the result of embracement of sin, and (2) identifying as homosexual and having same sex attraction syndrome are or can be the result of demonic influence.

BUT you can't tell by looking at somebody exactly what's going on.  Proof's in the pudding.

same sex attraction syndrome?  Result of demonic influence?  Alright this is about the point in time I say, I have no clue what you think you know about all of this, but it certainly sounds like you are speaking presumptuously, at the very least. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, stemelbow said:

same sex attraction syndrome?  Result of demonic influence?  Alright this is about the point in time I say, I have no clue what you think you know about all of this, but it certainly sounds like you are speaking presumptuously, at the very least. 

I think it's a safe bet that when someone refers to others as perverts, abominations, mentally ill, and influenced by demons, it doesn't come from a place of love.

[USU78]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm reminded of the time someone told me that my LDS testimony was the result of demonic influence. Proof's in the pudding, I guess.

Are you saying that having a testimony and being under the influence of the Adversary are not logically inconsistent?

I agree.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, USU78 said:

Are you saying that having a testimony and being under the influence of the Adversary are not logically inconsistent?

I agree.

"Not logically inconsistent" is a double-negative, so it would mean "having a testimony and being under the influence are logically consistent." Did you mean to say that?

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think it's a safe bet that when someone refers to others as perverts, abominations, mentally ill, and influenced by demons, it doesn't come from a place of love.

I think I am influenced by demons and usually still love myself.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I think I am influenced by demons and usually still love myself.

I don't need demons to do wrong. I take the responsibility for my choices.

[USU78]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

"Not logically inconsistent" is a double-negative, so it would mean "having a testimony and being under the influence are logically consistent." Did you mean to say that?

That isn't what the sentence means, but I'm pretty sure you knew that.  Let me be plain:  one can have a testimony and be under the influence of the Adversary at the same time.  Doesn't have to happen and would be, probably, extraordinarily rare, but it could happen.  There's New Testament evidence of the phenomenon.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, USU78 said:

That isn't what the sentence means, but I'm pretty sure you knew that.  Let me be plain:  one can have a testimony and be under the influence of the Adversary at the same time.  Doesn't have to happen and would be, probably, extraordinarily rare, but it could happen.  There's New Testament evidence of the phenomenon.

That isn't what I was told. Rather, said Christian told me that my testimony was a result of demonic influence, not independent of it.

Seriously, though, demonic influence? Who talks like that? We don't need demons, as we're selfish enough on our own. Blaming our actions on demons is ludicrous.

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't need demons to do wrong. I take the responsibility for my choices.

Me too usually but they serve in an advisory capacity.

[USU78]

21 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That isn't what I was told. Rather, said Christian told me that my testimony was a result of demonic influence, not independent of it.

Seriously, though, demonic influence? Who talks like that? We don't need demons, as we're selfish enough on our own. Blaming our actions on demons is ludicrous.

Who's blaming the demons?

[Ahab]

46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think I am influenced by demons and usually still love myself.

Everybody should love everybody, even all demons.  

The proper idea is to hate all sin but still love all sinners.

[The Nehor]

39 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Everybody should love everybody, even all demons.  

The proper idea is to hate all sin but still love all sinners.

I just told my personal tempters to go visit you as you actually love them. Hopefully this will work and you can convert them or something.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That isn't what I was told. Rather, said Christian told me that my testimony was a result of demonic influence, not independent of it.

Seriously, though, demonic influence? Who talks like that? We don't need demons, as we're selfish enough on our own. Blaming our actions on demons is ludicrous.

I wouldn't be so quick to downplay demonic influence.
It is very real and very much a part of Mormon doctrine.

However, I do agree, more often than not it is our own spirit enticing us to do evil.

[Ahab]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I just told my personal tempters to go visit you as you actually love them. Hopefully this will work and you can convert them or something.

I haven't converted any yet but it is kinda nice knowing that I am a better person than the all of the bad people that I have around me.  Kinda like Jesus felt when he hung around some sinners, I imagine.

[Tacenda]

48 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I haven't converted any yet but it is kinda nice knowing that I am a better person than the all of the bad people that I have around me.  Kinda like Jesus felt when he hung around some sinners, I imagine.

WHAT? 

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Ahab said:

I haven't converted any yet but it is kinda nice knowing that I am a better person than the all of the bad people that I have around me.  Kinda like Jesus felt when he hung around some sinners, I imagine.

The Zoramites prayer might fit your situation wonderfully. Ever used it?

[thesometimesaint]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I wouldn't be so quick to downplay demonic influence.
It is very real and very much a part of Mormon doctrine.

However, I do agree, more often than not it is our own spirit enticing us to do evil.

Claiming Demons made you do something is as ludicrous as claiming God made you do something. 

[JLHPROF]

49 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Claiming Demons made you do something is as ludicrous as claiming God made you do something. 

Claiming demons made you do something is very different than acknowledging the influence of demons.


Matthew 8:28 ¶And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.

"One case was very distressing. We found the sister possessed of the devil and a burning fever on the brain. She was raging and trying to tear herself, although [being held down by] the hands of three or four men. We laid hands upon her and commanded the devil to depart and the fever to stand rebuked in the name of Jesus Christ, and it was done, though not without a great struggle."  Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 1:408

http://www.moroni10.com/mormon_history/devils-attack-apostles.html
"I then arose and sat up on the bed, when a vision was opened to our minds, and we could distinctly see the evil spirits, who foamed and gnashed their teeth at us. We gazed upon them about an hour and a half (by Willard's watch). We were not looking towards the window, but towards the wall. Space appeared before us, and we saw the devils coming in legions, with their leaders, who came within a few feet of us. They came towards us like armies rushing to battle. They appeared to be men of full stature, possessing every form and feature of men in the flesh, who were angry and desperate; and I shall never forget the vindictive malignity depicted on their countenances as they looked me in the eye; and any attempt to paint the scene which then presented itself or portray their malice and enmity, would be vain." - Heber C. Kimball

"Every circumstance that occurred at that scene of devils is just as fresh in my recollection at this moment as it was at the moment of it’s occurrence, and will ever remain so. After you were overcome by them and had fallen, their awful rush upon me with knives, threats imprecations and hellish grins amply convinced me that they were no friends of mine. While you were apparently senseless and lifeless on the floor and upon the bed (after we had laid you there), I stood between you and the devils and fought them and contended with them face to face, until they began to diminish in number and to retreat from the room. The last imp that left, turned round to me as he was going out and said, as if to apologize, and appease my determined opposition to them, ‘I never said anything against you!’ I replied to him thus: ‘It matters not to me whether you have or have not; you are a liar from the beginning! In the name of Jesus Christ, depart!’ He immediately left, and the room was clear. That closed the scene of devils for that time." - Orson Hyde

[thesometimesaint]

God always votes for you. The Devil always votes against you. You break the tie.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

God always votes for you. The Devil always votes against you. You break the tie.

Thank you Hyrum Andrus - "This means that though God casts His vote for man and the devil casts his vote against him, man is the one who casts the deciding vote. It is man who determines which way he will go." 

He did base that on Joseph's teaching - "There are three independent principles; the Spirit of God, the spirit of man, and the spirit of the devil. All men have power to resist the devil."

Nobody is saying the "devil makes you do it".  But evil spirits and their influences can be felt just as the spirit of God can.