“Religious freedom is indeed under attack,” Elder Christofferson

[hope_for_things]

20 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I was not addressing same sex marriage as being the epitome of a topic where there is bigotry and injustice.  There is bigotry and injustice everywhere and in all nations.  The sacred cow du jour of SSM and all LGBT topics are the least of all of them.  Regardless, it is the the overriding topic and will continue to be so ad nauseaum.  While we whittle away over this sole topic everything else is ignored and nothing else is sacred in relative terms.  

Why are LGBT topics the least important?  Care to share any examples of more important topics that are getting ignored?  I'm hearing a lot of hyperbole in your post.   

[Storm Rider]

On 6/29/2016 at 5:44 PM, hope_for_things said:

Why are LGBT topics the least important?  Care to share any examples of more important topics that are getting ignored?  I'm hearing a lot of hyperbole in your post.   

There have been countless media shows (movies & cinema) for the last 30 years about the LGBT community, characters, etc.  They have hardly not been rammed down the throats of every citizen everywhere.  The world ignores slavery, sexual abuse, fat people, Christian genocide in Muslim countries, genocide as a whole is ignored, starvation, clean water, rain forest habitat destruction, pollution of the seas, over fishing, almost every other topic is ignored as the media consistently, constantly bemoans the poor. weak, lonely LGBT community.  No other group, no other injustice is as important as forcing humanity to accept the gay community as nothing more than two men desperately seeking to love one another.   

Yes, I could use better language that is more politically correct and easier to read (inoffensive), but the entire topic is a colossal bore and I am tired of it being the cause célèbre.  It has taken up all the oxygen in the room for too long.  

Edited June 30, 2016 by Storm Rider

[Gray]

Quote

There are concerted efforts to shame and intimidate believers who have traditional moral values and to suppress religious viewpoints and practices regarding marriage, family, gender and sexuality.

You know, the same amendment that protects religious freedom also protects speech. I fail to see how free speech affects anyone's religious freedoms. There has never been a religious right not to be criticized. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Gray

[Aron]

the most important thing to understand that the sealed portion of the gold plates will not be revealed in the land at a time of iniquity.

American government now enforcing new laws to permit men to enter into girls toilets is the last straw. The new toilet law that Obama has enforced giving no genders in toilets as a sick discrimination equal rights law now gives the permission for  a gender-neutral bathroom is dangerous to little girls who could be bullied by rapists. if only there were more people like Kim Davis she was brave enough not to issue marriage licenses to gays and was arrest and put into jail for doing the Christian right thing. In Panama there is no abortion permited, there are no gays permited to be married and in Panama the Ark of the covenant was discovered with gold plates. Maybe other sheep which are not from the USA will come forth with the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon because of their righteousness amongst the Lamanites in Panama. It is an interesting discovery and it could prove the Book of Mormon is true. You should watch the vidieo at

 

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure if it went there.  But the problem is intimidation and coercion are religious tactics, historically.  "yes I know we used these tricks to get the majority to just go along with us and not let opposers hold to loud of a voice, but if you guys do it to us, well then, that's just plain taking our religious freedoms away". 

I am not convinced the LDS Church has historically done much of that. The Religious Right as a political force is rapidly heading towards irrelevance and good riddance.

[hope_for_things]

11 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

There have been countless media shows (movies & cinema) for the last 30 years about the LGBT community, characters, etc.  They have hardly not been rammed down the throats of every citizen everywhere.  The world ignores slavery, sexual abuse, fat people, Christian genocide in Muslim countries, genocide as a whole is ignored, starvation, clean water, rain forest habitat destruction, pollution of the seas, over fishing, almost every other topic is ignored as the media continues to ignore everything and anyone except gays.  

Yes, I could use better language that is more easy to read, but the entire topic is a colossal bore and I am tired of it being the cause célèbre.  It has taken up all the oxygen in the room for too long.  

Gotcha, I think your critique is fair.  I do think the media tends to obsess over certain issues, but I don't think the LGBT issue is the "least important".  Those other issues get press too, but they are less controversial if you think about it.  Most people would agree that slavery, sexual abuse, genocide, starvation, etc are evil.  One of the reasons the LGBT issue gets the amount of press it does, is because of the controversy and the lack of a strong consensus.  When 90% of the country agrees on LGBT issues the news will move on to other more controversial subjects.  

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

So I'd be interested in seeing the questions asked in that poll, to see how the questions were phrased.

 

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Please reference this survey.  That's pretty interesting.

Pew Survey on attitudes on same-sex marriage by religious affiliation and denominational family 
(Sorry link should say PRRI, not PEW but it won't let me edit it).
as referenced by CNN here - http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/27/living/poll-religion-gay-marriage/

 

Now I'm sure this survey has issues like very survey and will be debated or dismissed.
But if even close to the 27% of the Mormons as this survey indicated favor or strongly favor legal SSM as that number continues to grow in our society it will inevitably impact a Church that is run by common consent.

Edited June 29, 2016 by JLHPROF

[The Nehor]

Just now, Aron said:

the most important thing to understand that the sealed portion of the gold plates will not be revealed in the land at a time of iniquity.

American government now enforcing new laws to permit men to enter into girls toilets is the last straw. The new toilet law that Obama has enforced giving no genders in toilets as a sick discrimination equal rights law now gives the permission for  a gender-neutral bathroom is dangerous to little girls who could be bullied by rapists. if only there were more people like Kim Davis she was brave enough not to issue marriage licenses to gays and was arrest and put into jail for doing the Christian right thing. In Panama there is no abortion permited, there are no gays permited to be married and in Panama the Ark of the covenant was discovered with gold plates. Maybe other sheep which are not from the USA will come forth with the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon because of their righteousness amongst the Lamanites in Panama. It is an interesting discovery and it could prove the Book of Mormon is true. You should watch the vidieo at

 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Pew Survey on attitudes on same-sex marriage by religious affiliation and denominational family 
(Sorry link should say PRRI, not PEW but it won't let me edit it).
as referenced by CNN here - http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/27/living/poll-religion-gay-marriage/

 

Now I'm sure this survey has issues like very survey and will be debated or dismissed.
But if even close to the 27% of the Mormons as this survey indicated favor or strongly favor legal SSM as that number continues to grow in our society it will inevitably impact a Church that is run by common consent.

Common consent doesn't run the Church.  Those with the keys act and the  other members simply show whether they consent or object to what those with the keys have decided to do.

It's not a democracy.

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Now that would not be a bad idea.  Of course, then we are left with what to do with those that want to vote for a person that has not yet met an issue she does not prefer to lie about, dodge, and/or prevaricate.  They are both so odious as to make voting for Richard Nixon a joy and a blessing.  

Yeah, I am voting third party. If I was in a swing state I might vote for Hillary as I trust her more with the nuclear launch codes and think she is less likely to try to arrest the Supreme Court or Congress in a fit of pique. Admittedly a very low bar but it is that kind of an election.

[Aron]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

this is not a laughing matter. we need not mock what we cannot understand. the Ark of the Covenant is discovered and we need to be reverent. You should see this other video of the ark of the covenant being found in Panama at

 

[JLHPROF]

29 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Common consent doesn't run the Church.  Those with the keys act and the  other members simply show whether they consent or object to what those with the keys have decided to do.

It's not a democracy.

No, it's not a democracy.

But here's the thing.  The wards are run by members.  The stakes are run by members.
What happens when we reach a stage where 50% of members believe SSM to be acceptable and let's say even 10% believe the Church should change its practices concerning SSM?

Speculate with me...
What happens when you have a Bishop, or a Relief Society President, or a Stake President who has a homosexual child and who believes the Church should allow that child to marry in the temple?  Nothing right?
What happens when that SP calls counselors who agree, or the Bishop calls Sunday School teachers who agree?

I am not talking about a change in policy from the top.  I am talking about 20 years from now when the majority of temple presidents, seventies, and even an apostle or too finds the policies to be too restrictive.  I am talking about 20 years from now when the estimated 25% of members who think civil SSM is ok has now become 25% of members who think the Church should change.  And they hold local leadership positions all over the world.

To go back to Rockpond's " I am not aware of any LDS practices regarding marriage, family, gender, and sexuality being suppressed. " my point once again is our current practices and beliefs may be suppressed, not through any action, but through a progressive change in membership ideals.

That is why we can go from:

to this -
 

• " In 1923, Salt Lake Temple President George F. Richards, acting as part of a committee to reexamine temple practices, pushed hard for a modernization of the garments, to include “dispensing with the collar, using buttons instead of strings, using the closed crotch and flap, and for the women wearing elbow sleaves [sic] and leg length just below the knee”. The First Presidency eventually approved the changes to the garment; and according to an article in the Salt Lake Tribune, included in Volume 3, the motivation for these changes stemmed largely from the experiences of women. “The younger of the gentler sex complained that to wear the old style with the new finer hosiery gave the limbs a knotty appearance, . . .[and] was embarrassing in view of the generally accepted sanitary shorter skirt.”
  - review – The Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000 International Journal of Mormon Studies, reviewed by Dr. Mauro Properzi

Just one prophetic administration, and the complaints of members led to changes within that would have been unthinkable just a decade earlier.

Edited June 29, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

Worry if you must, but I'm so sure that those with the keys won't ever misuse those keys that I'd bet all of the money I have on it, if I could.

It just don't work that way.

But yeah, they can always use those keys as they are authorized to do so.

[Aron]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, it's not a democracy.

But here's the thing.  The wards are run by members.  The stakes are run by members.
What happens when we reach a stage where 50% of members believe SSM to be acceptable and let's say even 10% believe the Church should change its practices concerning SSM?

Speculate with me...
What happens when you have a Bishop, or a Relief Society President, or a Stake President who has a homosexual child and who believes the Church should allow that child to marry in the temple?  Nothing right?
What happens when that SP calls counselors who agree, or the Bishop calls Sunday School teachers who agree?

I am not talking about a change in policy from the top.  I am talking about 20 years from now when the majority of temple presidents, seventies, and even an apostle or too finds the policies to be too restrictive.  I am talking about 20 years from now when the estimated 25% of members who think civil SSM is ok has now become 25% of members who think the Church should change.  And they hold local leadership positions all over the world.

To go back to Rockpond's " I am not aware of any LDS practices regarding marriage, family, gender, and sexuality being suppressed. " my point once again is our current practices and beliefs may be suppressed, not through any action, but through a progressive change in membership ideals.

That is why we can go from:

to this -
 

• " In 1923, Salt Lake Temple President George F. Richards, acting as part of a committee to reexamine temple practices, pushed hard for a modernization of the garments, to include “dispensing with the collar, using buttons instead of strings, using the closed crotch and flap, and for the women wearing elbow sleaves [sic] and leg length just below the knee”. The First Presidency eventually approved the changes to the garment; and according to an article in the Salt Lake Tribune, included in Volume 3, the motivation for these changes stemmed largely from the experiences of women. “The younger of the gentler sex complained that to wear the old style with the new finer hosiery gave the limbs a knotty appearance, . . .[and] was embarrassing in view of the generally accepted sanitary shorter skirt.”
  - review – The Development of LDS Temple Worship, 1846-2000 International Journal of Mormon Studies, reviewed by Dr. Mauro Properzi

Just one prophetic administration, and the complaints of members led to changes within that would have been unthinkable just a decade earlier.

The changing of the design of the temple garments to modernize is evolution and even if God is the same yesterday, today and forever surely God does not want the Mormon to live like the Armish and stay old fashioned, Mormons have learned how to adapted to the trends and this makes Mormons user friendly I guarantee the world does not want to be baptized as old school like the Armish however there are alot of people attracted to the modernization of the LDS church today people like the trendy Mormons and will get baptized for their modern look. However, the Lamanites in Panama have never changed their traditional dress for over two thousand years they also wear a sacred garment and have temple ceremonies with the Ark of the Covenant that was just discovered in Panam as the video displays

 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Aron said:

The changing of the design of the temple garments to modernize is evolution and even if God is the same yesterday, today and forever surely God does not want the Mormon to live like the Armish and stay old fashioned,

Based on what?  Why does he not?

Quote

Mormons have learned how to adapted to the trends and this makes Mormons user friendly I guarantee the world does not want to be baptized as old school like the Armish however there are alot of people attracted to the modernization of the LDS church today people like the trendy Mormons and will get baptized for their modern look.

God is eternal and so are the ordinances.  Being trendy to attract more converts is the fastest way to apostasy.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Aron said:

this is not a laughing matter. we need not mock what we cannot understand. the Ark of the Covenant is discovered and we need to be reverent. You should see this other video of the ark of the covenant being found in Panama at

 

lol, keep it up!

[TheSkepticChristian]

Edited June 30, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[california boy]

In most states it is legal for a gay couple to get married on Sunday and then fired and kicked out of their housing on Monday simply because they are gay.  Yet someone who is elected to public office whose job it is to issue marriage licenses to anyone who legally qualifies can squeal her religious freedoms are being taken away from her.

When was the last time it was LEGAL for a Christian to be kicked out of their housing because of their religious beliefs???  When was it LEGAL for a Christian to be FIRED from their job because they were Christian?  When was it LEGAL for a Christian to be denied service at a lunch counter?

Christians cry war on their religion because they can't get everyone to say Merry Christmas or they are required to do the job they were elected to do.  Give me a break.

The fastest growing religion is NO religion.  And the Christian churches have no one to blame but themselves.  People can find a more Christ-like life away from religion then they can in organized religion today.  In my opinion, the war on the teachings of Christ are coming more from organized religion than they are from those outside.  The biggest danger to Christianity is itself.  When did it become Christ-like to fire someone because they are gay.  When did it become Christ-like to refuse services to someone because you think they are a sinner.  When did it become Christ-like to refuse housing to someone because you don't approve of who they married.  When someone gives a talk like this, the ones that don't question nod their heads in agreement and the ones that see the injustices and discrimination done in the name of religion LEAVE.  

 

 

A U.S. House committee has scheduled a hearing on July 12 for federal “religious freedom” legislation seen to enable anti-LGBT discrimination,

“In most states, you can get married on Saturday, post photos of your wedding to Facebook on Sunday and then get fired or kicked out of your apartment on Monday just because you’re gay,” Cicilline added. “FADA exacerbates this injustice by allowing religion to be used as a blanket excuse for denying LGBT people access to employment, housing, mental health care, emergency shelters and other essential services. This is wrong. Fairness and equality are core American values.”

[thatjimguy]

I had seen the title and I thought to myself; "Where is this blatant attack at?", at this title assumes there is. As such, there isn't Simply a stretch.

I hate to say it, but it's pretty much a "War on Christmas" theme. Creating a illusion of something that is not truly there and that is guile.

I'm sure it's well intended and the use of it accidental, but it is still the devil's tool, and should be made aware of to be avoided.

[Kenngo1969]

"Nope, nothing to see here, folks!  Move along!"

[ERMD]

18 hours ago, rockpond said:

I don't see it as a war.  And I'm not sure why our church leaders continue to describe it in those terms.  Disagreement is not an attack.  Demands for one's own equality are not a suppression of our freedoms.  The language used by Elder Christofferson contributes to the problem rather than solving it.

In the grand scheme of things, it is a war--a war between good an evil.

[Gray]

Maybe it's a war between Chicken Little and the acorn. 

[rodheadlee]

17 hours ago, Aron said:

the most important thing to understand that the sealed portion of the gold plates will not be revealed in the land at a time of iniquity.

American government now enforcing new laws to permit men to enter into girls toilets is the last straw. The new toilet law that Obama has enforced giving no genders in toilets as a sick discrimination equal rights law now gives the permission for  a gender-neutral bathroom is dangerous to little girls who could be bullied by rapists. if only there were more people like Kim Davis she was brave enough not to issue marriage licenses to gays and was arrest and put into jail for doing the Christian right thing. In Panama there is no abortion permited, there are no gays permited to be married and in Panama the Ark of the covenant was discovered with gold plates. Maybe other sheep which are not from the USA will come forth with the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon because of their righteousness amongst the Lamanites in Panama. It is an interesting discovery and it could prove the Book of Mormon is true. You should watch the vidieo at

 

This very interesting and deserves it's own thread so that the archaeologist here can comment.

[thesometimesaint]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Based on what?  Why does he not?

God is eternal and so are the ordinances.  Being trendy to attract more converts is the fastest way to apostasy.

The design of  the Garments is not an ordinance.

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The design of  the Garments is not an ordinance.

Temple ordinances have undergone many changes as well.