“Religious freedom is indeed under attack,” Elder Christofferson

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The design of  the Garments is not an ordinance.

If they are based on an eternal design alterations to them is no different than altering eternal ordinances.

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

Temple ordinances have undergone many changes as well. 

Again, due to members desires.

My point to the OP is still that "our current practices and beliefs may be suppressed, not through any action, but through a progressive change in membership ideals."
The Church may run top down, but the list of changes in Church history that came about as a result of changes in the thinking of members is a long one.  Agitation doesn't cause the Church to change (sorry Ordain Women) but fundamental changes in the thinking of its membership will cause eventual changes - whether positive or negative.

[thesometimesaint]

The design isn't eternal. The promises they represent are.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, thesometimesaint said:

The design isn't eternal. The promises they represent are.

Joseph F. Smith disagreed with you.

[thesometimesaint]

Which his right. We are not the Pharisee's going around making sure that we don't mix fabrics of differing materials.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, ERMD said:

In the grand scheme of things, it is a war--a war between good an evil.

I am hopeful that this war against evil will be won, and those using religion to justify discriminate and bigotry against LGBT citizens will end.  I see a day when it will be illegal to fired someone from their job just for being gay.  I see a day when it will be illegal to discriminated against gays in housing  I see a day where a gay person will get a marriage license by elected officials whose duty to do so is required by law.  I see a day when a person will be served at a lunch counter even though they are gay.  I see a day when Christians realize that it is Christ like to serve others even those they consider sinners.  

“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”  - Martin Luther King

[ERMD]

19 hours ago, Aron said:

the most important thing to understand that the sealed portion of the gold plates will not be revealed in the land at a time of iniquity.

American government now enforcing new laws to permit men to enter into girls toilets is the last straw. The new toilet law that Obama has enforced giving no genders in toilets as a sick discrimination equal rights law now gives the permission for  a gender-neutral bathroom is dangerous to little girls who could be bullied by rapists. if only there were more people like Kim Davis she was brave enough not to issue marriage licenses to gays and was arrest and put into jail for doing the Christian right thing. In Panama there is no abortion permited, there are no gays permited to be married and in Panama the Ark of the covenant was discovered with gold plates. Maybe other sheep which are not from the USA will come forth with the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon because of their righteousness amongst the Lamanites in Panama. It is an interesting discovery and it could prove the Book of Mormon is true. You should watch the vidieo at

 

This is hilarious!

[ERMD]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am hopeful that this war against evil will be won, and those using religion to justify discriminate and bigotry against LGBT citizens will end.  I see a day when it will be illegal to fired someone from their job just for being gay.  I see a day when it will be illegal to discriminated against gays in housing  I see a day where a gay person will get a marriage license by elected officials whose duty to do so is required by law.  I see a day when a person will be served at a lunch counter even though they are gay.  I see a day when Christians realize that it is Christ like to serve others even those they consider sinners.  

“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”  - Martin Luther King

There should be no bigotry or unjustifiable discrimination (every person and organization discriminates), just as there should not be bigotry or unjustifiable discrimination against those who commit adultery or any other sin.

That however, does not mean that homosexuality or SSM are not sins in the eyes of God.

[CV75]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

my point once again is our current practices and beliefs may be suppressed, not through any action, but through a progressive change in membership ideals.

These examples are not examples of suppressing religious freedom, nor are they examples of suppressing God's will for His people.

http://signaturebooks.com/review-the-development-of-lds-temple-worship-1846-2000/

Referring to changes in the garment and prayer circle, “… much [has been] invested in maintaining these rituals, in keeping them relevant, in ensuring that their essential elements did not wash into the sea of anachronism as the culture changed around them.”

Authorized liberalization of the ritual according to culture does not change the eternal principles it symbolizes in its design to honor and remember, and does not change its spiritual applications. Joseph Smith did it too (D&C 27:2; 124:31-33), and even in the same breath (D&C 88:135). Priesthood keys, whether exercised in an ancient Mesopotamian patriarchal order or an American corporate structure as we do today, consistently commute actual spiritual power, as do the authorized rituals associated with them.

Edited June 30, 2016 by CV75

[california boy]

19 minutes ago, ERMD said:

There should be no bigotry or unjustifiable discrimination (every person and organization discriminates), just as there should not be bigotry or unjustifiable discrimination against those who commit adultery or any other sin.

That however, does not mean that homosexuality or SSM are not sins in the eyes of God.

I absolutely agree.  I have no problem with the church viewing SSM as a sin.  I have a huge problem with the church fighting to take away any citizens civil rights.  It is a shame that the church continues to do this and I hope they continue to be scorned by the public for doing so.  If the church wants to change their reputation for discrimination against gays, they are going to have to start by stopping the push to take away the civil rights of gay people.  While they have every right to be involved in the political process, they also deserve the pushback from those that believe in the civil rights for all citizens, even those in Mexico.

[CV75]

On 6/29/2016 at 1:51 PM, rockpond said:

But I am not aware of any LDS practices regarding marriage, family, gender, and sexuality being suppressed.

It happens anywhere the Church is not permitted to proselytize its practices or beliefs or build chapels and temples to perform the rituals.

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

These examples are not examples of suppressing religious freedom, nor are they examples of suppressing God's will for His people.

http://signaturebooks.com/review-the-development-of-lds-temple-worship-1846-2000/

Referring to changes in the garment and prayer circle, “… much [has been] invested in maintaining these rituals, in keeping them relevant, in ensuring that their essential elements did not wash into the sea of anachronism as the culture changed around them.”

Authorized liberalization of the ritual according to culture does not change the eternal principles it symbolizes in its design to honor and remember, and does not change its spiritual applications. Joseph Smith did it too (D&C 27:2; 124:31-33), and even in the same breath (D&C 88:135). Priesthood keys, whether exercised in an ancient Mesopotamian patriarchal order or an American corporate structure as we do today, consistently commute actual spiritual power, as do the authorized rituals associated with them.

I agree with you, but historically that has been a counter narrative in church that says ordinances may not be changed, and doing so is a sign of apostasy. I don't agree with that narrative. We evolve or we die. 

[CV75]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

I absolutely agree.  I have no problem with the church viewing SSM as a sin.  I have a huge problem with the church fighting to take away any citizens civil rights.  It is a shame that the church continues to do this and I hope they continue to be scorned by the public for doing so.  If the church wants to change their reputation for discrimination against gays, they are going to have to start by stopping the push to take away the civil rights of gay people.  While they have every right to be involved in the political process, they also deserve the pushback from those that believe in the civil rights for all citizens, even those in Mexico.

As always, the balance between civil rights and religious freedom requires level-headed dialogue in the public square. Histrionically conflating "discrimination against a right" with "prophylaxis for protecting freedom" is not a very valid basis for "pushback."

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

I agree with you, but historically that has been a counter narrative in church that says ordinances may not be changed, and doing so is a sign of apostasy. I don't agree with that narrative. We evolve or we die. 

LDS baptism, for example hasn't had a cultural basis for authorized modification. Some cultures perform them in chapel fonts, some in natural bodies of water, and some anywhere they can gather enough water. The operative word for apostasy is "unauthorized." As explained, authorized changes may be made in the ordinances, and these have nothing to do with suppressing religious freedom or God's will.

[ERMD]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

I absolutely agree.  I have no problem with the church viewing SSM as a sin.  I have a huge problem with the church fighting to take away any citizens civil rights.  It is a shame that the church continues to do this and I hope they continue to be scorned by the public for doing so.  If the church wants to change their reputation for discrimination against gays, they are going to have to start by stopping the push to take away the civil rights of gay people.  While they have every right to be involved in the political process, they also deserve the pushback from those that believe in the civil rights for all citizens, even those in Mexico.

Which civil rights are the Church continuing to fight to take away?

[Aron]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Based on what?  Why does he not?

God is eternal and so are the ordinances.  Being trendy to attract more converts is the fastest way to apostasy.

who says apostasy will happen? The prophets are divinely inspired of God so if they change anything it is by revelation. I think if they feel inspired to make the LDS church to be more accepted that cannot be a bad thing. I mean lets face it they can´t be dressed like Brigham Young or an Amish Quaker with old fashioned clothing, the church has to keep up with the modern times this is why the church leaders reduced the size of the temple garments to conform with the modern world trends in clothing. Surely that cannot be apostasy??? As for changing ordinances I do not believe the ordinances of the temple are changed instead they were modified to make the time of a temple endownment reduced to make more work for the dead. I mean lets face it you can only do the work for the dead one person at a time so if you did the old temple ceremony in 1848 it will take all day to be done,

but now the LDS can do the work for the dead a few times a day because the ordinances were reduced to make more people go through the temple ceremonies quicker.

I believe the original temple endowment ceremony was 7 hours so now it is reduced down to 45 minutes.

I congratulate the Brethren for making it quicker and easier to bring more people through the temple in a reduced time period.

This does not mean the church is in apostasy for moving ahead to modernization it just means a smarter move into our modernization. We are smarter and quicker today because of computers so of course we need to modernize the temple ceremonies to adopt to the technolgy. That can´t be a bad thing now can it???

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Aron said:

We are smarter and quicker today because of computers so of course we need to modernize the temple ceremonies to adopt to the technolgy. That can´t be a bad thing now can it???

As long as the changes are authorized through the keys, then no, I don't think it would be a bad thing.

President Hinckley had life experience with radios and he deserves some credit for our acceptance and use of a lot of communications technology.  He had the keys and he used the keys to do that.

I like to think that I played a part in bringing CC (closed captioning) televisions into endowment sessions, asking for it to be used in endowment sessions when my wife (and I) attended.   They used to wheel the big box televisions in on carts until they got flat screen televisions, which they then installed with remote controlled drop-down mounts.

 

[Aron]

42 minutes ago, ERMD said:

Which civil rights are the Church continuing to fight to take away?

The first treaty concluded between the United States and Tripolitania was submitted to the Senate by the US President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797. The treaty was a routine diplomatic agreement. It has attracted attention in recent decades because of a clause stating that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." I do not understand what all the fuss is about the USA Government was never a Christian government.

For example in your US Constitution: Amendment I freedom of religion

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

However, when the US forced the creation of a State of Israel 1948 it was made officially illegal for any Jew to practice their religion.

In the United States religious slaughter is not practiced under any exemption. Instead the Humane Slaughter Act defines religious slaughter by Jews and Muslims of killing animals for food and the animals must be stunned before the killing. The kosher food industry has challenged regulations as an infringement on religious freedom.

Secular governments also have sought to restrict ritual slaughter not intended for food consumption this law includes; ritual animal sacrifice, shechitah, or Jewish ritual slaughter.

 

 

[Aron]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

As long as the changes are authorized through the keys, then no, I don't think it would be a bad thing.

President Hinckley had life experience with radios and he deserves some credit for our acceptance and use of a lot of communications technology.  He had the keys and he used the keys to do that.

I like to think that I played a part in bringing CC (closed captioning) televisions into endowment sessions, asking for it to be used in endowment sessions when my wife (and I) attended.   They used to wheel the big box televisions in on carts until they got flat screen televisions, which they then installed with remote controlled drop-down mounts.

 

and the Mormon famous inventor of the TV his name  Philo Taylor Farnsworth was an American inventor and television pioneer from Utah Salt Lake City. A marvelous work and wonder in science and technolgy. I remember in Priesthood the question was asked why we do not see mighty miracles like Moses departing the red sea and the Quorum leader said its because science and technolgy look at the Nuclear bombs and NASA rocket to the Moon. Jake Garn is a Mormon and an astronaunt so God changed miracles for modernization of technolgy. We do not heal cancer with the power like in the ancient church we use Doctors like Apostle Russel M. Nelson to replace a man´s heart with a mechanical heart his name was Barney Clark (a Mormon) who made world history with the first artifical heart Jarvik 7 Utah hospital

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, Aron said:

who says apostasy will happen? The prophets are divinely inspired of God so if they change anything it is by revelation. I think if they feel inspired to make the LDS church to be more accepted that cannot be a bad thing. I mean lets face it they can´t be dressed like Brigham Young or an Amish Quaker with old fashioned clothing, the church has to keep up with the modern times this is why the church leaders reduced the size of the temple garments to conform with the modern world trends in clothing. Surely that cannot be apostasy??? As for changing ordinances I do not believe the ordinances of the temple are changed instead they were modified to make the time of a temple endownment reduced to make more work for the dead. I mean lets face it you can only do the work for the dead one person at a time so if you did the old temple ceremony in 1848 it will take all day to be done,

but now the LDS can do the work for the dead a few times a day because the ordinances were reduced to make more people go through the temple ceremonies quicker.

I believe the original temple endowment ceremony was 7 hours so now it is reduced down to 45 minutes.

I congratulate the Brethren for making it quicker and easier to bring more people through the temple in a reduced time period.

This does not mean the church is in apostasy for moving ahead to modernization it just means a smarter move into our modernization. We are smarter and quicker today because of computers so of course we need to modernize the temple ceremonies to adopt to the technolgy. That can´t be a bad thing now can it???

"who says apostasy will happen? "
Many prophets both ancient and modern, but you can start with Isaiah.

"I congratulate the Brethren for making it quicker and easier to bring more people through the temple in a reduced time period." 
Up next, baptism by sprinkling.  Much easier.

Edited June 30, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Aron]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

"who says apostasy will happen? "
Many prophets both ancient and modern, but you can start with Isaiah.

"I congratulate the Brethren for making it quicker and easier to bring more people through the temple in a reduced time period." 
Up next, baptism by sprinkling.  Much easier.

If it is God´s will why not? sprinkling is mentioned in Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations.... I think we miss the point the full immersion of the original Temple endowment was only done because they had more time in those days in 1848 but today we are very busy with our lives we have credit cards, bills to pay our lifestyle is different than in the days of Brigham Young so of course it would not be good to spend hours with full emmersion initiatory washings and anointings sessions. In fact I think the tubs that were used in Salt Lake temple for the old endowment session were removed. According to this link at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_and_anointing

Now the sprinkle of water and oil for the washings and anointings is much more quicker and easier, not to mention user friendly, I mean lets face it for PR purposes if we want to convert protestants we need a much more subtle approach to temple initiatories and Gordon B. Hinckley was working for public relations in the LDS church most of his life so he knew exactly how it was intimedating for new members to experience getting naked in an old tub and having oil and water poured all over the body too messy and inconvenient.

These ordiance changes are not apostasy changes they are modernization changes to become more acceptable to the world. If Gordon B. Hinckley did not make those changes more people would have left the church. I think it was a very smart move not an apostate move but more a logical move to modify the ordinances in the temple to stregthen the weaker Saints that felt unconfortable with exposing their nakedness and be subjected to a full emersion initiatory wahsings and anointing season.

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, Aron said:

If it is God´s will why not? sprinkling is mentioned in Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations.... I think we miss the point the full immersion of the original Temple endowment was only done because they had more time in those days in 1848 but today we are very busy with our lives we have credit cards, bills to pay our lifestyle is different than in the days of Brigham Young so of course it would not be good to spend hours with full emmersion initiatory washings and anointings sessions. In fact I think the tubs that were used in Salt Lake temple for the old endowment session were removed. According to this link at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_and_anointing

Now the sprinkle of water and oil for the washings and anointings is much more quicker and easier, not to mention user friendly, I mean lets face it for PR purposes if we want to convert protestants we need a much more subtle approach to temple initiatories and Gordon B. Hinckley was working for public relations in the LDS church most of his life so he knew exactly how it was intimedating for new members to experience getting naked in an old tub and having oil and water poured all over the body too messy and inconvenient.

These ordiance changes are not apostasy changes they are modernization changes to become more acceptable to the world. If Gordon B. Hinckley did not make those changes more people would have left the church. I think it was a very smart move not an apostate move but more a logical move to modify the ordinances in the temple to stregthen the weaker Saints that felt unconfortable with exposing their nakedness and be subjected to a full emersion initiatory wahsings and anointing season.

Isaiah 24: 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Joseph Smith -  "Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed."
Joseph Smith - "Where there is no change in priesthood, there is no change in ordinance."  (and so vice versa)

From LDS.org -
"When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth."

But of course, all the changes made since the days of Joseph and Brigham were "authorized" right? 

[Gray]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Joseph Smith -  "Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed."
Joseph Smith - "Where there is no change in priesthood, there is no change in ordinance."  (and so vice versa)
 

Thanks for these quotes - very helpful in illustrating this important thread within Mormonism

[Ahab]

16 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But of course, all the changes made since the days of Joseph and Brigham were "authorized" right? 

Right.

[Gray]

Actually, I can think of one potential threat to religious freedom in the US, in the form of Donald Trump's threats towards Muslims. But if he became president (heaven forbid), any anti-Islamic measures he tried to take would never withstand judicial scrutiny. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Gray

[california boy]

2 hours ago, ERMD said:

Which civil rights are the Church continuing to fight to take away?

Not satisfied in working to take away the civil rights of Americans, sadly, the church is now embarking on taking away the civil rights of Mexicans.  The church is not satisfied with just calling gay marriage a sin, they also want to decide who is allowed to marry civil and who is not.  Of course they have every right to be involved in the political process, but that doesn't mean it is right for the church to be working to take away anyone's civil rights, even in Mexico.

Mormon Church Finds a New Target for Its Homophobia