BYU now a target for LGBT groups

[Tacenda]

I think that the money will hold out in the end. Whatever gives out the most money to the schools will probably be the winner. Also, this article was poorly written. 

[Jeanne]

BYU certainly has its right as a religious owned and operated school.  My question is, if they discriminate in any way to LGBT;s in policy because of doctrine, why would they want to compete with schools who are open to all participation? 

[Johnnie Cake]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think that the money will hold out in the end. Whatever gives out the most money to the schools will probably be the winner. Also, this article was poorly written. 

I think many things can be overlooked when money is involved...however discrimination may be the exception because it comes with a societal cost that transcends immediate loss of money...the long term loss of money.  Society will no longer accept the discrimination of any class of individual without exacting a price and consequence...BYU is experiencing that right now.  I have no doubt that the Y will hold to their standards...as they should...but it will lead to the disintegration of their athletic program in the long run...they will more than likely just abandon sports in time

Edited August 9, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[stemelbow]

19 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Agreed...fair is fair, however...according to a USA today article Baylor has changed its policy

 

Well, sure.  I had a feeling Baylor might be, at the least, pretty relaxed about how the policy is implemented.  These schools are huge.  There's no way they don't run into the issue.  I haven't followed Baylor at all or what's going on there, but I'd imagine if they treated the issue like BYU they'd have many out cries. 

[Tacenda]

"BYU's honor code has because a public issue for the school's pursuit of Big 12 membership."

The very first line is "because and not become". Where is Scott when you need him? But, I guess that doesn't make the rest of the article bad, sorry I lumped it altogether. 

 

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

BYU certainly has its right as a religious owned and operated school.  My question is, if they discriminate in any way to LGBT;s in policy because of doctrine, why would they want to compete with schools who are open to all participation? 

There are no other schools to compete with.  Granted there may be exceptions like Baylor but the only other schools that might be as strict as BYU on these issues are small, may not carry sports programs, and would not be able to complete at the highest level of college football and other sports.  If BYU continues as it is, and continues with sports, the sports programs will probably become less impactful.  Football is one thing but in other sports BYU is top notch--think volleyball for instance. 

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I think many things can be overlooked when money is involved...however discrimination may be the exception because it comes with a societal cost that transcends immediate loss of money...the long term loss of money.  Society will no longer accept the discrimination of any class of individual without exacting a price and consequence...BYU is experiencing that right now.  I have no doubt that the Y will hold to their standards...as they should...but it will lead to the disintegration of the athletic program in the long run...they will more than likely just abandon sports in time

Or abandon the recent policy. There is a rumor going around that this might be the case.

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

There are no other schools to compete with.  Granted there may be exceptions like Baylor but the only other schools that might be as strict as BYU on these issues are small, may not carry sports programs, and would not be able to complete at the highest level of college football and other sports.  If BYU continues as it is, and continues with sports, the sports programs will probably become less impactful.  Football is one thing but in other sports BYU is top notch--think volleyball for instance. 

Okay.  I understand it a little better now.  Thanks!

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Or abandon the recent policy. There is a rumor going around that this might be the case.

I have heard this too.  I am hopefully waiting to see this happen.

[stemelbow]

This is interesting because BYU football is pretty big.  I mean there's a big following around the country.  BYu has a deal with ESPN.  We're talking millions of dollars annually.  it's not tiny stuff.  This could be the death knell to the program, which some may say it's been on the way down anyway.  But I think the football program has been kept for precisely the reason of it being big.  No sport attracts the attention of football, neither the draw nor money.  I think the Church sees the program as an indirect missionary tool.  The only way half the country knows anything about the Church is BYU's football and to lesser extent basketball programs.  This may be the start of something very interesting.  I think in time the Church will figure out a better stance on LGBTQ but for the coming years, it won't give up what the letter calls its "homophobic, biphobic, and transphobic policies and practices". 

[hope_for_things]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Or abandon the recent policy. There is a rumor going around that this might be the case.

I soooooo hope you are right!!  I'm a huge BYU football fan, season ticket holder and I want them to get into the B12 so badly.  But I also am glad that the LGBT groups are calling BYU out for discriminatory practices.  I hope this helps the school to make needed changes on this issue.  

Its all happening so fast, and I worry that the conservative elements in the institution will resist change on these things, but I also wonder about the backlash that church leaders have undoubtedly been wrestling with over the November policy fiasco, as well as the sexual assault and title 9 issues in the last few months.  

I'm hoping that reason and love will prevail and we'll see some changes in the church and at BYU that will be meaningful, and I also hope they make the B12!!  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Now I get it. This explains why I am only gay when I go to a party on Friday night and someone spikes the punch with gayness. If it wasn't for that, I would be perfectly straight.  

Where can one purchase this gayness additive? Asking for a friend.

[Gray]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Where can one purchase this gayness additive? Asking for a friend.

[thatjimguy]

Yeah the title of this post suggest something different than the article suggests.

If we can say "you can't join our club" and we do so under rights of being a private institution, we have zero right to complain about other organizations doing the same to us.

Also, if we call that persecution, wouldn't it be logical to agree by that position, that we persecute the LBGT's by ousting them?

I say just roll with it.

[Sky]

BYU spokesperson Carri Jenkins said, "BYU welcomes as full members of the university community all whose conduct meets university standards. We are very clear and open about our honor code, which all students understand and commit to when they apply for admission. One's stated sexual orientation is not an issue."

See: http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/17251009/big-12-urged-lgbt-advocacy-groups-not-admit-byu-expansion-school

So, essentially the "you can be gay but you just can't act gay" position of BYU may not be tenable in the long-term.  

 

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Sky

[USU78]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

I don't care about football, but wouldn't it would be a pretty scandal if a big 12 school didn't allow black students to attend? What's the difference between that and BYU's policy?

Being black doesn't make anybody act one way or another.  Homosexuality, to the extent it is relevant, is about behavior and behavior only.

[Sky]

Daniel Peterson raised some questions and concerns on his blog that I think are worth looking into:

Quote

Should any school engage athletically with Brigham Young University?  Under any circumstances?  Should BYU enjoy academic accreditation?  Should companies hire believing Latter-day Saints?  Should decent people have anything whatever to do with Mormons?  And, come to think about it, what about all those other religious types out there — the Orthodox Jews and Muslims and Evangelicals and conservative Catholics and such like — who may harbor reservations, however slight, regarding such subjects as same-sex marriage?

 

The logic for total exclusion from decent society of anybody tainted by the foul stench of Mormonism (or, for that matter, of traditional Christian sexual morality) seems pretty compelling, once the first premisses are granted.

see: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2016/08/lgbt-groups-admitting-byu-would-be-inconsistent-with-big-12-values.html

Edited August 9, 2016 by Sky

[Sky]

4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Being black doesn't make anybody act one way or another.  Homosexuality, to the extent it is relevant, is about behavior and behavior only.

It's more than just behavior - it's about an unchosen sexual orientation that some people have…which leads to the behavior.  

[Sky]

Even the Church now acknowledges that people don't choose to be attracted to those of the same sex.  

[USU78]

1 minute ago, Sky said:

It's more than just behavior - it's about an unchosen sexual orientation that some people have…which leads to the behavior.  

It is the behavior that is relevant, whatever its cause. 

[california boy]

28 minutes ago, Sky said:

BYU spokesperson Carri Jenkins said, "BYU welcomes as full members of the university community all whose conduct meets university standards. We are very clear and open about our honor code, which all students understand and commit to when they apply for admission. One's stated sexual orientation is not an issue."

See: http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/17251009/big-12-urged-lgbt-advocacy-groups-not-admit-byu-expansion-school

So, essentially the "you can be gay but you just can't act gay" position of BYU may not be tenable in the long-term.  

 

 

What she failed to mention as has been pointed out is that the honor code discriminates.  And that is the issue. BYU dhas one set of rules for gays and a different set of rules for everyone else. 

[hope_for_things]

32 minutes ago, Sky said:

BYU spokesperson Carri Jenkins said, "BYU welcomes as full members of the university community all whose conduct meets university standards. We are very clear and open about our honor code, which all students understand and commit to when they apply for admission. One's stated sexual orientation is not an issue."

See: http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/17251009/big-12-urged-lgbt-advocacy-groups-not-admit-byu-expansion-school

So, essentially the "you can be gay but you just can't act gay" position of BYU may not be tenable in the long-term.  

Its not tenable now, hence the current controversy.  

[hope_for_things]

22 minutes ago, USU78 said:

It is the behavior that is relevant, whatever its cause. 

The problem with this as an underlying assumption that holding hands and kissing between members of the same sex, is immoral behavior, since these behaviors are a violation of the honor code.  There is also an assumption that church leaders are directed by God and that God has endorsed the honor code as currently constituted.  Both assumptions have serious flaws.  

[Storm Rider]

I am a fair-weather sports fan so my opinion may not be worth much.  Regardless, if BYU is not a candidate for the Big 12 for whatever reason - hurt feelings of poor, sensitive LGBTQ individuals - then I favor shutting down sports program in total and focus just on academics.  I know this would upset a lot of sports fans, but I get tired of giving other groups opportunities to whine and NOBODY whines better, more loudly than LGBTQ groups.  Just take the target away and let them whine about Mrs Brown who lives down the block that did not buy gay cookies, or the infant who cried when someone mentioned being gay, or the fact that not every show on television has a lovable, joy-filled gay character.  That's my soapbox for today.  

[Daniel2]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

I don't care about football, but wouldn't it would be a pretty scandal if a big 12 school didn't allow black students to attend? What's the difference between that and BYU's policy?

Agreed, Gray.

In fact, the actions described in the OP are EXACTLY the route that we have been anticipating (and predicting) would eventually happen in our discussions here for the last several years.  It's long been predicted that social pressure for LGBT equality would continue to mirror the exact same pressure that was exerted on schools and sports programs in favor of the racial equality of the civil rights movement.  So, surely, this shouldn't come as a surprise or shock to anyone.