New HBO News Segment focuses on LGBT issues, touches on Monson, Priesthood

[Calm]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

No you weren't.  But both you and Kiwi seemed to indicate that marriage was only advised after a "cure" took place.  There are way too many examples where the gay person was told to marry when no cure had taken place. Nor does it state anywhere that marriage should ONLY take place after the person is "cured" from being gay.  What is certain is that the direction at best is very unclear what the Bretheren were counseling gay men to do.  Not really surprising that church leaders were. going around telling gay men to marry and they would become straight is it?

My position is the official written material presented so far does not use marriage as part of a cure.  There might be something out there yet to be found.  Would not be surprised.

I have no doubt such was suggested by many local leaders.  The idea imo was present in the greater culture when I was in high school in the 70s, so at the bare minimum I assume some leaders taught it because they picked it up there.  There was also a general pop psych trend at the time (numerous posters ar school, gym, etc.) about living as the person you want to be.

 I also believe the belief was passed around among members, whatever the source.

I think there is a big possibility that the advice was shared by SL leaders prior to the time written materials were thought to be needed.  In fact, itmakes sense to me written materials were created to correct perceived error and standardize approaches asmuch as possible.  Why write procedures up when people were doing just fine without them...problems produce official policies, imo.

 If so, that means a officialsource is unlikely to be found.  And I doubt given the distaste for the subject many had in and out of the Church explicit public talks were given very often, so that source of documentation probably doesn't exist.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Calm

[ALarson]

kiwi, doing a search within the later pamphlet you insist is a source (I gave the link above),  using the words "marry", "married", and "marrying" and the results were "0" for each.  There was one result for the word "marriage" (quote given below, but with no mention of a cure needing to happen before marriage).

So if you have a quote stating that a member needs to be cured prior to contemplating marrying the opposite sex from this pamphlet, can you post the quote?

Then I did a search using the word "date" and 1 result came up (under "Questions to Use in Counseling"):

Here's the quote:

Quote

4. Social skills Those who feel inadequate, have few if any friends, have dated little or not at all, and are generally lacking in social skills (communication, manners, etc.) will find it difficult to overcome homosexual behavior until their social skills and behaviors are developed more fully. a) Has he had, or is he now having any regular appropriate social contact with members of the opposite sex? Does he enjoy this association? b) Does he feel comfortable when associating with the opposite sex? c) How well does he communicate with the opposite sex? Participate in appropriate activities with them? With the same sex? d) Does he prefer to be alone or with others?

Using the word "dating", there were 3 result:
 

Quote

 

(under "Social Goals")

b) Encourage him (if single) to begin dating and gradually increase its frequency. He might discuss dating practices, expectations and fears with a member of the opposite sex or with those assisting him

 

Quote

Many written testimonies have been gathered from individuals who have overcome homosexual problems and found peace and success in dating, marriage, and Church activity.

So unless you have something else, there's no instructions given stating that leaders should make sure the person is "cured" of being gay prior to advising them to date and marry.

(Nothing supporting your two statements that references were asked for:

Which plainly, clearly, unambiguously and unequivocally talks about marriage as a goal to be pursued after a cure has been found."

And:

"Dating is suggested after the person feels that he is free of his temptations and not before." )

I'd call that a fail on supplying any quotes supporting your claims.

If you do have more, please post the quotes and links.  Otherwise, I'm done and moving on.....

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by ALarson

[JulieM]

7 hours ago, ALarson said:

kiwi, doing a search within the later pamphlet you insist is a source (I gave the link above),  using the words "marry", "married", and "marrying" and the results were "0" for each.  There was one result for the word "marriage" (quote given below, but with no mention of a cure needing to happen before marriage).

So if you have a quote stating that a member needs to be cured prior to contemplating marrying the opposite sex from this pamphlet, can you post the quote?

Then I did a search using the word "date" and 1 result came up (under "Questions to Use in Counseling"):

Here's the quote:

Using the word "dating", there were 3 result:
 

So unless you have something else, there's no instructions given stating that leaders should make sure the person is "cured" of being gay prior to advising them to date and marry.

(Nothing supporting your two statements that references were asked for:

Which plainly, clearly, unambiguously and unequivocally talks about marriage as a goal to be pursued after a cure has been found."

And:

"Dating is suggested after the person feels that he is free of his temptations and not before." )

I'd call that a fail on supplying any quotes supporting your claims.

If you do have more, please post the quotes and links.  Otherwise, I'm done and moving on.....

 

Thanks for posting all of that, Alarson.  I hadn’t looked into what this other pamphlet covered and that’s interesting to know.

Apparently kiwi can dodge responding to a CFR. I doubt he has anything though or he would have posted it.  

I want to thank Calm too as she was very helpful.

I’m moving on too (and thanks again)!

[Calm]

"But once again, it’s very generous of you to step in and attempt to do that for kiwi."

klindley got me curious as to what I might find..  I also decided I wanted to fill in as many gaps in the conversation as I could so everyone could stop wasting time with  the back and forth.

I had always assumed it was initially standard practice to tell gays to marry if only for their duty to raise children (at least before 1950 and likely 1960...wasn't aware of the social conversation the so I was just guessing before I started reading the literature, though I never paid attention to dating until this discussion, started hearing stuff early 70s when I got to high school and then being less than an hour outside of San Fran, there  was tons of it outside of church, though never heard it discussed among church members I can recall until College).  I was glad to see the definite rejection of marriage as a cure early as it was.

I thought the comparison of the 2 1981 booklets interesting, one for church leaders, one for LDS mental health professionals (perhaps they had to agree to follow its suggestions in order to be approved for bishop referrals, certainly didn't stop them from going their own way on the subject from what I heard reported by my sister when she and her husband were referred).  The mental health was much more careful in its word choices, imo.  I suspect they were not produced by the same people even if upper management cleared them both...probably went through correlation).  Neither were earthshaking, what I remembered from my psych classes.