Could the Church "Do" Christmas Better?

[consiglieri]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

No, not at all.  It's an old controversy, in which pagan celebrations were subsumed by the triumphant Christian Church (the Saturnalia, the Yuletide, Easter, etc.).  The Puritans famously banned Christmas.

And shut down the theatres.

Stupid Puritans.

Edited December 24, 2015 by consiglieri

[Zakuska]

 

27 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

And shut down the theatres.

Stupid Puritans.

You do know why they shut down the theaters don't you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLnl5ZWG4tg

They were trying to take the Krampus out of Christmas!

https://twitter.com/KrampusMovie?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krampus

http://mentalfloss.com/article/54184/8-legendary-monsters-christmas

Maybe there's a seed of truth to this movie after all?!

Edited December 24, 2015 by Zakuska

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It has a long tradition in our ward, and attendance is, of course, optional. Our current bishop (called earlier this year), is not a fan personally, and I've never seen him attend in the past, but when it was raised in ward council a month ago, he gladly endorsed the holding of it and accepted my offer to be in charge (including presiding). It has been announced in ward meetings all month. It's an important event each year for a number of families in the ward, and of course for a number of us singles. I've become a big fan myself. It's good to be with ward family on such a day. We intentionally keep things short so that those who want to can head other places, but about half of the attendees usually spend a good hour or so afterward just chatting, letting the kids play in the courtyard, etc. In addition, we often get walk-ins from off the street. I hope that happens this year!

Interesting!

You presiding?  That means he probably will not be there. 

Good solution on his part, let those who want to attend do so.

[The Nehor]

I feel our program last Sunday had an overemphasis on Christ. Not a single mention of Smithmas.

Edited December 24, 2015 by The Nehor

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I feel our progra, last Sunday had an overemphasis in Christ. Not a single mention of Smithmas.

Have a Super Saturnalia!

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Zakuska said:

Who are you and what have you done to the poster "Scott Lloyd"! 

I never thought I'd see the day when Scott would ever say anything disparaging about a church Leader.

I've been reading message boards too long to think local leaders never do dumb things -- like the guys in Boston who, on their own initiative, tried to shorten the meeting block in glaring contravention of the handbook. Or the bishopric that gave a fifth-Sunday lesson over to drumming up support for the Friends of Scouting drive and even opened with a flag ceremony. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It has a long tradition in our ward, and attendance is, of course, optional. Our current bishop (called earlier this year), is not a fan personally, and I've never seen him attend in the past, but when it was raised in ward council a month ago, he gladly endorsed the holding of it and accepted my offer to be in charge (including presiding). It has been announced in ward meetings all month. It's an important event each year for a number of families in the ward, and of course for a number of us singles. I've become a big fan myself. It's good to be with ward family on such a day. We intentionally keep things short so that those who want to can head other places, but about half of the attendees usually spend a good hour or so afterward just chatting, letting the kids play in the courtyard, etc. In addition, we often get walk-ins from off the street. I hope that happens this year!

Sounds nice. 

I suppose if attendance is optional -- and everybody knows that -- I'm ok with it. 

I would worry about introducing yet more structure where most people are already overbooked as it is. 

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I feel our program last Sunday had an overemphasis on Christ. Not a single mention of Smithmas.

I agree.  We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ.  Every week.  Just once a year on his birthday can't we talk of Joseph Smith?

[why me]

13 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 

 

Thankfully we didn't have a repeat of years past when Joseph Smith was the center of the Sunday before Christmas because it fell on his birthday, but I think we can do better. Most of the things I listed are specific to my ward but I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a Christmas eve or Christmas day service to put the "mass" in Christmas. Tonight I'm taking my family to a Baptist service for some good Christmas music and a message. It's a shame I can't get that need filled at church.

Could we do better?

I hope you all have a wonderful and Merry Christmas!

 

I think that the problem is in your tittle. For some reason, when a member has a problem in the ward, it suddenly becomes a church problem. I think that it is more of a ward problem, at least in your case. Why generalize a world wide church with your ward? I think that many wards have a Christmas celebration complete with music. It is up to the music director, the bishop etc but mainly with the person who chooses the music. Also, it is a world wide church. Is there any instructions as to when Christmas should be sung? One week before Christmas, two weeks before Christmas etc? I don't think so but I could be wrong.

I guess I am wondering why you titled your OP 'could the church do better' as if the problem is in salt lake and not in your home ward.

[why me]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've been reading message boards too long to think local leaders never do dumb things -- like the guys in Boston who, on their own initiative, tried to shorten the meeting block in glaring contravention of the handbook. Or the bishopric that gave a fifth-Sunday lesson over to drumming up support for the Friends of Scouting drive and even opened with a flag ceremony. 

This is the point. And yet, I don't know why people generalize and make ward issues a national church issue. It must be a cultural issue.

Edited December 25, 2015 by why me

[3DOP]

In the Roman calendar, The Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist was six months ago, on June 24th. The Feast of the Annunciation, when our Lord was conceived by the Holy Ghost, is nine months ago, March 25th. At a time when Antioch had been celebrating Christmas on Dec. 25th for a mere ten years, an Eastern Father, and bishop of Constantinople, St. John Chrysostom made argument in favor of the date of Dec. 25th based on two facts. First, that the Roman church kept the date from antiquity, and no city would be better situated than Rome for interested parties to access the records that might indicate the approximate times for when the census took place which providentially resulted in the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, as prophesied by the prophet Micah. Another argument stems from the vision of Zachary in the temple on the seventh month, which accords with our end of September, or early October. This would be why our Lady was told by the Angel Gabriel that her cousin Elizabeth was six months with child in the end of March. 

There is no need to shy away from the obvious. The Roman church was aware that pre-Christian observers celebrated the return of the sun in late December. And why not? Who doesn't like the sun, especially in the bleak days of late December? It seems significant to us that St. John is recorded to have said, "He must increase, but I must decrease." Without disregarding plainer meanings, we may wonder at how the Church celebrates her feasts in such a way that it seems like the very sun in the sky witnesses John being born when the light is greatest, but on the decrease, while the Son of God is born while the light is least, but on the increase. I hope that perhaps someone will have the faith to consider that God in His wisdom would orchestrate events in the life of Christ and His church to parallel the phenomena which we experience in nature for twelve months as long as we live. Surely we shouldn't be surprised that God only created this world for the sake of Christ and His Church. Those of faith might not be surprised, and even delighted, to see how the sun and moon and stars bear witness together with the voices of the evangelists, adding a silent affirmation to the words which have astonished the world for two millenia..."The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

Merry Christmas.

3DOP

PS: We are not unfamiliar with the fact that it is now summer in Australia. Likewise, our Australian brothers believe that Christ was born in Bethlehem, not Sydney.

Edited December 25, 2015 by 3DOP
making clearer I hope.

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You presiding?  That means he probably will not be there. 

Correct. He made it clear from the outset that he had no intention to attend. I wasn't surprised since, as I mentioned before, this doesn't suit his family's needs on Christmas Day.

And in response to Scott, yes, we emphasise that this is an event that exists to meet the needs of people who wish to participate, and no pressure is brought to bear on anyone, though that tends to be our approach to all ward gatherings outside of regular Sunday meetings, council meetings, and midweek activities for the children and youth.

By the way, for anyone interested, we had 52 people (16 children and 36 adults) in attendance this morning, including one investigator. Our city really empties at Christmastime as many people travel to be with family over the holidays, and we may not even reach triple digits in sacrament meeting this Sunday, so this was a rather large number of people. Some years we've had as few as 20.

The service only ran 40 minutes since the 5-minute video had to be cut owing to problems with the A/V equipment. (We had the same issue with our convert baptismal service a couple of weeks ago, so I had prepared the text to work either with or without the video.) The spirit of the get-together was really good, I thought -- and which a number of people afterward said to me. I felt impressed to ask one brother to give the closing testimony, but then I worried that women were under-represented, so I asked a sister instead -- an adult convert who used to be an evangelical atheist -- and the brother gave the closing prayer. Both were perfect and powerful, and in many ways the closing prayer was its own testimony. I noted that our investigator wept during them.

A few people left immediately after, but most hung around for some time, up to nearly an hour, hugging each other and offering Christmas greetings.

Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!

Edited December 25, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[sdc999]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sounds nice. 

I suppose if attendance is optional -- and everybody knows that -- I'm ok with it. 

I would worry about introducing yet more structure where most people are already overbooked as it is. 

I would sincerely hope that attendance is always optional, no matter what event or day it is.

Merry Christmas to all.

[rodheadlee]

23 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This has been a somewhat frustrating Christmas season at church.

1- Our bishop banned all Christmas music in any ward meeting (sacrament, relief society, priesthood etc) until the Sunday before Christmas. Why? Because he wanted all of the music leading up to Christmas to be Christ centered. Hmmm....ok. Perhaps he doesn't understand what a Christmas Carole is.

2- Dec. 20th when Christmas music is now a part of church services we had an opening and closing Christmas Hymn. They were fine but not any of the famous, popular, usual hymns we would normally sing BUT there was a big musical program. NONE of the songs were Christmas songs. They were all Christ centered but not Christmassy. They intermixed short readings from Luke 2 but no Christmas talk all month.

3- Sunday School lessons for the past 3 weeks have all been about the apocalypse. We're studying the NT this year so it seems like a little advent/nativity lesson would be easy enough but the teacher is simply following the lesson manual so we don't get any Christmas in Sunday School.

4- Priesthood and Relief Society lessons have been about sustaining leaders and temple worship. All fine and good, but not Christmassy.

5- No Christmas Eve or Christmas day services or celebration.

6- Christmas Tree in the foyer finally went up last week to collect gift cards for the needy in the ward to be delivered sometime this week.

 

Thankfully we didn't have a repeat of years past when Joseph Smith was the center of the Sunday before Christmas because it fell on his birthday, but I think we can do better. Most of the things I listed are specific to my ward but I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a Christmas eve or Christmas day service to put the "mass" in Christmas. Tonight I'm taking my family to a Baptist service for some good Christmas music and a message. It's a shame I can't get that need filled at church.

Could we do better?

I hope you all have a wonderful and Merry Christmas!

 

We? Do you have  mouse in your pocket?  Our bishop came to my boat bearing gifts and cards. Unfortunately we weren't home, we're in Los Angeles for the day. Say, is your  bishop's name Ebeneezer?

 

 

Merry Christmas !!!!! I hope you have a great day.

[volgadon]

3 hours ago, sdc999 said:

I would sincerely hope that attendance is always optional, no matter what event or day it is.

Merry Christmas to all.

things like the three-hour block are optional in that no one will break down your door and drag you out there, but not optional in the sense of good standing, etc.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Our ward Christmas tree had tithing slips as ornaments. It made me laugh.

[Ahab]

I volunteered for my first time to be a wise man at the stake Christmas event this year, since the clothing was provided and the bishop said they would be making phone calls since nobody had volunteered the Sunday before the event. It was also my first time to go to the stake Christmas event, with my wife, and we were very impressed. The area around the entrance to the stake center building was decorated as if it was part of a field where shepherds were tending sheep, with real live sheep and men dressed up as shepherds and enough grass and plants around to complete the idea, and inside the cultural hall the walls were covered or faced with various contours and types of material that made them look like either stone walls or walls of different kinds of buildings as if it was part of the town of Bethlehem (with me knowing the name of the town only because I know where Jesus was born). There were lots of tall grassy plants and even some Palm trees around to make the space feel like it was outdoors, with various kinds of buildings including stables around. It was very well done.

I stood with 2 others as wise men in an outdoor setting that looked as if we had just come into town, on the other end of the cultural hall away from the end decorated as the main nativity scene, with various building/stable scenes in between. And while I was standing there as a wise man I realized that the cultural hall would still be decorated that way the next day, a Sunday, and that the wards who go to that building for worship services would still have that atmosphere around them. And that, to me, seemed like it would be a wondetful way to "do" Christmas.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, sdc999 said:

I would sincerely hope that attendance is always optional, no matter what event or day it is.

Merry Christmas to all.

There is optional and there is optional. With Sabbath day meetings in the three-hour block, there ought to be an expectation that everyone attend, and this should be clearly communicated. 

Even with ward activities, there is the matter of supporting those who have put time and effort into the planning -- and helping to make it a good, well-attended experience for investigators or less active folks. Something like a Christmas Day service I don't think rises to the level of the above, though I readily grant that it sounds like Hamba's effort was very successful. 

Edited December 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Rain]

23 hours ago, 3DOP said:

There is no need to shy away from the obvious. The Roman church was aware that pre-Christian observers celebrated the return of the sun in late December. And why not? Who doesn't like the sun, especially in the bleak days of late December? It seems significant to us that St. John is recorded to have said, "He must increase, but I must decrease." Without disregarding plainer meanings, we may wonder at how the Church celebrates her feasts in such a way that it seems like the very sun in the sky witnesses John being born when the light is greatest, but on the decrease, while the Son of God is born while the light is least, but on the increase. I hope that perhaps someone will have the faith to consider that God in His wisdom would orchestrate events in the life of Christ and His church to parallel the phenomena which we experience in nature for twelve months as long as we live. Surely we shouldn't be surprised that God only created this world for the sake of Christ and His Church. Those of faith might not be surprised, and even delighted, to see how the sun and moon and stars bear witness together with the voices of the evangelists, adding a silent affirmation to the words which have astonished the world for two millenia..."The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

 

What you said about the sun really touches me. My husband's favorite day of the year is the winter soltice.  He loves that the days grow "longer." It makes sense to celebrate the coming of Christ when the days are shortest and darkest. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Rain

[cinepro]

On 12/24/2015 at 8:14 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

Could we do better?

I hope you all have a wonderful and Merry Christmas!

 

For all the uniformity and correlation in the Church, it's interesting to hear about the widely different ways different Wards celebrate (or don't celebrate) Christmas.  When I lived in West LA, our Ward Christmas dinners were a fancy sit down dinner (usually catered).  In my current suburban ward, it's usually a breakfast with half the people still in their pajamas.

My current stake has a lot of musical talent and puts on an amazing Christmas presentation with full choir, orchestra and multimedia elements.  A high quality PA and lighting system is rented, and the first few rows of pews in the chapel are removed to make way for the musicians.  It's held in the Stake Center, and gets quite a good turnout for a Saturday evening performance and two Sunday evening shows.  Lots of friends and neighbors from the community attend.

But the greatest gift of all is that my Ward's meetings were truncated two weeks ago so we could clear the building for the Sunday afternoon performance.  Nothing like a one-hour block to put you in the Christmas spirit!

 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 12/24/2015 at 0:39 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

It has a long tradition in our ward, and attendance is, of course, optional. Our current bishop (called earlier this year), is not a fan personally, and I've never seen him attend in the past, but when it was raised in ward council a month ago, he gladly endorsed the holding of it and accepted my offer to be in charge (including presiding). It has been announced in ward meetings all month. It's an important event each year for a number of families in the ward, and of course for a number of us singles. I've become a big fan myself. It's good to be with ward family on such a day. We intentionally keep things short so that those who want to can head other places, but about half of the attendees usually spend a good hour or so afterward just chatting, letting the kids play in the courtyard, etc. In addition, we often get walk-ins from off the street. I hope that happens this year!

Well bishops love their wards and serving 24 hours a day.

On the other hand,  I can guarantee that Christmas morning without setting up chairs and dealing with the diplomacy required in dealing with occasionally troubled people who are constantly demanding, might be a nice "option".

Growing up Catholic I miss having Mass on Christmas.  In fact I like the tradition so much with memories of my childhood, serving midnight mass, that I often watch it on TV just for its value as a personal tradition.  And were I a Catholic priest instead of a Mormon one, I might enjoy saying mass myself. 

On the other hand, from the LDS pov, it's pretty clear to me that having Christmas Day services might be nice, but it also is great when you are in a bishopric, to spend time with your own family especially on Christmas.

I can see how it works so well for you personally and your ward.  It's really kind of the best of both worlds- you find joy in taking care of an option which could be a burden for the rest of the bishopric, so everyone wins: both those who want to attend and those who do not!

[mfbukowski]

31 minutes ago, cinepro said:

For all the uniformity and correlation in the Church, it's interesting to hear about the widely different ways different Wards celebrate (or don't celebrate) Christmas.  When I lived in West LA, our Ward Christmas dinners were a fancy sit down dinner (usually catered).  In my current suburban ward, it's usually a breakfast with half the people still in their pajamas.

My current stake has a lot of musical talent and puts on an amazing Christmas presentation with full choir, orchestra and multimedia elements.  A high quality PA and lighting system is rented, and the first few rows of pews in the chapel are removed to make way for the musicians.  It's held in the Stake Center, and gets quite a good turnout for a Saturday evening performance and two Sunday evening shows.  Lots of friends and neighbors from the community attend.

But the greatest gift of all is that my Ward's meetings were truncated two weeks ago so we could clear the building for the Sunday afternoon performance.  Nothing like a one-hour block to put you in the Christmas spirit!

 

 

Holy cow.

We used to be in the same stake.  Rather interesting.

[Jeanne]

6 hours ago, Ahab said:

I volunteered for my first time to be a wise man at the stake Christmas event this year, since the clothing was provided and the bishop said they would be making phone calls since nobody had volunteered the Sunday before the event. It was also my first time to go to the stake Christmas event, with my wife, and we were very impressed. The area around the entrance to the stake center building was decorated as if it was part of a field where shepherds were tending sheep, with real live sheep and men dressed up as shepherds and enough grass and plants around to complete the idea, and inside the cultural hall the walls were covered or faced with various contours and types of material that made them look like either stone walls or walls of different kinds of buildings as if it was part of the town of Bethlehem (with me knowing the name of the town only because I know where Jesus was born). There were lots of tall grassy plants and even some Palm trees around to make the space feel like it was outdoors, with various kinds of buildings including stables around. It was very well done.

I stood with 2 others as wise men in an outdoor setting that looked as if we had just come into town, on the other end of the cultural hall away from the end decorated as the main nativity scene, with various building/stable scenes in between. And while I was standing there as a wise man I realized that the cultural hall would still be decorated that way the next day, a Sunday, and that the wards who go to that building for worship services would still have that atmosphere around them. And that, to me, seemed like it would be a wondetful way to "do" Christmas.

That sounds beautiful!

My family did a nativity play at our Christmas Eve party using the little children.  My stepmother is German and we also decorated the tree.  It turned out really nice and the kids did their parts so seriously..even the baby Jesus looked so real!  My stepmother concluded with Silent Night in German so it was such a nice experience.  Working at Walmart, I have been looking a commercial Christmas since Halloween..I was so sick of it!  This sounds like a beautiful change or a keeper in any family or church.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's really kind of the best of both worlds- you find joy in taking care of an option which could be a burden for the rest of the bishopric, so everyone wins: both those who want to attend and those who do not!

That's precisely how ward leadership sees it too. I think if our ward had a motto, it would be simply 'We meet needs'.

Quote

In fact I like the tradition so much with memories of my childhood, serving midnight mass, that I often watch it on TV just for its value as a personal tradition.  And were I a Catholic priest instead of a Mormon one, I might enjoy saying mass myself. 

My family was never Catholic, but I grew up watching midnight mass on TV, and I have fond memories of its sacred majesty.

This actually coloured my expectations last week when I attended a funeral in a local Catholic church. The deceased was a close friend whom the missionaries and I have worked closely with for a couple of years. Raised by a very Catholic family, he made the decision to be baptised LDS back in the early 90s but then never really stuck with it, in large part because he was fighting the demon of drug addiction. But he was a very faithful, religious man, who daily read from both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. If I had to class his 'affiliation', I would have called him a 'Mormon Catholic'. For example, he prayed like a Saint, but he also still recited the rosary. A single dad with two young children, he made the decision a couple of months ago, in consultation with his parents, that the best thing for his kids would be to raise them as Catholics, and so they started attending a Catholic church and preparing the children for the sacrament of penance. In the meantime, the Elders still visited several times per week to share inspiring messages with the kids and to pray with the family.

When he died unexpectedly two weeks ago, the family naturally made the decision to hold his funeral in the Catholic church. I, his home teachers, and the bishop volunteered to assist in any way the family desired, though, and in the end it was a very 'hybrid' day. About half of those who attended were ward members. One home teacher provided all of the music at the funeral. The family asked me to be speak. Our elders quorum sang three hymns at the graveside service. And the wake was held in our church hall.

I was so glad that we got to participate because the 'Catholic' parts of the service were lifeless and uninspiring. I had expected something along the lines of 'sacred majesty', and instead all we got was an old priest who mumbled some things from a book without any sense of personal connection to what he was saying. Needless to say, I was disappointed.

During the wake, I had at least half a dozen family members express their gratitude to me for our contributions to the day. One of them in particular said, 'Without you and your community, we would have found no comfort today'. I was glad for that but sincerely wished that the whole thing had been a bit 'more'.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well bishops love their wards and serving 24 hours a day.

On the other hand,  I can guarantee that Christmas morning without setting up chairs and dealing with the diplomacy required in dealing with occasionally troubled people who are constantly demanding, might be a nice "option".

Growing up Catholic I miss having Mass on Christmas.  In fact I like the tradition so much with memories of my childhood, serving midnight mass, that I often watch it on TV just for its value as a personal tradition.  And were I a Catholic priest instead of a Mormon one, I might enjoy saying mass myself. 

On the other hand, from the LDS pov, it's pretty clear to me that having Christmas Day services might be nice, but it also is great when you are in a bishopric, to spend time with your own family especially on Christmas.

I can see how it works so well for you personally and your ward.  It's really kind of the best of both worlds- you find joy in taking care of an option which could be a burden for the rest of the bishopric, so everyone wins: both those who want to attend and those who do not!

My second Christmas on my mission in Sweden, we attended julotta, the Christmas morning service of the Swedish state church (Lutheran) at one of the big cathedrals in Stockholm. I've always been glad I took the opportunity to experience that.

Our eldest son is serving his mission in Sweden now. I tried to get him to go to julotta, but when we talked to him this morning via Skype, he said he hadn't done so. I was somewhat disappointed. I guess it depends greatly on what his companion wants to do or the other elders in his apartment (there are four of them in total).