The New Anti-Mormons Are Lds

[3DOP]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

 

 

[The Nehor]

We do not excommunicate them like we used to.

Ahhhhhh......the good old days.....

[Kenngo1969]

Interesting thoughts, Rory.  Reminds me of the line from the old Pogo comic strip, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

 

I said several months ago (in fact, I think it was in response to another thread you started (or at least participated in) about the Roman Catholic Church) that what people who say, "I believe in/love the church/would follow the doctrine if only the church changed [x]" don't realize that "merely" changing [x] would have unforeseen, unintended consequences like ripples in a pond, and would change the church in such fundamental ways that they would no longer consider it (at least, they wouldn't consider it as much) their spiritual home.

 

I don't want to cast aspersions at my fellow Latter-day Saints, particularly not at those who are struggling, but in Lehi's vision in the Book of Mormon, he sees multitudes pressing forward through difficulty, grasping an iron rod to guide them to the tree of life where they partake of the fruit of the Love of God.  Some of them (even among those who reach the tree) see multitudes in a great and spacious building which is supposed to represent the world, who are pointing their fingers, laughing at, and mocking those who have partaken of the fruit, and they are ashamed.  Sometimes I wonder how many of my fellow Latter-day Saints are among the ashamed ones, or are even among those in the great and spacious building.

 

P.S.: I thought my thoughts here were germane to this discussion, as well: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64281-what-will-happen-to-the-church-if-it-fails-to-adapt/?p=1209424735

Edited October 2, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[why me]

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

I have my suspicions about some of the lds on this board that are so hypercritical of the lds church. In the past I think that some lds would have labeled them trolls because it seems that no matter what answers are given they can still find something to complain about or even bring up the same problem later.

 

I would say that it would be a good tactic to pose as lds with the same critiques of the critics of the lds church and cloak them in being an active mormon. And it does seem to me that we have more pro- lds on this board on limited status than people that are critical of the lds whether a member or not. Times have certainly changed---but for the better or for the worse is debatable.

Edited October 2, 2014 by why me

[Hamba Tuhan]

I suspect it has always been thus. The Book of Mormon repeatedly demonstrates that the only real threat ever faced by the Nephites was internal dissension emanating from pride and the desire to follow the world.

[teddyaware]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

 

This post is an almost unbelievable coincidence! I've been participating on this board for almost 3 years now and just today -- after answering some questions posed to me by other members of this board -- I thought to myself: "Wow this board is definitely becoming anti-Mormon! Only the anti-Mormons aren't members of non-LDS churches, the anti-Mormons are practicing members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!"

 

After ruminating and lamenting over this sad situation, where general negativity, burgeoning unbelief and mocking disrespect toward the leaders of the Church seem to be spreading like virulent viruses, I wondered how much longer I would be able to continue to participate and "hold down the fort for the good guys,' as it were, before it becomes too spiritually unhealthy to stay involved.

 

I wanted to start a thread on this unpleasant but timely topic, but knew I wouldn't be able to because of my "limited" status on the board. And then I thought that even if I could start a thread, I would be filled with a lot trepidation to do so for fear the moderators would ban me from the board forever.

 

So there. Thanks to you, Rory, I was able to throw in my 2 cents on the subject and, hopefully, I won't get banned for speaking my mind. Nevertheless, if this trend continues, I may have to severely limit or even end my participation on this board for the sake of my own spiritual health.

 

Many thanks to you...

Edited October 2, 2014 by teddyaware

[Sevenbak]

Teddyaware, if there was a LIKE button, I'd use it.  I guess this will do.  

[JLHPROF]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

 

I think the main reason for this is that in the last few years the trend has become to attempt to make the Church in our own image instead of making ourselves conform to the Church as is.

This gives every member with an opinion or an agenda on how the Church should be run an excuse to complain that the Church isn't doing it.

These members aren't actually finding fault with the Church - they are simply noticing that the Church isn't exactly how they want it.

[BCSpace]

Teddyaware, if there was a LIKE button, I'd use it.  I guess this will do.  

 

In looking at your siggy Sevenbak, I thought you might be interested to know that Ezra Taft Benson dropped 'organic evolution' from the 1975 list in 1988 when he was the Prophet:

 

The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time.

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/the-book-of-mormon-is-the-word-of-god

 

 

Hopefully no one considers me too much of an anti Mormon for pointing that out.

 

[mormonnewb]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

 

Really, Rory?  Didn't you recently go on and on about how Pope Francis was ruining the Catholic Church?  Talk about the pot calling the kettle, "Apostate!"

 

Us anti-Mormons are simply doing what you anti-Catholics are doing ... trying to bring about Zion.

[Rivers]

I hope I'm not one if the anti mormon LDS. I like asking questions which is what the church encourages. I try not cross the line of tearing down the church.

[Rain]

Teddyaware, if there was a LIKE button, I'd use it.  I guess this will do.  

Look to the right at the bottom of the post.  The "like" button is the arrow that points up.

[mormonnewb]

I have my suspicions about some of the lds on this board that are so hypercritical of the lds church. In the past I think that some lds would have labeled them trolls because it seems that no matter what answers are given they can still find something to complain about or even bring up the same problem later.

 

I would say that it would be a good tactic to pose as lds with the same critiques of the critics of the lds church and cloak them in being an active mormon. And it does seem to me that we have more pro- lds on this board on limited status than people that are critical of the lds whether a member or not. Times have certainly changed---but for the better or for the worse is debatable.

 

You really have to get over this delusion that you have that everybody wants "to be like Brigham."  If I didn't have SOME connection to Mormonism, why would I spend countless hours trying to tear down THIS faith?  Why wouldn't I go after one of the "Big Boys" -- Catholicism, Islam, Scientology?  Seriously, why would I bother with an otherwise insignificant portion of the religious world, and on a board with limited participation (and active ... and extremely good-looking ... moderators)?

 

If I wanted to do some significant "trolling," I would post my "vitriol" to HuffPost or DrudgeReport or just YouTube, where it might be seen by tens of thousands (as opposed to tens).  On those sites, I could really go "full troll."

 

I simply can't fathom that there is ANYONE on this board who doesn't have a very personal relationship to Mormonism.  There simply isn't any other rational reason to participate here.

[The Nehor]

I simply can't fathom that there is ANYONE on this board who doesn't have a very personal relationship to Mormonism.  There simply isn't any other rational reason to participate here.

On what evidence do you base your inference that the participants on this board are rational?

[saemo]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

Orthopraxy is the emphasis in Mormonism, nor orthodoxy.

But the turnover of beliefs started decades ago, and maybe has accelerated over the last decade. What people on this site call folk doctrine,I was taught as God's truth straight from the prophets. That was a long time ago, before the almighty internet. I came to the conclusion within the last two years or so, that Mormonism is something different for every Mormon. There are few defined teachings that every member is expected to believe. All else is very wide open to personal interpretation and that seems to be ok, as long as the line isn't crossed, the one that Martha Beck called the 11th commandment. Thou shalt not commit publicity.

[Storm Rider]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

 

My initial thoughts:  

 

1) it has always been that our worst critics were former LDS from the days of Joseph Smith until today,  

2)  Claiming to be LDS and being LDS are two wholly separate things.  If an individual claims he is Catholic but rejects the doctrine and/or teachings of the Eucharist, sacraments, and Apostolic succession is s/he still a Catholic?  I would say no.  We have some participants here that may still claim to be LDS, but I suspect are firmly in the thrall of rebellion and apostasy.  

3)  We really could run this board with recorded answers. If question 12 comes in answer 12 comes out. Those with ears will hear and respond with a broken heart and pick up their cross and follow the Savior more fully.  What we have now are individuals who simply ignore all answers, scriptures, and revelation and keep repeating their own mantra for their golden calf while blindly attacking the Church.

4)  We then have those that have left the church and continue to talk about it.  They make it clear even if their sacred cows were somehow accepted in the Church they would not return.  They obviously enjoy Mormon topics, but their actions remain destructive to the faith of those who have real questions.

 

It sounds old fashioned, but Satan is real and he is active.  The statements and actions of some individuals on this board are sure evidence that he has found success.

[saemo]

Really, Rory?  Didn't you recently go on and on about how Pope Francis was ruining the Catholic Church?  Talk about the pot calling the kettle, "Apostate!"

 

Us anti-Mormons are simply doing what you anti-Catholics are doing ... trying to bring about Zion.

Fellow Catholic here. 3DOP is Catholic. More orthodox than the Pope! Which is the short synopsis of the problem he sees with the papacy. That is, the Pope should be as orthodox as the Popes, excluding the bad ones. This view of the papacy doesn't make him an apostate.

Apostasy for a Catholic requires very specific acts. Disagreeing with the Pope, and speaking out against the papacy, isn't one of them.

[Tacenda]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

Rory

Because the anti stuff is now spoken about by apologists and scholars and transparency is the name of the game. I remember the hashing out (or denials) of the non literal translation of the BoA, Adam God theory, JS's marriages vs. sealings only, and several others I can't think of because of lack of sleep. But that may be the answer for why the LDS are saying things now.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Whenever I have faith criseses or doubts, I always remember the time I felt the strongest spirit during a priesthood blessing from my home teacher, now Bishop and I remember how true the church is and how real the spirit is.

[Calm]

And it does seem to me that we have more pro- lds on this board on limited status than people that are critical of the lds whether a member or not.

Probably because the critical are more likely to get banned.

[Avatar4321]

You really have to get over this delusion that you have that everybody wants "to be like Brigham."  If I didn't have SOME connection to Mormonism, why would I spend countless hours trying to tear down THIS faith?  Why wouldn't I go after one of the "Big Boys" -- Catholicism, Islam, Scientology?  Seriously, why would I bother with an otherwise insignificant portion of the religious world, and on a board with limited participation (and active ... and extremely good-looking ... moderators)?

 

If I wanted to do some significant "trolling," I would post my "vitriol" to HuffPost or DrudgeReport or just YouTube, where it might be seen by tens of thousands (as opposed to tens).  On those sites, I could really go "full troll."

 

I simply can't fathom that there is ANYONE on this board who doesn't have a very personal relationship to Mormonism.  There simply isn't any other rational reason to participate here.

why spend countless hours tearing down any faith? Wouldn't building faith be a much better use of time?

[Avatar4321]

I haven't noticed change in anti Mormon activity lately. Seems to be the same as usual.

of course I don't usually ask people their status in the church when confronting their arguments or questions.

[Boanerges]

I'm not so sure what you describe as anti is actually that - I think it's more a diversity of thought and a willingness on the part of the church leadership to accept that there is such diversity. Since the Catholic church has been used as a point of comparison already, Catholicism is 2000 years old, Mormonism just under 200. Catholicism embraces the idea of diversity of thought and the leadership full well understands that not every Catholic believes exactly the same as the Catholic next to him. As the CoJCoLDS matures, I believe it coming to the same terms. The "old guard" (if you will) needs to realize this - not every member of the church has to believe exactly the same as his neighbor to be a member in good standing. We really are not that homogenous, despite the idea that some would like to believe we are.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Boanerges

[3DOP]

Really, Rory?  Didn't you recently go on and on about how Pope Francis was ruining the Catholic Church?  Talk about the pot calling the kettle, "Apostate!"

 

Us anti-Mormons are simply doing what you anti-Catholics are doing ... trying to bring about Zion.

 

I do not believe that anyone can ruin the Catholic Church, and I hope I have been prudent with regards to my defense of the Catholic Church before Pope Francis. I am keenly conscious of the fact that this is an LDS board and I try to refrain from sharing my misgivings of his reign to those times when someone LDS praises Francis for what is in effect, a criticism of the Catholic Church as she has been for nearly 2,000 years. I don't think you will discover that I started any threads on the subject. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that it is possible, I have failed in this and have instead gone "on and on".

 

I will not sit quiet for glowing "praise" of a kind of Catholicism that is limited to the papacy of Francis. Such "praise" is in my opinion, the harshest criticism of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that I am determined to defend . But I will be more careful in the future to make sure I do not speak my mind except when prompted. 

 

Rory   

Edited October 2, 2014 by 3DOP

[sdc999]

I think the main reason for this is that in the last few years the trend has become to attempt to make the Church in our own image instead of making ourselves conform to the Church as is.

This gives every member with an opinion or an agenda on how the Church should be run an excuse to complain that the Church isn't doing it.

These members aren't actually finding fault with the Church - they are simply noticing that the Church isn't exactly how they want it.

Well, this is just my opinion but I think that the members wanted it to be how they were told it was all of their life.  As new essays come forth and new 'truths' come forth, they are shocked to learn that, yes, Joseph did marry other men's wive's, there was not a shortage of men, he did translate the plates with his head in a hat - not by candle light according to the nice pictures in the hallway.  

I'm always baffled by the few who say, 'how could someone not know, my grandfather told me all of this since I was two, sitting on his knee.'     Well, guess what.... If you knew all of the truths vs. the folklore that the church has allowed for genereations, I would consider you to be the smallest of the minority.   Yes, the church has allowed folklore to drive the beliefs of members.  And now, those folklores are front and center in a lot of member's challanged beliefs - and not all appreciate the deceptiveness.

So yes, you are correct JLHPROF, the church isn't how they want it.  They want it to be as it was taught to them.