The New Anti-Mormons Are Lds

[Ahab]

I couldn't disagree more.

There's a word for your denial of what is both true and good. I call it anti-Mormon.

 

You are out of the thread.

[DBMormon]

There's a word for your denial of what is both true and good. I call it anti-Mormon.

Is being inclusive of you gay brother anti mormon and to hope for his ability to be both authentic and active in the church mormon or Anti Mormon?  In your model it is one or the other and yet for me it may be both.  I can be both Mormon and Anti Mormon at the same time depending on who is judging me.  But God looketh on the heart.  Behavior can never be defined as Mormon or Anti Mormon in most of these instances.... To judge behavior would otherwise be for me anti-mormon

I choose not to label most people in most instances as either mormon or anti mormon as there is no spelled out defined creed we could use to define either when speaking of members of the church.

Edited October 2, 2014 by DBMormon

[Buzzard]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

I don't know if you can draw conclusions about the church based on the posts of several dozen (to maybe a few hundred) people on this forum, or even a few thousand on all the LDS-related forums out there.  In talking to the members of my HP group and some in the EQ, I have yet to find another that does this.  Some are active on other social media, but not on discussion boards, or even Facebook pages which discuss doctrine.  So we are a pretty small sample size.  Maybe our posts should be clearly marked "For entertainment purposes only".

Besides entertainment, I do come on here to learn what others think, but even as a self-described defender of orthodoxy on this board, I don't fool myself that I change the arc of the church.  About the most I can hope for is to get someone to agree with me. Fat chance. 

I do get a kick out of the anti-LDS triumphalists, mainly on the comment boards of the Tribune, and I'm sure a lot of boards I never visit, who declare the imminent collapse of the church due to the internet.  There are even a couple on my old mission Facebook page. One is publicly ex-LDS, as in he called the newspaper when he resigned.  The other, who was actually in my district back in the day, is still ostensibly LDS, but never misses a chance to predict our impending doom. 

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Everything is either Mormon (or Mormon-friendly) vs anti-Mormon (or opposed to all things Mormon or Mormon-friendly. Whatever you say when you want to be understood and heard and validated. Every time you open your mouth or type on a keyboard. You are on one side or the other, even if you switch back and forth from one side to the other.

What an utterly ridiculous statement. This entire thread is offensive. For you self-righteous, judgemental types you may want to consider the possibility that your actions define you as anti-mormon as those are qualities Mormons are supposed to avoid. By celebrating your judgmentalism you are becoming the thing you decry.

 

Many who label others as anti-mormon simply are unable or unwilling to comprehend that a view differing view may have merit. This is the height of pride and hypocricy. Judge me for asking questions all you like because your judgement means nothing to me. You have no authority to judge others. The only reason you do it is to make yourself feel better about being more special or righteous than someone else. Like the adage state, "if you think you're humble, you probably aren't." Same goes for wisdom.

 

What some of you view as criticism and unworthy questioning by some of us is actually our way of trying to strengthen the church. Not because we're trying to make it in our image but because many of the old answers simply don't work and people who struggle with that need to be protected from the judginess of the self-proclaimed righteous.

[HappyJackWagon]

OP-

 

Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Besides, what is or isn't satisfactory is in the eye of the beholder. An answer that might work for you doesn't necessarily work for me.

[saemo]

My initial thoughts:  

 

2)  Claiming to be LDS and being LDS are two wholly separate things.  If an individual claims he is Catholic but rejects the doctrine and/or teachings of the Eucharist, sacraments, and Apostolic succession is s/he still a Catholic?  I would say no.  We have some participants here that may still claim to be LDS, but I suspect are firmly in the thrall of rebellion and apostasy.  

 

The Catholic Church would say yes. By the grace of baptism "once a Catholic always a Catholic". Forming a moral conscience, is more the Catholic view of things. That is, a Catholic may form a judgement, and disagree, and that disagreement can be free of guilt, if say conversion is lacking or not complete, information is missing or not understood, etc. Erroneous judgements can and are made by every individual, but that is not viewed as an immoral act when a person is acting in accord with their conscience. Quite the opposite, a person who acts against their own conscience condemns themselves. "The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed." (CCC 1802) It is the Spirit that brings people to understanding, not a list of rules and regulations enforced from the outside. The dignity of the individual, as a creation of God, made in the image of God, must always be respected. "Conscience is man's most secret core, and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths." (CCC 1795)

 

IIRC, it was John Paul II who once said, the Church has nothing to say to any individual, until they understand the love of God. ie, enforcement of orthodoxy, is not orthodoxy. "Right belief", is not believing for the sake of believing, but is rooted in believing in the love of God, and His good will towards oneself. 

 

To quote one of our deacons, "God loves you, and there is nothing you can do about that." All else Catholic, flows from that understanding.

Edited October 2, 2014 by saemo

[bcuzbcuz]

I have my suspicions about some of the lds on this board that are so hypercritical of the lds church. In the past I think that some lds would have labeled them trolls because it seems that no matter what answers are given they can still find something to complain about or even bring up the same problem later.

 

I would say that it would be a good tactic to pose as lds with the same critiques of the critics of the lds church and cloak them in being an active mormon. And it does seem to me that we have more pro- lds on this board on limited status than people that are critical of the lds whether a member or not. Times have certainly changed---but for the better or for the worse is debatable.

¿Hypercritical or hypocritical?

[Ahab]

Is being inclusive of you gay brother anti mormon and to hope for his ability to be both authentic and active in the church mormon or Anti Mormon? In your model it is one or the other and yet for me it may be both.

In my model, as you call it, being Mormon is based on what is true and good, and whether or not we agree on what is true and good and the best way to feel and act toward any of our brothers, or even sisters for that matter, the very best way to be is what I call the Mormon way. It is the best way to be among all of the ways there are to be.

I can be both Mormon and Anti Mormon at the same time depending on who is judging me. But God looketh on the heart.

Right, and God is the ultimate judge of who is Mormon and who isn't, just as God is also the ultimate judge on who is Christian and who isn't. Being Mormon is simply the best form of what it means to be Christian.

Behavior can never be defined as Mormon or Anti Mormon in most of these instances.... To judge behavior would otherwise be for me anti-Mormon

We can define what being Mormon is all about, though, even if we're not as good as God is at determining whether someone is Mormon or anti-Mormon.

I choose not to label most people in most instances as either mormon or anti mormon as there is no spelled out defined creed we could use to define either when speaking of members of the church.

Then you don't claim to know much about who or what is Mormon or anti-Mormon, I suppose.

[bcuzbcuz]

I still speak up when I see that someone is wrong on the internet

Edited October 2, 2014 by bcuzbcuz

[Johnnie Cake]

The term "Anti-Mormon" is soooo 19th century...the new pejorative dejour is "Church Critic"

Edited October 2, 2014 by Johnnie Cake

[Brian 2.0]

In my model, as you call it, being Mormon is based on what is true and good, and whether or not we agree on what is true and good and the best way to feel and act toward any of our brothers, or even sisters for that matter, the very best way to be is what I call the Mormon way. It is the best way to be among all of the ways there are to be.

Right, and God is the ultimate judge of who is Mormon and who isn't, just as God is also the ultimate judge on who is Christian and who isn't. Being Mormon is simply the best form of what it means to be Christian.

We can define what being Mormon is all about, though, even if we're not as good as God is at determining whether someone is Mormon or anti-Mormon.

Then you don't claim to know much about who or what is Mormon or anti-Mormon, I suppose.

 

You are using "the Mormon way" as to say "the best way" so I'll use the latter term here.

 

I'm personally trying to be "the best way to be among all of the ways there are to be".  And for me that means not believing or teaching my children many of the fundamental truth claims of Mormonism or Christianity, including not believing or teaching my children that the only way to return to God is belief in Jesus Christ.  That's me honestly trying to live in the "best way."

 

You obviously have a different interpretation of what "the best way" is, which includes belief in Jesus Christ and the truth claims of Mormonism.

 

Which of us is PRO-"the best way" and which of us is ANTI-"the best way"?

[DBMormon]

Attaching labels like anti_mormon to another member is simply an effort to place yourself as a member of the us in us vs them and give yourself permission to label yourself as one of the good guys

[3DOP]

So then what are the right reasons to be critical of Mormonism?

 

Hi omni. I guess I did hint that there was a right reason. I hope my answer will reflect the great respect I have for LDS apologetics and truth claims in virtually every area but one.

 

In my opinion, Mormonism is clearly defensible against attacks on itself. Right reasons would have to do with being doubtful about when Mormonism goes on the offensive. Any right reason to be critical of Mormonism, in my opinion, would center around the CoJCoLDS when it claims to "restore" that which has been arguably present without interruption since the Day of Pentecost. A right reason to have a doubt about any Restoration would be if like me, one began to think that as Mormonism is defensible against attacks on itself, so perhaps is the Catholic Church. If people are actually troubled about Mormonism because of Mountain Meadows for instance, they show they will be ill-prepared to judge the conquest of Latin America by Spanish treasure hunters.

 

This is why as a Catholic, I want LDS to continue to refine and develop their defensive apologetics and maybe perceive similar methods would be good in evaluating accusations against the Catholic faith. The CoJCoLDS has everything I would expect to see in a true Restoration. The only thing wrong with Mormonism, according to how I see things, is the Catholic Church.

 

Regards,

 

Rory

[3DOP]

I don't know if you can draw conclusions about the church based on the posts of several dozen (to maybe a few hundred) people on this forum, or even a few thousand on all the LDS-related forums out there.  In talking to the members of my HP group and some in the EQ, I have yet to find another that does this.  Some are active on other social media, but not on discussion boards, or even Facebook pages which discuss doctrine.  So we are a pretty small sample size.  Maybe our posts should be clearly marked "For entertainment purposes only".

Besides entertainment, I do come on here to learn what others think, but even as a self-described defender of orthodoxy on this board, I don't fool myself that I change the arc of the church.  About the most I can hope for is to get someone to agree with me. Fat chance. 

I do get a kick out of the anti-LDS triumphalists, mainly on the comment boards of the Tribune, and I'm sure a lot of boards I never visit, who declare the imminent collapse of the church due to the internet.  There are even a couple on my old mission Facebook page. One is publicly ex-LDS, as in he called the newspaper when he resigned.  The other, who was actually in my district back in the day, is still ostensibly LDS, but never misses a chance to predict our impending doom. 

 

Buzzard hi.

 

I agree with your point.  I am glad you made it. That is why I explicitly mentioned my experience which is limited to the internet. I address only that small segment of LDS and make no assumptions regarding my LDS neighbors across the cul-de-sac.

[Ahab]

You are using "the Mormon way" as to say "the best way" so I'll use the latter term here.

I'm personally trying to be "the best way to be among all of the ways there are to be". And for me that means not believing or teaching my children many of the fundamental truth claims of Mormonism or Christianity, including not believing or teaching my children that the only way to return to God is belief in Jesus Christ. That's me honestly trying to live in the "best way."

You obviously have a different interpretation of what "the best way" is, which includes belief in Jesus Christ and the truth claims of Mormonism.

Which of us is PRO-"the best way" and which of us is ANTI-"the best way"?

If you don't know now you might find out later, but the best way to be and the best way to live is, very simply, the best way. Not necessarily the way you think is the best way, or the way I think is the best way either, but the way that is really and truly the best way. And another name for that "best way" is what I refer to as the Mormon way.

And to be anti-Mormon is to be anti-"the best way".

[Brian 2.0]

If you don't know now you might find out later, but the best way to be and the best way to live is, very simply, the best way. Not necessarily the way you think is the best way, or the way I think is the best way either, but the way that is really and truly the best way. And another name for that "best way" is what I refer to as the Mormon way.

And to be anti-Mormon is to be anti-"the best way".

 

So you agree that labeling someone "anti-mormon" by your definition is a completely self-generated label, only applicable to people within your same thinking, because it's completely possible that in the end, the person applying the label is actually "anti-Mormon" when all is said and done.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[Jeanne]

Why is it so easy to decide who is anti???  I have huge disagreements with the church I was brought up with.  I still struggle very much so trying to come to terms of what is truth.  I am sure I come across this board as very anti...but I have said before, I cannot be anti.  My heritage, my family, the core of a lot of feelings both personal and spiritual are tied up into the pioneers who came across the plains..and as my ancestors did, they came first from Wales and Sweden. 

 

Why have anti..TBM's division anyway?  This is (should) be a board that can discuss all things within board rules and answer questions, give opinions and try to understand eachother because God gave us a brain to do so.

 

I cry still at "I Am a Child of God"...and I cry still at "Teach Me Guide Me"..because we can teach eachother.   In all honesty, in all religions, or none; we all search for that same peace.

[Ahab]

So you agree that labeling someone "anti-mormon" by your definition is a completely self-generated label, only applicable to people within your same thinking, because it's completely possible that in the end, the person applying the label is actually "anti-Mormon" when all is said and done.

Think on this idea in your mind for a while:

"The best way can also be called the Mormon way."

With that understood, you should now be able to see that the Mormon way can't ever be NOT the best way.

If you don't understand yet, just keep repeating that idea in your mind while trying to understand what it is that makes the best way the best way.

[Brian 2.0]

If you don't know now you might find out later, but the best way to be and the best way to live is, very simply, the best way. Not necessarily the way you think is the best way, or the way I think is the best way either, but the way that is really and truly the best way. And another name for that "best way" is what I refer to as the Mormon way.

And to be anti-Mormon is to be anti-"the best way".

 

If everyone used this model of thinking and applied it like you are... then EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who is honestly trying to live "the best way they can" would label themselves as "Mormon" and label EVERYONE ELSE that is trying to live another way as "Anti-Mormon".  

 

And how individualized do you think the TRUE "best way" can be?

 

In the end, is it possible that the TRUE "Mormon Way" for John to live is belief in Jesus Christ and following his teaching... and for Sally the TRUE "Mormon Way" is not believing in Jesus Christ?

[Brian 2.0]

Think on this idea in your mind for a while:

"The best way can also be called the Mormon way."

With that understood, you should now be able to see that the Mormon way can't ever be NOT the best way.

If you don't understand yet, just keep repeating that idea in your mind while trying to understand what it is that makes the best way the best way.

 

I understand you fine... but do you accept as a possibility that in your model "The Mormon Way" could, in the end, not involve Mormonism, Joseph Smith, or Jesus Christ?

[Scott Lloyd]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

I've not had the heart to overtly acknowledge it up to now, but I fear you are right, Rory.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Why is it so easy to decide who is anti???  I have huge disagreements with the church I was brought up with.  I still struggle very much so trying to come to terms of what is truth.  I am sure I come across this board as very anti...but I have said before, I cannot be anti.  My heritage, my family, the core of a lot of feelings both personal and spiritual are tied up into the pioneers who came across the plains..and as my ancestors did, they came first from Wales and Sweden. 

 

Why have anti..TBM's division anyway?  This is (should) be a board that can discuss all things within board rules and answer questions, give opinions and try to understand eachother because God gave us a brain to do so.

 

I cry still at "I Am a Child of God"...and I cry still at "Teach Me Guide Me"..because we can teach eachother.   In all honesty, in all religions, or none; we all search for that same peace.

The line is "Lead me, guide me ...."

[Calm]

The term "Anti-Mormon" is soooo 19th century...the new pejorative dejour is "Church Critic"

If you are serious, what is the acceptable neutral way to say someone is a critic of the Church or is that not even acceptable now?

[Avatar4321]

1) Because this topic is about LDS members starting to question the church and it's leaders. They are a perfect case study in that. Many of those beginning to follow Snuffer's counsel are Temple Recommend carrying currently active LDS with callings. I think many are underestimating the scale and momentum the Snuffer movement is beginning to take on. It is larger than I had anticipated.

2) Encouraged, as long as the questions aren't too involved and the explanations accepted without too much follow-up.

3) Agreed, the Restored Gospel is a sweet as the sweetest rose.

1) I disagree with your assessment of sniffer. He, like others, will soon be forgotten. Hopefully with few ultimately being deceived. It is a fascinating case study though.

2) all truth is within the purview of Mormonism. No question is discouraged if it's asked in faith. Because that's how you learn. It's asking questions in attempting to encourage disbelief that is the problem.

[Jeanne]

Scott Lloyd, It has been awhile since I have heard the song.  Thank you for pointing that out to me.  I am sure that no one on board knew what I was talking about until you straightened it all out.  Hugs,  Jeanne