Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 In previous posts in this thread I wrote about postmodernism. However, as the GA stated in his talk saturday morning about relativism, we can also say that many members are now coming under the influence of a relativism when it comes to lds issues. Both postmodernism and relativism compliment the other. It becomes a 'me' and what is good for me. And a questiioning of all truth until there is no longer one truth narrative but a series of small acts to further what the individual wishes to believe...a sort of making the church in what that person wishes it to be. God is no longer relavant. Some are becoming under the influence of moral relativism.I believe it was Elder D. Todd Christofferson who made those comments, and yes, that seems to be the mindset du jour, among young people today, even within the ranks of Church members.
thesometimesaint Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 If you can truthfully and correctly answer the baptism questions. Then you are a LDS as far as I'm concerned. All the rest is so much fluff. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world? Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you? What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions? Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship? You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them? The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal marriage between a man and a woman? The law of tithing. The Word of Wisdom. The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to fellow members. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?
why me Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) I believe it was Elder D. Todd Christofferson who made those comments, and yes, that seems to be the mindset du jour, among young people today, even within the ranks of Church members.And on this board. I think that this is what the OP implied. It seems that among active members we can see a creeping relativism when it comes to various issues and themselves. It can be: This is what I believe the church should do and be. Edited October 4, 2014 by why me
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 Be careful not to judge other members of the church or the board. Everyone in life is going through a different battle.
Storm Rider Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) I vote for Rory and gladly humbly stand beside him and gladly walk away from those that pose as a fellow disciple. The sheer and utter distortion of current and past teachings in order to rationalize individual OPINIONS that have nothing to do with truth and everything to do with assuaging an individuals guilt for apostasy near complete with some poseurs. People, I don't agree with you; I don't support you in your cause and I reject your opinions as nothing more than just opinions. They are not logical; they are built on sand regardless of how many times you want to take cover under your distortion of the words of the prophets and apostles. There is no unity of the faith; our hearts in completely different places. You have abandoned the Church, its principles, and the gospel of Christ. I see no future for you but apostasy. Now you may grumble and roar about what an arrogant twit I am; bereft of any understanding of Christ, of love, and of the gospel, but I know truth when I hear it. It is not in you. Repent. Edited October 4, 2014 by Storm Rider
mormonnewb Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 So you are waiting to go to an "endearing church" to tell you that they have been wrong about serious moral issues and are changing their minds, after they have used theological lies to hurt and condemn innocent people, for periods of centuries and millenia. I have my doubts that many would be drawn by such a move. But maybe you would go and there are others like you? Maybe? But I doubt it would flourish for the reasons I mentioned above. The things I mentioned which involve hatred because of skin color, sexual orientation, and gender would be fatal flaws in my opinion. You can't hate and suppress the innocent for long stretches and still be God's Church. I think many would be looking for a New Restoration. I think it would adversely affect attendance and attitudes, and especially from those faithful who would feel betrayed and who were certain that the Church was never guilty of hatred and was speaking God's truth for those millenia and centuries. So in short, what you would find endearing, I would find to be an insult to the community of the saints that came before us, because in effect, if a church of this generation says a church of past generations was maliciously wrong in such matters, it isn't confessing one's own sins anyway. It is spitting on the graves of our spiritual parents.This is not only wrongheaded thought, but it is outright dangerous. Perhaps, that is why your very own church does not follow it and often acknowledges past misdeeds. I can not think of anything more pathetic than the person who is incapable of perceiving their own faults. Such a person can NEVER grow. And the same is true for companies, nations, churches and families. Likewise, it's healthy to be able to see the faults of our ancestors so that we don't repeat unhealthy patterns.For example, in generations past, parents would often beat their parents, and use the Bible in support of their actions. Today, many of us think that corporeal punishment is more harmful than helpful. Are we denigrating our ancestors by choosing a better way? Or should we continue to beat our precious babies with belts and "switches" to show respect for Nana and Papa?It is possible to respect your ancestors and yet, acknowledge that they were not perfect. The same thing is true for our churches. 1
mormonnewb Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) I vote for Rory and gladly humbly stand beside him and gladly walk away from those that pose as a fellow disciple. The sheer and utter distortion of current and past teachings in order to rationalize individual OPINIONS that have nothing to do with truth and everything to do with assuaging an individuals guilt for apostasy near complete with some poseurs. People, I don't agree with you; I don't support you in your cause and I reject your opinions as nothing more than just opinions. They are not logical; they are built on sand regardless of how many times you want to take cover under your distortion of the words of the prophets and apostles. There is no unity of the faith; our hearts in completely different places. You have abandoned the Church, its principles, and the gospel of Christ. I see no future for you but apostasy. Now you may grumble and roar about what an arrogant twit I am; bereft of any understanding of Christ, of love, and of the gospel, but I know truth when I hear it. It is not in you. Repent.Friends, I think we have witnessed the formation of the Church of Rory of Latter-day Storm Riders. I want to be the first to wish you much success! Edited October 4, 2014 by mormonnewb 2
Nevo Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 I don't support you in your cause and I reject your opinions as nothing more than just opinions. They are not logical; they are built on sand regardless of how many times you want to take cover under your distortion of the words of the prophets and apostles. There is no unity of the faith; our hearts in completely different places. You have abandoned the Church, its principles, and the gospel of Christ. I see no future for you but apostasy. Now you may grumble and roar about what an arrogant twit I am; bereft of any understanding of Christ, of love, and of the gospel, but I know truth when I hear it. It is not in you. Repent. Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you? 3
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) One of the general conference talks of this morning, given by Elder Lynn G. Robbins, pertains to this thread topic A few pertinent excerpts: When one tries to save face with men, they can unwittingly lose face with God. Thinking one can please God, and at the same time condone the disobedience of men, isn’t neutrality, but duplicity or being two-faced, or trying to “serve two masters” (Matt. 6:24; 3 Ne. 13:24). The scornful often accuse prophets of not living in the 21st century or of being bigoted. They attempt to persuade and even pressure the Church into lowering God’s standards to the level of their own inappropriate behavior, which in the words of Elder Neal A. Maxwell, “leads to self-contentment, but not self-improvement and repentance.” Lowering the Lord’s standards to the level of a society’s inappropriate behavior is—apostasy. Many of the Churches among the Nephites, two centuries after the Savior’s visit to them, began to “dumb down” the doctrine, borrowing a phrase from Elder Holland. As you listen to this passage from 4th Nephi, look for parallels in our day: “And it came to pass that when two hundred and ten years had passed away there were many churches in the land; yea, there were many churches which professed to know the Christ, and yet they did deny the more parts of his gospel, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness” (4 Ne. 1:27).Déjà vu in the latter days! Some members don’t realize they are falling into the same snare when they lobby for acceptance of local or ethnic “traditions of their fathers” that are not in harmony with the gospel culture (D&C 93:39). Still others, self-deceived and in self-denial, plead or demand that bishops lower the standard on temple recommends, school endorsements or missionary applications. It isn’t easy being a bishop under such pressure. However, like the Savior who cleansed the temple to defend its sanctity (John 2:15-16), bishops today are called upon to boldly defend the temple standard. It was the Savior who said, “I will manifest myself to my people in mercy . . . if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house (D&C 110:7-8 ). May His inspiring example strengthen us against the pitfalls of flattery from without or of conceit from within. May it give us courage to never cower or fawn at the feet of intimidation. May it inspire us to go about doing good as anonymously as possible, and not “aspire to the honors of men” (Doctrine and Covenants 121:35). And may His incomparable example help us always remember which is “the first and great commandment” (Matt. 22:37, 38 ). When others demand approval in defiance of God’s commandments, may we always remember whose disciples we are, and which way we face, is my prayer, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. The whole thing is good. Read it when the text comes out on lds.org Edited October 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) Friends, I think we have witnessed the formation of the Church of Rory of Latter-day Storm Riders. I want to be the first to wish you much success!The excerpts I just posted from Elder Robbins' talk seem more consistent with what Rory has said than what you have said. Which leads me to wonder: Who is really the one setting up his own church -- or worse, trying to hijack the Church of Jesus Christ? Edited October 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
rodheadlee Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 You can tell Rory is right by the fact that not one thread was started about General Conference leading up to it. This is the first time I have seen that happen in the 6 years I've been around.
mormonnewb Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 The excerpts I just posted from Elder Robbins' talk seem more consistent with what Rory has said than what you have said. Which leads me to wonder: Who is really the one setting up his own church -- or worse, trying to hijack the Church of Jesus Christ?Wow! Three converts in 15 minutes. At this rate, you'll reach 15 million members in a matter of months.And for the record, we are united in a common belief that the other guy is dead wrong. Where we differ is that I believe HF has established this Church for ALL of His children, even those who are wrong. In fact, He established it ESPECIALLY for those who are wrong.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 Wow! Three converts in 15 minutes. At this rate, you'll reach 15 million members in a matter of months.And for the record, we are united in a common belief that the other guy is dead wrong. Where we differ is that I believe HF has established this Church for ALL of His children, even those who are wrong. In fact, He established it ESPECIALLY for those who are wrong.Actually the Church was established to call all people to repentance and to obey God's commandments so they would one day be worthy to live with Him -- not so they could vote on what they feel comfortable with. More from Elder Robbins: Trying to please others before pleasing God is inverting the first and second great commandments (Matt. 22:37-39). It is forgetting which way we face. And yet, we have all made that mistake because of the fear of men. In Isaiah the Lord warns us: “fear ye not the reproach of men” (Isaiah 51:7, 2 Ne. 8:7). In Lehi’s dream, this fear was triggered by the finger of scorn pointed from the great and spacious building, causing many to forget which way they faced and to leave the tree “ashamed” (1 Ne. 8:25-28).This peer pressure, tries to change a person’s attitudes, if not behavior, by making one feel guilty for giving offense. We seek respectful coexistence with those who point fingers, but when this fear of men tempts us to condone sin, it becomes a “snare” according to the Book of Proverbs (Proverbs 29:25). The snare may be cleverly baited to appeal to our compassionate side, to tolerate or even approve of something that has been condemned by God. For the weak of faith it can be a major stumbling block. I'm not trying to set up my own church, nor is anyone else here doing that against whom you have leveled this false accusation. What I am doing is calling out the de facto endeavor to reshape the Church of Jesus Christ into a form that suits one's own preferences. 3
Senator Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 The excerpts I just posted from Elder Robbins' talk seem more consistent with what Rory has said than what you have said. Which leads me to wonder: Who is really the one setting up his own church -- or worse, trying to hijack the Church of Jesus Christ? Yes, as soon as I heard that talk, I knew you would be trumpeting it.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) Yes, as soon as I heard that talk, I knew you would be trumpeting it.Actually, I don't think I would have mentioned it were it not for this thread and some of the reactions hereon. Edited October 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Senator Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 Actually, I don't think I would have mentioned it were it not for this thread and some of the reactions. Of course
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 I think it's not good to be judgemental of other members faith and calling people apostates or getting close to it. It's not our place to demand that others repent. Judgement is God and Jesus job. Our job is to love our neighbors not talk ill of their views. 1
why me Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 You can tell Rory is right by the fact that not one thread was started about General Conference leading up to it. This is the first time I have seen that happen in the 6 years I've been around.I would have done it but I am on limited. I can't start threads. Many pro lds are on limited. I think that this may be the reason.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 I think it's not good to be judgemental of other members faith and calling people apostates or getting close to it. It's not our place to demand that others repent. Judgement is God and Jesus job. Our job is to love our neighbors not talk ill of their views.From the just-concluded talk delivered by Elder Oaks in conference: "Even as we seek to be meek and to avoid contention, we must not compromise or dilute our commitment to the truths we understand. We must not surrender our positions or our values. The gospel of Jesus Christ and the covenants we have made inevitably cast us as combatants in the eternal contest between truth and error. There is no middle ground in that contest. ... Loving kindness is required, but a follower of Christ -- just like the Master -- will be firm in the truth. 1
why me Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) What I am doing is calling out the de facto endeavor to reshape the Church of Jesus Christ into a form that suits one's own preferences.We see this alot now on this board. I do think that relativists have the upper hand now on the board. The OP is correct. But as I said, we have so many non -relativists on limited now that it is not surprising. I have to wonder why this is and for what purpose. Edited October 4, 2014 by why me 1
why me Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 Wow! Three converts in 15 minutes. At this rate, you'll reach 15 million members in a matter of months.And for the record, we are united in a common belief that the other guy is dead wrong. Where we differ is that I believe HF has established this Church for ALL of His children, even those who are wrong. In fact, He established it ESPECIALLY for those who are wrong.I take it that you are not enjoying the messages of the conference? I think that the messages from the speakers are very relevant for this thread. 2
Guest Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 We see this alot now on this board. I do think that relativists have the upper hand now on the board. The OP is correct. But as I said, we have so many non -relativists on limited now that it is not surprising. I have to wonder why this is and for what purpose.Amen...but it is as one would imagine. It is as Nibley, explained in his book, "Approaching Zion". "The further we get away from Zion, the more we wrap ourselves in the flags of Zion" I am sure I did not quote it correctly, but the same meaning is there.
Senator Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 (edited) We see this alot now on this board. I do think that relativists have the upper hand now on the board. The OP is correct. But as I said, we have so many non -relativists on limited now that it is not surprising. I have to wonder why this is and for what purpose.Bogus!! As is this claim that this massive army of unbelieving, cultural, fringe Mormons are hi-jacking the church and changing it to their own image. Did you not just watch conference? Is it not obvious who is in control of the church? Edited October 4, 2014 by Senator
Guest Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 Bogus!! As is this claim that this massive army of of unbelieving, cultural, fringe Mormons are hi-jacking the church and changing it to their own image. Did you not just watch conference? Is it not obvious who is in control of the church?I think he was talking about the Internet and those using it in hopes of using a different rudder to steer a mighty ship. But I let him defend himself...
mormonnewb Posted October 4, 2014 Posted October 4, 2014 I think he was talking about the Internet and those using it in hopes of using a different rudder to steer a mighty ship. But I let him defend himself...We're not at the rudder of the ship. We're at the bow yelling, "Iceberg! Iceberg!"
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