The New Anti-Mormons Are Lds

[why me]

However, to play your game, I took a look at our respective rep points and you have about 10 times as many as I do. Impressive! Of course, you also have about 20 times as many posts. Therefore, on a per post basis, I have more 'followers" than you do. I guess that means that under your criteria for truth, I'm right after all.

This is not exactly true. Critics of the lds church on this board usually get a loyal following with rep points. So, it is not surprising that you may do well with the rep points. The key is to understand just who may be reping you and why. You are an interesting person. You join a church that you seem to routinely criticize as if you are a seasoned critic. Sometimes it may be a good idea to see the positive. Take a look at the talks again and see some beauty in them. Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that the GAs who spoke are out to harm people but rather to help them to do well in life and in eternity. And at the end of the day, it isn't so bad.

[Scott Lloyd]

When I want to know the texture of something, I apply a certain amount of pressure with my fingers, and gradually adding more pressure can tell me more about some of its properties. However, it if crumbles under the slightest touch, I may want to rethink its usefulness. Is this iron rod really made of iron, or is it butter (or jello)?

Cecil B. DeMille, legendary filmmaker who directed "The Ten Commandments," said this during a 1957 commencement address at BYU:

 

We cannot break the 10 Commandments, we can only break ourselves against them, or else by keeping them, rise through them to the fulness of freedom under God. God means us to be free. With divine daring, He gave us the power of choice.

 

What DeMille said about the Ten Commandments could be applied more broadly to the word of God, which is symbolized as the iron rod in Lehi's vision to which you allude.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Avatar4321]

Congratulations, VideoGameJunkie! You have been found righteous in the eyes of Scott Lloyd. As it states in scripture, "Do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with thy Lloyd."

Personally, I'd rather be found righteous in the eyes of GOD, although to thy Lloyd its probably all the same.

then listen to His servants and you will.

[Avatar4321]

It is a odd think that many members (disillusioned ones) want new revelation for revelation's sake...as they have "itching ears". While our critics want revelation so they have red meat for anti-Mormons websites. *sigh*

if they really wanted revelations, they would receive their them

[phaedrus ut]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

One of the reasons it seems to be fellow Mormons asking the really difficult questions is that there are very few critics that have been able to stay around on this board.  I've been on this board for 10 years and I participated on the others before now.  I can only think of a few of the moderate critics on this board that have been able to last for a decent period of time.  Everyone else is banned or left.

 

Phaedrus

[Tsuzuki]

Cecil B. DeMille, legendary filmmaker who directed "The Ten Commandments," said this during a 1957 commencement address at BYU:

 

What DeMille said about the Ten Commandments could be applied more broadly to the word of God, which is symbolized as the iron rod in Lehi's vision to which you allude.

Then it would appear that there is no harm in applying selective pressure. You're going to need to anyway, just to hold on. No need to be delicate with that iron.

[mfbukowski]

You may want to cut MN some slack. I suspect that when a person who assumes the apostles get to impose their personal agendas on the Church (despite what God might want) is called out for wishing, rather desperately, that he could do the same, the most logical deflection may be to pretend to a self-effacing humility.

Yep, I shouldn't have replied to him in the first place.  I think you pegged the problem- as a newbie he has not had enough experience to know how the church works.  I was like that at first- it was too good to believe.

[mfbukowski]

I don't know why this is so hard for you guys to understand.

Hang in there, you will.  Or you will leave, one or the other.  I was trying to point out that you had no one agreeing with you on this, because our way of seeing it is quite different than yours- it has nothing to do with rep points.  At some point you will see it, or you won't.

 

This is not a democracy, a political party, a football game, or any of the analogies you have used.  This is different.

 

Good luck to you.  I really do wish you well and I am sorry I have been hard on you.

Edited October 6, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

Then it would appear that there is no harm in applying selective pressure. You're going to need to anyway, just to hold on. No need to be delicate with that iron.

Misapplied metaphor.

 

What you're talking about is not holding on to the iron rod but vainly trying to misshape and misdirect it in the direction of the great and spacious building, or the dreary wilderness, or the strange paths.

[mfbukowski]

There is a distinction between questioning and agitating that many seem to miss. You (insofar as I've been able to observe) have not crossed that line.

That's the line exactly.  Well put.  And we all love VGJ!

[Tsuzuki]

Misapplied metaphor.

 

What you're talking about is not holding on to the iron rod but vainly trying to misshape and misdirect it in the direction of the great and spacious building, or the dreary wilderness, or the strange paths.

What I'm talking about is not being afraid to test the rod. Never be afraid to test anything.

[mfbukowski]

Congratulations, VideoGameJunkie! You have been found righteous in the eyes of Scott Lloyd. As it states in scripture, "Do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with thy Lloyd."

Personally, I'd rather be found righteous in the eyes of GOD, although to thy Lloyd its probably all the same.

Totally unnecessary.

[Scott Lloyd]

What I'm talking about is not being afraid to test the rod. Never be afraid to test anything.

You test the rod by grasping it and proceeding to where it leads you, not by trying to alter its direction or joining the inhabitants of the great and spacious building in crying out against it because its direction is not to your liking.

.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

One of the reasons it seems to be fellow Mormons asking the really difficult questions is that there are very few critics that have been able to stay around on this board.  I've been on this board for 10 years and I participated on the others before now.  I can only think of a few of the moderate critics on this board that have been able to last for a decent period of time.  Everyone else is banned or left.

 

Phaedrus

I think there's truth to this.

 

But my observation is that the critics have been banned because they've shown themselves to be unwilling to or incapable of following the ground rules.

 

I've seen some defenders banned as well, though admittedly not as many.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mormonnewb]

This is not exactly true. Critics of the lds church on this board usually get a loyal following with rep points. So, it is not surprising that you may do well with the rep points. The key is to understand just who may be reping you and why. You are an interesting person. You join a church that you seem to routinely criticize as if you are a seasoned critic. Sometimes it may be a good idea to see the positive. Take a look at the talks again and see some beauty in them. Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that the GAs who spoke are out to harm people but rather to help them to do well in life and in eternity. And at the end of the day, it isn't so bad.

 

As for rep points, I am not a believer that popularity makes right.  In fact, more often than not, it is just the opposite.  

 

And believe it or not, I agree that the Brethren are good men who have our best interests at heart.  I think they are inspired men of God who regularly provide great insights on how to be better disciples, spouses, parents, neighbors, employees, etc.  If I thought they were completely "out to lunch," I wouldn't have joined the Church in the first place.

 

That being said, I don't share the explicit (or implicit) view that they are infallible.  They are MEN, born into a certain time and of a certain culture.  As a result, I SUSPECT that they are just plain wrong on a couple of issues.  On a DISCUSSION BOARD, I find it incredible that this is a unique position.  Of course, I wouldn't expect many others to possess my wit, charm, good looks and modesty, but I didn't think that expressing a contrary opinion on a DISCUSSION BOARD would make me Lucifer incarnate (only much funnier and better looking).  Who knew?

[Tsuzuki]

You test the rod by grasping it and proceeding to where it leads you, not by trying to alter its direction or joining the inhabitants of the great and spacious building in crying out against it because its direction is not to your liking.

.

Blindly following it won't tell me if it's been altered by someone else. I need to know more of its properties.

[mormonnewb]

then listen to His servants and you will.

 

Why don't I just listen to the Holy Spirit?  Or is the Holy Spirit unnecessary now that we have modern-day prophets?

[Tsuzuki]

...but I didn't think that expressing a contrary opinion on a DISCUSSION BOARD would make me Lucifer incarnate...

No, that's me.

[mormonnewb]

That's the line exactly.  Well put.  And we all love VGJ!

 

I love VGJ as well.  Of course, I would not be presumptuous as to ever grant him my "blessing" for his actions on this board.  I have not been placed in that position of authority.  Perhaps, when I'm "promoted" to high priest, I will feel the mantle of such authority.

[Calm]

Their travels put them in direct contact with the world at large; they see with their own eyes the problems that exist. 

From what I have heard reported, the Church has a research department that does a good job surveying members' POV so there is that feedback source as well.

[Calm]

Sometimes it's projected where none is intended, but I wouldn't worry about it either way. Voicing your questions (in whatever way you do best) is the only way they'll get answered (even if the answer is silence or hostility).

Agitation often involves asking questions not for the purpose of getting answers, but to put pressure on others.

 

This is most obvious when questions are repeated without acknowledgment even attempts to answer them.

[Calm]

This is not exactly true. Critics of the lds church on this board usually get a loyal following with rep points….

Also rep points were not given out until a few years ago and many of us were accumulating significant posts counts before then so such percentages doesn't really work for long timers.

[Calm]

I love VGJ as well.  Of course, I would not be presumptuous as to ever grant him my "blessing" for his actions on this board.  I have not been placed in that position of authority.  Perhaps, when I'm "promoted" to high priest, I will feel the mantle of such authority.

VGJ was asking for feedback.  Scott was being kind and gave him some rather than leave him wondering.

 

You imo are being unkind in misconstruing what Scott did.

Edited October 6, 2014 by calmoriah

[mormonnewb]

 

I think the Catholic Church is the one true church. I don't think it has ever hated or made up lies to support the hate. Mormons here similarly think that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church. All that I have said must be understood in that context. Clearly, people will continue to go to churches even if they don't believe the claims about them that I believe for the Catholic Church. Good on such people. They are so much more religious than me I guess. I am not so devout. I won't go. And I think there are a lot of people, both LDS and Catholic, who would still believe in God perhaps, and look for His true church in the next Restoration claim, if both the Catholic and Mormon churches have been guilty of using theological lies to promote their agenda of hatred against innocent people.  

 

But wait!  Hasn't the Catholic Church done EXACTLY THAT -- admitted to using theological lies (errors) to promote an agenda of hatred against innocent people.  According to the source of all truth, Pope John Paul II apologized for a number of wrongs by the Catholic Church.  Here is just a short list.

 

*  The conquest of Mesoamerica by Spain in the name of the Church.

 

*  Catholics' involvement with the African slave trade.

 

*  The Church's role in burnings at the stake and the religious wars that followed the Protestant Reformation.

 

*  The injustices committed against women, the violation of women's rights and for the historical denigration of women.

 

*  The inactivity and silence of many Catholics during the Holocaust.

 

*  For the actions of the Crusader attack on Constantinople in 1204.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

 

Under your line of reasoning, the Pope himself declared the church "untrue."  Of course, I don't believe any such thing.  Like Pope John Paul II, I see a vast distinction between being the one true church and the one perfect church.  I think it's possible to be "true" in the sense of being rightfully ordained of God, and yet still be imperfect.  In fact, I don't think it is possible to be a perfect church because EVERY church is led by people; and my Bible tells me that there was only such perfect person and His name was not Peter, Francis, Martin Luther, Joseph Smith or Thomas Monson.

 

In fact, the idea that a church must be perfect in order to be "true" negates the entire necessity for the atonement.  We can be "true" Christians without being perfect.  So why would our churches have to be perfect to be "true" churches?

 

On a personal note, let me just say that I've come to gain a great deal of respect for you during this thread.  Sure, you're COMPLETELY wrong (well, maybe only 98.6% wrong).  But seriously, I sense that your reticence to accept a true but imperfect church is grounded in a fundamental sense of decency and an abhorrence for the mistreatment of others.  My guess is that it seems inconceivable to you that an organization dedicated to good could do so much harm.  It is only my more cynical nature (and four decades of wretched behavior ... and counting) that allows me to be comfortable with such a paradox.  I suspect that if I was the Christian that you are, I'd have similar difficulties.

 

Your brother-in-Christ,

 

P.S.  The offer to join us still stands.  And in our minds, we are not only "true," but also perfect.

Edited October 6, 2014 by mormonnewb

[mormonnewb]

VGJ was asking for feedback.  Scott was being kind and gave him some rather than leave him wondering.

 

You imo are being unkind in misconstruing what Scott did.

 

I was just trying to be equally kind to VGJ by pointing out that he does not need ANY of our blessings for his doubts/concerns/questions.

 

I will concede that I could have made that point in a more gentle manner, but did you really expect me to be able to pass up the opportunity to use "my Lloyd" in a snarky post?  I simply haven't been Mormon long enough to resist.  Pray for me!