The New Anti-Mormons Are Lds

[Avatar4321]

Why don't I just listen to the Holy Spirit?  Or is the Holy Spirit unnecessary now that we have modern-day prophets?

I fully exhort you to follow the Holy Spirit. Because if you do, you will follow the brethren. Because they teach us the words of Christ by the power of that Holy Spirit. So how can you follow the Spirit except you listen and obey the word of those who speak by His power?

[why me]

As for rep points, I am not a believer that popularity makes right.  In fact, more often than not, it is just the opposite.  

 

And believe it or not, I agree that the Brethren are good men who have our best interests at heart.  I think they are inspired men of God who regularly provide great insights on how to be better disciples, spouses, parents, neighbors, employees, etc.  If I thought they were completely "out to lunch," I wouldn't have joined the Church in the first place.

 

That being said, I don't share the explicit (or implicit) view that they are infallible.  They are MEN, born into a certain time and of a certain culture.  As a result, I SUSPECT that they are just plain wrong on a couple of issues.  On a DISCUSSION BOARD, I find it incredible that this is a unique position.  Of course, I wouldn't expect many others to possess my wit, charm, good looks and modesty, but I didn't think that expressing a contrary opinion on a DISCUSSION BOARD would make me Lucifer incarnate (only much funnier and better looking).  Who knew?

That is not the point. The point is in your posts. They are almost always negative toward the bretheren and toward the lds church. It comes out in your posts. And I think that this is the issue. Also, no one is claiming that the GAs are perfect. In fact just the opposite. They are imperfect as human beings just like the prophets of old. So, all would agree there. However, they do disagree with your criticisms when you give them toward them and the lds church. But at the end of the day, what does it matter? Not much in the realm of things. People are entitled to their own opinions. Just don't be surprised that on a mormon board, you may find opposition.

 

You mentioned rep points in a previous post comparing yourself with Bukowski. If I would begin to post critiquies of the church I would also get rep points from the critics. It comes with the turf.

[mormonnewb]

That is not the point. The point is in your posts. They are almost always negative toward the bretheren and toward the lds church. It comes out in your posts. And I think that this is the issue. Also, no one is claiming that the GAs are perfect. In fact just the opposite. They are imperfect as human beings just like the prophets of old. So, all would agree there. However, they do disagree with your criticisms when you give them toward them and the lds church. But at the end of the day, what does it matter? Not much in the realm of things. People are entitled to their own opinions. Just don't be surprised that on a mormon board, you may find opposition. [emphasis added]

 

 

I'm not surprised nor dismayed.  I'm simply answering the concern of the OP, which did seem somewhat surprised (and maybe even dismayed) that MEMBERS of the Church would be expressing criticisms of the Church on this board.  I'm completely comfortable with the fact that not everyone agrees with me.  In fact, that's why I come here -- to learn from people who see things differently.  And believe it or not, I do learn.

 

Just last week, I started a thread questioning whether the Brethren often received revelation, given the unprecedented revelation they received in June of 1978.  I asked whether they were just "winging it" all of the other times?  Several posters explained that not all revelations manifest themselves in the same way, but just because a revelation may be more "subtle" doesn't make it any less real or discernible.  I accepted these explanations and thanked everyone for the clarification.

 

On other issues, I have been less convinced.

 

And while I understand that I don't express my concerns in the "right" way, you should remember that Mormonese is not my first language.  So try to look past my "accent" and know that I'm only TRYING to be offensive about half of the time. 

[3DOP]

One of the reasons it seems to be fellow Mormons asking the really difficult questions is that there are very few critics that have been able to stay around on this board.  I've been on this board for 10 years and I participated on the others before now.  I can only think of a few of the moderate critics on this board that have been able to last for a decent period of time.  Everyone else is banned or left.

 

Phaedrus

 

It is certain in my mind Phaedrus, that no internet board represents what is happening proportionately in any of our churches. But I think my observation is accurate and significant in that those who identified as LDS didn't used to ask the questions that used to be asked almost exclusively by those outside the Church. I tend to think that it means that rather than become disgusted and leave the church, as perhaps happened more frequently in the past, dissatisfied LDS are perhaps more determined to try to stay than they have been in the past. I would not defend that idea. I am quite prepared to accept anyone's observation that this is exclusively an internet phenomenon.

[mfbukowski]

I love VGJ as well.  Of course, I would not be presumptuous as to ever grant him my "blessing" for his actions on this board.  I have not been placed in that position of authority.  Perhaps, when I'm "promoted" to high priest, I will feel the mantle of such authority.

Remind me not to sneeze around you.  I wouldn't want to cause you anxiety by tempting you to say "Bless you!"

 

And I really don't even know how you got this whole blessing thing out of what was said.  But surprise surprise!

Edited October 6, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I fully exhort you to follow the Holy Spirit. Because if you do, you will follow the brethren. Because they teach us the words of Christ by the power of that Holy Spirit. So how can you follow the Spirit except you listen and obey the word of those who speak by His power?

And of course there is no way one could even know there ARE prophets except by testimony of the Holy Ghost.

[ERayR]

I don't know why this is so hard for you guys to understand. Have you never heard of an armchair quarterback?

Every weekend, MILLIONS of men sit on their couches and shout instructions to the football players and coaches on their TV sets. We all think we know how they should do their jobs. Yet, NONE of us share the delusion that we have the talent to play or coach pro football.

In fact, all during the week, there are radio shows dedicated to what the participants did wrong the previous weekend. The callers debate back and forth, yet no argument is won or lost because the caller is not qualified to play pro football. That defeats the entire purpose of having the show in the first place.

Of course, one could always argue that spending time engaged in such pursuits is futile, but in that case, let he who has the fewest lifetime posts cast the first stone.

Edit: To use a less trivial example, we allow lay jurors to determine issues of medical malpractice. We don't require that any of them be willing to take over the doctor's practice to determine if the doctor should not have left a scalpel inside the patient after surgery.

 

The last I heard God did not govern by arm chair quarterbacking nor is much impressed by polls.

[ERayR]

That being said, I don't share the explicit (or implicit) view that they are infallible.  They are MEN, born into a certain time and of a certain culture.  As a result, I SUSPECT that they are just plain wrong on a couple of issues.  On a DISCUSSION BOARD, I find it incredible that this is a unique position.

 

Perhaps it is because there is much disagreement to what you say, how you say it and the perceived attitude you portray.

[Guest]

Why don't I just listen to the Holy Spirit?  Or is the Holy Spirit unnecessary now that we have modern-day prophets?

It is only because God's leadership in any age that anyone knows of the Holy Ghost and how to feel, listen and receive Him. God still uses men and women who live and speak of their faith, which invites the Spirit. But you can do whatever it is you like...so who is your disagreement with?

[Hamba Tuhan]

Why don't I just listen to the Holy Spirit?  Or is the Holy Spirit unnecessary now that we have modern-day prophets?

 

False dichotomy. As noted on another thread, the Lord has repeatedly made it clear that He withholds Himself from those who reject the servants whom He sends in His name:

 

'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

'Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

'For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[mormonnewb]

False dichotomy. As noted on another thread, the Lord has repeatedly made it clear that He withholds Himself from those who rejects the servants whom He sends in His name:

 

'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

'Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

'For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord'.

So no one on this earth is receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit but faithful members of our Church, who recognize our prophets?

[Hamba Tuhan]

So no one on this earth is receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit but faithful members of our Church, who recognize our prophets?

 

Do you actually practise constructing false dichotomies?

[mormonnewb]

Do you actually practise constructing false dichotomies?

How is that a false dichotomy? Please explain to me WHO other than a Mormon can be receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is withheld from ALL those who don't recognize His prophets?

[teddyaware]

How is that a false dichotomy? Please explain to me WHO other than a Mormon can be receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is withheld from ALL those who don't recognize His prophets?

I tell you what: The why and of how all of this works was very well and thoroughly explained in General Conference, just passed. There is absolutely no need for anyone to be obtuse or ignorant as to how prophetic guidance and personal revelation through the Holy Spirit work together in perfect harmony within the Restored Church of Christ. All one who genuinely wants to know these things needs to do is take some time to read, listen or watch conference again while paying close attention. It's all laid out with cogency and clarity.

Problem is there are some who don't really want to digest the Church's stated positions because knowing the truth robs them of the opportunity to rant and fight on a smoke filled polemical battlefield where confusion is taken advantage of as a tactic. Sadly, even when it comes to sacred things there are those who enjoy ministering strife, laughing maniacally all along the way.

Edited October 7, 2014 by teddyaware

[mormonnewb]

Problem is there are some who don't really want to digest the Church's stated positions because knowing the truth robs them of the opportunity to rant and fight on a smoke filled polemical battlefield where confusion is taken advantage of as a tactic. Sadly, even when it comes to sacred things there are those who enjoy ministering strife, laughing maniacally all along the way.

 

You found me out.  I spend time on this board to further my ignorance of Mormon doctrine.  Sure, I could be using this computer to watch movies on Netflix (or even porn), but those activities would not further my ignorance about Mormonism.  Only being on a board brimming with knowledgeable Mormons could I hope to achieve the ignorance which I so desperately seek.

 

And, by the way, why do I earnestly seek such ignorance?  Because I know that ignorance of truth shields me from its consequences.  That is why I have pulled my children from all of their science classes.  If they can just avoid learning about the law of gravity, then surely, they will be able to fly one day.  Think of all the gas money I'll save not having to drive them to and from school.

 

In all seriousness, if I didn't have any interest in learning more about Mormonism, why would I come here and endure the frustration of dealing with you?

 

So if you know the answer to my question and are inclined to answer it, then please do so.  Otherwise, just ignore the post.  But either way, I am done with explaining myself to you.

[3DOP]

But wait!  Hasn't the Catholic Church done EXACTLY THAT -- admitted to using theological lies (errors) to promote an agenda of hatred against innocent people.  According to the source of all truth, Pope John Paul II apologized for a number of wrongs by the Catholic Church.  Here is just a short list.

 

*  The conquest of Mesoamerica by Spain in the name of the Church.

 

*  Catholics' involvement with the African slave trade.

 

*  The Church's role in burnings at the stake and the religious wars that followed the Protestant Reformation.

 

*  The injustices committed against women, the violation of women's rights and for the historical denigration of women.

 

*  The inactivity and silence of many Catholics during the Holocaust.

 

*  For the actions of the Crusader attack on Constantinople in 1204.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

 

Under your line of reasoning, the Pope himself declared the church "untrue."  Of course, I don't believe any such thing.  Like Pope John Paul II, I see a vast distinction between being the one true church and the one perfect church.  I think it's possible to be "true" in the sense of being rightfully ordained of God, and yet still be imperfect.  In fact, I don't think it is possible to be a perfect church because EVERY church is led by people; and my Bible tells me that there was only such perfect person and His name was not Peter, Francis, Martin Luther, Joseph Smith or Thomas Monson.

 

In fact, the idea that a church must be perfect in order to be "true" negates the entire necessity for the atonement.  We can be "true" Christians without being perfect.  So why would our churches have to be perfect to be "true" churches?

 

On a personal note, let me just say that I've come to gain a great deal of respect for you during this thread.  Sure, you're COMPLETELY wrong (well, maybe only 98.6% wrong).  But seriously, I sense that your reticence to accept a true but imperfect church is grounded in a fundamental sense of decency and an abhorrence for the mistreatment of others.  My guess is that it seems inconceivable to you that an organization dedicated to good could do so much harm.  It is only my more cynical nature (and four decades of wretched behavior ... and counting) that allows me to be comfortable with such a paradox.  I suspect that if I was the Christian that you are, I'd have similar difficulties.

 

Your brother-in-Christ,

 

P.S.  The offer to join us still stands.  And in our minds, we are not only "true," but also perfect.

 

Hi again Mormonnewb.

 

One point at a time.

 

Mormonnewb

But wait!  Hasn't the Catholic Church done EXACTLY THAT -- admitted to using theological lies (errors) to promote an agenda of hatred against innocent people.

 

3DOP

I don't think Pope John Paul II, may he rest in peace, ever accused the Church of falsifying theology to support the actions that wikipedia records that he apologized for. I am more critical than supportive of Pope John Paul II. I put him with the bad/mediocre popes. (Although I must admit that Francis seems to break new ground.) However, I do not admit that he is guilty of saying that the Catholic Church theologically defended the actions he condemned. I am pretty certain that he stopped far short of saying that the Catholic Church deliberately taught that it was good to do the things for which he apologized. Unlike, Pope Francis, John Paul II was a mixed bag. I could wish we were only plagued with a "mixed bag" instead of Pope Francis! (Sorry saemo. Take me to task if you must.)

 

Rather than continue point by point (which I am eager to do)...I will allow you to find data that supports your contention that the Catholic Church has "admitted to using theological lies (errors) to promote an agenda of hatred against innocent people."

 

I guess I am okay apologizing for the evil actions of the people in our churches, although it is very prone to be misunderstood. It means little. The Catholic Church has continuously taught that we are prone to sin. But if it extends to apologizing for theology that supported the evil actions, then either the apology is problematic, or the church is false before God.

 

Your turn if you want to continue the conversation...don't feel obliged...I think that the thread has run its course and all that remains is examination of personal integrity.

Edited October 7, 2014 by 3DOP

[Hamba Tuhan]

How is that a false dichotomy? Please explain to me WHO other than a Mormon can be receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is withheld from ALL those who don't recognize His prophets?

 

'The fallacy of false dichotomy is committed when the arguer claims that his conclusion is one of only two options ...':

1. Either the Saints can reject, disregard, mock, and/or ignore the prophets with impunity, OR
2. Every single person who doesn't recognise the Lord's prophets must be completely devoid of any spiritual communication whatsoever.

'... when in fact there are other possibilities':

1. The Lord primarily sends his servants to those who've already made covenants with Him.
2. It is therefore specifically the rejection of the prophets by the Lord's covenant people that brings down His wrath (and causes Him to withdraw His presence).
3. In any case, rejecting the prophets is a graded process, not an all-or-nothing proposition.
4. Besides which, the Lord sends His Spirit to convict the wicked of their ways and to invite them to repent and come unto Him.
5. Etc.

'The arguer then goes on to show that the "only other option" is clearly outrageous ...':

• 'So no one on this earth is receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit but faithful members of our Church, who recognize our prophets?'

'... and so his preferred conclusion must be embraced'.

• Therefore I, as a covenant-making Saint, can reject, ignore, mock, and/or disregard the prophets with impunity.

By the way, I suspect a rather significant difference exists between merely 'recognising' prophets and actually honouring them. And I think the Lord made His expectations quite clear when he spoke of the desolation that awaited the inhabitants of Jerusalem due to their refusal to bless His duly authorised servants.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[rodheadlee]

 

Then perhaps this is the answer to the question posed by the thread.  Now Anti-Mormons are LDS because so many have not had the witness of the Holy Ghost like you have.  So for them, it becomes a bigger problem.  Just a thought.

 

 

 

I think so and people can lose their witness if they don't cultivate it daily. I think it may be harder for those born in the church to get the initial witness and then keep it. They don't have the trail of darkness behind them to remind them of what it was like to be outside. I used to think it was harder for converts as some of us have some really bad habits to get rid of. Thanks for your posts.

[Tsuzuki]

Agitation often involves asking questions not for the purpose of getting answers, but to put pressure on others.

 

This is most obvious when questions are repeated without acknowledgment even attempts to answer them.

Sometimes the reaction tells you more than the face-value answer, which isn't always the most correct one. If you really want to know something, never be afraid to probe deep. Be like Jacob wrestling the angel.

[mfbukowski]

Do you actually practise constructing false dichotomies?

I think he learns by arguing if his arguments make sense or not.  I think arguing actually helps him refine his questions- they just come blurting out at first, and then get refined through discussion.  It's just his way of communicating.

Edited October 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

How is that a false dichotomy? Please explain to me WHO other than a Mormon can be receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit is withheld from ALL those who don't recognize His prophets?

Everyone can feel the Holy Spirit.  If that was not possible no one could ever get a testimony that this was the church to join?

 

Do all answers agree?  Of course not.

 

Your circumstances are different than mine, which are different from every other person on this planet.  The HG leads us to where WE individually need to be.   For a drunk on skid row, it might be the Salvation Army.  For a cannibal in New Guinea perhaps being Muslim is the best option available which brings him closer to God.

 

Despite all your protestations, somehow doing what you are doing now is exactly what you need to be doing to align your spirit with where God wants you to be.  The HG is guiding you to keep resolving all your questions, and you will never get there if you stop asking them, so here you are with all of us arguing with you, and bit by bit your understanding grows. like it or not. 

[mfbukowski]

I tell you what: The why and of how all of this works was very well and thoroughly explained in General Conference, just passed. There is absolutely no need for anyone to be obtuse or ignorant as to how prophetic guidance and personal revelation through the Holy Spirit work together in perfect harmony within the Restored Church of Christ. All one who genuinely wants to know these things needs to do is take some time to read, listen or watch conference again while paying close attention. It's all laid out with cogency and clarity.

Problem is there are some who don't really want to digest the Church's stated positions because knowing the truth robs them of the opportunity to rant and fight on a smoke filled polemical battlefield where confusion is taken advantage of as a tactic. Sadly, even when it comes to sacred things there are those who enjoy ministering strife, laughing maniacally all along the way.

Yeah but some like me are just ornery cusses who like to argue while they are moving slowing forward kicking and screaming toward the truth. 

[why me]

I'm not surprised nor dismayed.  I'm simply answering the concern of the OP, which did seem somewhat surprised (and maybe even dismayed) that MEMBERS of the Church would be expressing criticisms of the Church on this board.  I'm completely comfortable with the fact that not everyone agrees with me.  In fact, that's why I come here -- to learn from people who see things differently.  And believe it or not, I do learn.

 

Just last week, I started a thread questioning whether the Brethren often received revelation, given the unprecedented revelation they received in June of 1978.  I asked whether they were just "winging it" all of the other times?  Several posters explained that not all revelations manifest themselves in the same way, but just because a revelation may be more "subtle" doesn't make it any less real or discernible.  I accepted these explanations and thanked everyone for the clarification.

 

On other issues, I have been less convinced.

 

And while I understand that I don't express my concerns in the "right" way, you should remember that Mormonese is not my first language.  So try to look past my "accent" and know that I'm only TRYING to be offensive about half of the time. 

It is not my first language either. However, reading your posts with the capital lettered words do convey that you are either stressing your points or shouting out the words. Not good for the reader at all. I am sure that you are learning something. I think that you have gotten a lot of breaks on this board. Someone else would have probably been put on limited. So, I do think that the moderators are giving you some slack. Here is a homework assignment for you: Since you have posting rights, take a step back and see if you can post a positive thread about the lds church....something that people both members who are critical, critics of the lds church and non-critical lds can post on. Lets see what happens.

Edited October 7, 2014 by why me

[saemo]

Hi again Mormonnewb.

 

One point at a time.

 

Mormonnewb

But wait!  Hasn't the Catholic Church done EXACTLY THAT -- admitted to using theological lies (errors) to promote an agenda of hatred against innocent people.

 

3DOP

I don't think Pope John Paul II, may he rest in peace, ever accused the Church of falsifying theology to support the actions that wikipedia records that he apologized for. I am more critical than supportive of Pope John Paul II. I put him with the bad/mediocre popes. (Although I must admit that Francis seems to break new ground.) However, I do not admit that he is guilty of saying that the Catholic Church theologically defended the actions he condemned. I am pretty certain that he stopped far short of saying that the Catholic Church deliberately taught that it was good to do the things for which he apologized. Unlike, Pope Francis, John Paul II was a mixed bag. I could wish we were only plagued with a "mixed bag" instead of Pope Francis! (Sorry saemo. Take me to task if you must.)

 

Rather than continue point by point (which I am eager to do)...I will allow you to find data that supports your contention that the Catholic Church has "admitted to using theological lies (errors) to promote an agenda of hatred against innocent people."

 

I guess I am okay apologizing for the evil actions of the people in our churches, although it is very prone to be misunderstood. It means little. The Catholic Church has continuously taught that we are prone to sin. But if it extends to apologizing for theology that supported the evil actions, then either the apology is problematic, or the church is false before God.

 

Your turn if you want to continue the conversation...don't feel obliged...I think that the thread has run its course and all that remains is examination of personal integrity.

Nah. I don't exist to reprimand. I couldn't make such a declaration myself though. Bad Pope. I prefer to wait and see how God works through people.

[Storm Rider]

I really appreciated hearing during General Conference this past weekend the need to return to a stronger discipleship with and to Christ. Too often we get caught up in the details of doctrine, church, etc. and forget that if our hearts are not single to the glory of God then we are missing the purpose of following the Savior.

 

As I have participated on this thread and read several other current threads I am reminded that we are admonished not to belittle the beliefs of others or the degree of their faith.  Very often I see others attempt to portray LDS beliefs in such a way, but it is the exact opposite of what we actually teach.  Stating that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored church; or that it has the fullness of the gospel does not equate to other churches being wrong.  The reality is that we acknowledge that there is one source of truth in the world and that is God and all truth wherever it is found is from him.  There is much that we can learn from fellow Christians and the devout followers of other religions.  That learning does not take away from the truth of the Church of Jesus Christ one iota, but it actually enhances and adds to it.  

 

I also know of LDS who have joined other churches; I sense in some of them a true discipleship of and to Christ; their new religious home should be appreciated because it works for them.  For whatever reason they have found a home outside of the Church that works better for them today.  Just as I pray for God to guide me I accept that God guides others regardless of religious affiliation or membership.  

 

What does not work is when we find those members and nonmembers who are constantly, as the oxen of old, kicking against the pricks in their respective religious groups.  When discipleship is not increased it either is a situation where repentance is needed or the religious home is not working for the individual.  I suspect that the most consistent, common answer for what is needed is repentance.

 

A disciple of Christ can question, but as one reviews the scriptures it is apparent that the faithful question and yet still listen.  I think of the example of Mother Theresa who for many years felt that the heavens were closed to her, but she never failed in her service to others in her capacity as a Religious and as Jesus' disciple.  Nephi also felt the extended sting of trials and tribulations and did not falter, but continued to follow with a broken heart and contrite spirit after the Father to fulfill his will.

 

Yes, questioning is allowed and expected, but there is a positive way that helps build one's faith and the alternative that destroys or weakens one's faith.  The issue is how do I reflect Christ in my words and actions as a disciple with a question?  If there is no reflection of Christ or if it is dimly reflected then there is a better way that needs to be sought. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Storm Rider