The New Anti-Mormons Are Lds

[saemo]

Seek first God's Kingdom, and God's Justice, and all the rest will be given to you.

 

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was, is now, and ever shall be. Amen.

[Guest]

I love VGJ as well.  Of course, I would not be presumptuous as to ever grant him my "blessing" for his actions on this board.  I have not been placed in that position of authority.  Perhaps, when I'm "promoted" to high priest, I will feel the mantle of such authority.

Except there are no promotions in the Priesthood...so if you don't know know

[stemelbow]

Suspicion seems heavy in the Church. Everyone seems quick to want to point out a wolf in sheep's clothing. I guess it's fun or cool to be able to call someone out before any one else does. Some people who leave the Church do so noisily. Looking back and pointing out the "problems" with the Church. Many members want to identify and call out those who are going down that path, for some reason. So questions, issues, discussions, aren't good for many LDS, I've noticed. To discuss, to question, to point out different ideas, to criticize is, in some LDS folks' minds, signs of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Such things identifies those who are on the highway to apostasy and perhaps there is something it. That's why I ask, Lord, is it I?

The mote-beam problem arises in all of this. Perhaps the questioners, aren't anti at all.

[Storm Rider]

Suspicion seems heavy in the Church. Everyone seems quick to want to point out a wolf in sheep's clothing. I guess it's fun or cool to be able to call someone out before any one else does. Some people who leave the Church do so noisily. Looking back and pointing out the "problems" with the Church. Many members want to identify and call out those who are going down that path, for some reason. So questions, issues, discussions, aren't good for many LDS, I've noticed. To discuss, to question, to point out different ideas, to criticize is, in some LDS folks' minds, signs of a wolf in sheep's clothing. Such things identifies those who are on the highway to apostasy and perhaps there is something it. That's why I ask, Lord, is it I?

The mote-beam problem arises in all of this. Perhaps the questioners, aren't anti at all.

 

If the shoe fits wear it.  I don't buy that assumption that everyone is innocent.  To me the process, the manner, the spirit of the questioner is what has weight.  If the shoe does not fit; it does not apply.  However, I am fully aware that there are wolves in sheep's clothing and always have been.  Some choose to serve God and some choose to serve Mammon.  That is not a mote and beam issue; that is who are you serving?  

Edited October 9, 2014 by Storm Rider

[why me]

Suspicion seems heavy in the Church. Everyone seems quick to want to point out a wolf in sheep's clothing. I guess it's fun or cool to be able to call someone out before any one else does.

I don't think that there is suspicion in the church at all. But there may be suspicion on the internet. Of course, we all must take posters at face value. But we can never know if we are getting our chain pulled by a poster who uses a screen name. So, maybe certain members are suspicious with other posters who claim to be active and yet, post quite many negative posts about the lds church.But as a church body with people we meet face to face, I see no suspicion at all. And certainly, the GAs are seeing a problem as we have seen on this board. Rationalism and relativism are ripe in the outside world and these concepts can seep iinto the beliefs and actions of members. But the concern is more for their soul than for the church.

[why me]

Seek first God's Kingdom, and God's Justice, and all the rest will be given to you.

 

Glory be to the FIather, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was, is now, and ever shall be. Amen.

And save me from the fires of hell.

 

I  think that this prayer that you have posted above is needed for the catholic church this  week as the synod meets to discuss church polices and understandings. Lets hope for peace between the conservative and liberal wing of the church and that pope francis can bring unity to the two factions. And hopefully, if any change does come it will bring peace to catholics everywhere.

Edited October 7, 2014 by why me

[mfbukowski]

Except there are no promotions in the Priesthood...so if you don't know know

[Hamilton Porter]

It used to be, not that long ago, that so-called anti-Mormons were the only ones who asked the questions on this board that self-professed Mormons are asking today.

Some of you remember and participated in answering the non-LDS anti-Mormons who used to frequent this board and ZLMB before it, with gusto and sound reason. But it is almost as thought they slipped into your own camp and are identifying themselves as LDS. Your own people are asking about and complaining of the same lame stuff that has been answered satisfactorily many times. As a non-LDS who has been around LDS sites for almost as long as there have been sites, it bewilders me how distrustful and disrespectful supposedly devout Latter-day Saints now seem to feel about the leadership of those who they say are the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

It seems like a sea-change to me. That is because it seems like you used to do such a good job of answering your critics. But now that your critics are Mormon...It leaves me bewildered and in a way dismayed, to see Mormons doubtful and critical of Mormonism for all the wrong reasons.

 

Rory

 

Michael Quinn would not be excommunicated today. Probably not even the Toscanos.

[Boanerges]

Michael Quinn would not be excommunicated today. Probably not even the Toscanos.

 

I agree, Hambino, and if Toscano would stop his personal attacks on GAs he could be a member in very good standing today. I understand his anger, resentment, etc., but he needs to let go of the personal stuff. Just my opinion.

[stemelbow]

If the shoe fits wear it.  I don't buy that assumption that everyone is innocent.  To me the process, the manner, the spirit of the questioner is what has weight.  If the shoe does not fit; it does not apply.  However, I am fully aware that there are wolves in sheep's clothing and always have been.  Some choose to serve God and some choose to serve Mammon.  That is not a mote and bean issue; that is who are you serving?

And we ask, is it I, Lord? The problem is we don't even know if we are wolves in sheep's clothing or not.

[HappyJackWagon]

If the shoe fits wear it.  I don't buy that assumption that everyone is innocent.  To me the process, the manner, the spirit of the questioner is what has weight.  If the shoe does not fit; it does not apply.  However, I am fully aware that there are wolves in sheep's clothing and always have been.  Some choose to serve God and some choose to serve Mammon.  That is not a mote and bean issue; that is who are you serving?  

The problem is that it is generally assumed that anyone who does not believe is a wolf because there's no real model in the church for thinking otherwise. It's unconventional and near heretical to give a doubter the benefit of the doubt and not assume they are sinning, not earnestly seeking, not exercising faith etc. It does not seem to be an option in the church that good, faithful, righteous, intelligent people can simply disagree and not believe so the non-believer is on the defensive trying to prove to family and friends that he's not suddenly a wolf.

[teddyaware]

The problem is that it is generally assumed that anyone who does not believe is a wolf because there's no real model in the church for thinking otherwise. It's unconventional and near heretical to give a doubter the benefit of the doubt and not assume they are sinning, not earnestly seeking, not exercising faith etc. It does not seem to be an option in the church that good, faithful, righteous, intelligent people can simply disagree and not believe so the non-believer is on the defensive trying to prove to family and friends that he's not suddenly a wolf.

So who should the faithful Latter-day Saints believe, you or their apostolic leaders who just consistently contradicted this kind of thinking in General Conference? Why should any logical-thinking Latter-day Saint think a model of partial belief and halfhearted obedience to the living Apostles and Prophets is a good model to admire and emulate?

Nevertheless, the model you speak of does have its positives. It's surely better for one to remain somewhat active in the Church, and believe at least some of what it teaches, rather than throw the whole thing away and join the ranks of the bitter former members. So your "model" does have its positive side. But ideally, said model should only serve as a temporary way station on the way to fuller conversion.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

So who should the faithful Latter-day Saints believe, you or their apostolic leaders who just consistently contradicted this kind of thinking in General Conference?

People should adhere to what they believe is right.

 

I certainly don't oppose people following the prophet. They should. What I'm opposed to is the Us versus Them mentality that is pervasive in the church.

[Avatar4321]

W

People should adhere to what they believe is right.

 

I certainly don't oppose people following the prophet. They should. What I'm opposed to is the Us versus Them mentality that is pervasive in the church.

then unite with us

[Boanerges]

So who should the faithful Latter-day Saints believe, you or their apostolic leaders who just consistently contradicted this kind of thinking in General Conference?

 Maybe it wasn't so consistently contradicted as you think. From Elder Ballard's talk about the Good Ship Zion:

"Others may focus on the questions and doubts they experience. Of course, having questions and experiencing doubts are not incongruent with dedicated discipleship. Recently, the Council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles stated: “We understand that from time to time Church members will have questions about Church doctrine, history, or practice. Members are always free to ask such questions and earnestly seek greater understanding.

Remember, Joseph Smith himself had questions that began the Restoration. He was a seeker and, like Abraham, found the answers to life’s most important questions." (emphasis added)

 

There was at least one other one I don't have time to find at the moment.

[JLHPROF]

Michael Quinn would not be excommunicated today. Probably not even the Toscanos.

 

Quinn of that time might not be excommunicated, but Quinn who had written what he has since excommunication would certainly have been.

[teddyaware]

Maybe it wasn't so consistently contradicted as you think. From Elder Ballard's talk about the Good Ship Zion:

"Others may focus on the questions and doubts they experience. Of course, having questions and experiencing doubts are not incongruent with dedicated discipleship. Recently, the Council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles stated: “We understand that from time to time Church members will have questions about Church doctrine, history, or practice. Members are always free to ask such questions and earnestly seek greater understanding.

Remember, Joseph Smith himself had questions that began the Restoration. He was a seeker and, like Abraham, found the answers to life’s most important questions." (emphasis added)

 

There was at least one other one I don't have time to find at the moment.

There's a big difference between those faithful members who have questions but yet continue with a fixed determination to remain on the good ship Zion, all the while "holding on with both hands" (Elder Ballard's words), as compared to those who also have questions but are not holding onto the ship with both hands, while publicly proclaiming their doubt in the skill and wisdom of those who stand at the helm.

If we're going to quote from Elder Ballard's address, especially in this case, we need to be balanced in the presentation of his thoughts.

The following quotes are also from Elder Ballard's address:

"Recently, I spoke at the new mission presidents’ seminar and counseled these leaders: keep the eyes of the mission on the leaders of the Church. … We will not and … cannot lead [you] astray."

and,

"And as you teach your missionaries to focus their eyes on us (the Prophets), teach them to never follow those who think they know more about how to administer the affairs of the Church than … Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ do through the priesthood leaders who have the keys to preside."

and,

“I have discovered in my ministry that those who have become lost [and] confused are typically those who have most often … forgotten that when the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve speak with a united voice, it is the voice of the Lord for that time. The Lord reminds us, ‘Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same’ [D&C 1:38].”

and,

"Our local Church leaders, like seasoned river guides, have been tutored by life’s experiences; have been trained and mentored by apostles and prophets and other officers of the Church; and, most important, have been tutored by the Lord Himself."

Edited October 8, 2014 by teddyaware

[mormonnewb]

There's a big difference between those faithful members who have questions but yet continue with a fixed determination to remain on the good ship Zion, all the while "holding on with both hands" (Elder Ballard's words), as compared to those who also have questions but are not holding onto the ship with both hands, while publicly proclaiming their doubt in the skill and wisdom of those who stand at the helm.

If we're going to quote from Elder Ballard's address, especially in this case, we need to be balanced in the presentation of his thoughts.

The following quotes are also from Elder Ballard's address:

"Recently, I spoke at the new mission presidents’ seminar and counseled these leaders: keep the eyes of the mission on the leaders of the Church. … We will not and … cannot lead [you] astray."

...

"Keep the eyes on the mission on the leaders of the Church." I've always thought the point was to be a CHRISTian -- a disciple of Christ. I would think that my job would be to keep my eyes on Him. Silly me!

Seriously, this seems strange to me because I imagine that most of you received a spiritual witness assuring you that the Church leaders were prophets of God.  Okay.  That makes sense, except for the part when the Holy Spirit seems to have also said, "Oh yeah, and from now on, you no longer need to check back with me about anything, just follow the prophets from here on out."

 

As I understand it, if we get a different answer from the prophets, then we can throw out our spiritual witness as being invalid. So while our spiritual witness was valid to point to the prophets as leaders, it can no longer be relied upon as an indicator of truth?  Wow!

Edited October 9, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Hamba Tuhan]

None of that seems a little cultish to you, huh?

 

... I've always thought the point was to be a CHRISTian -- a disciple of Christ. I would think that my job would be to keep my eyes on Him. Silly me!

 

Cultish? Not unless you consider the New Testament teachings of the Saviour cultish.

 

You seem to want to disentangle attitudes towards the Lord's authorised servants and attitudes towards the Lord Himself, but Christ repeatedly made it clear that there is a direct and causal link between the two.

 

When he called and commissioned the Twelve: 'He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me'.

 

Even clearer language when he called and commissioned the Seventy: 'He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me'.

 

And for anyone who prefers a more 'graphic' illustration of how dishonouring the prophets is ultimately an expression of our lack of reverence for the Father, the Saviour's words specifically to those who questioned the authority of those sent to them:

 

Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

 

And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

 

And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

 

Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

 

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

 

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

 

And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

"Keep the eyes on the mission on the leaders of the Church." I've always thought the point was to be a CHRISTian -- a disciple of Christ. I would think that my job would be to keep my eyes on Him. Silly me!

Seriously, this seems strange to me because I imagine that most of you received a spiritual witness assuring you that the Church leaders were prophets of God.  Okay.  That makes sense, except for the part when the Holy Spirit seems to have also said, "Oh yeah, and from now on, you no longer need to check back with me about anything, just follow the prophets from here on out."

 

As I understand it, if we get a different answer from the prophets, then we can throw out our spiritual witness as being invalid. So while our spiritual witness was valid to point to the prophets as leaders, it can no longer be relied upon as an indicator of truth?  Wow!

That's utterly ridiculous.

We are to get our own testimonies of every principle. One must always trust your gut. That is what the spirit is using language you will understand.

Trust your gut. Nothing or nobody else. The spirit is your gut.

[teddyaware]

"Keep the eyes on the mission on the leaders of the Church." I've always thought the point was to be a CHRISTian -- a disciple of Christ. I would think that my job would be to keep my eyes on Him. Silly me!

Seriously, this seems strange to me because I imagine that most of you received a spiritual witness assuring you that the Church leaders were prophets of God.  Okay.  That makes sense, except for the part when the Holy Spirit seems to have also said, "Oh yeah, and from now on, you no longer need to check back with me about anything, just follow the prophets from here on out."

 

As I understand it, if we get a different answer from the prophets, then we can throw out our spiritual witness as being invalid. So while our spiritual witness was valid to point to the prophets as leaders, it can no longer be relied upon as an indicator of truth?  Wow!

I tell you what, perhaps the time has come to concentrate on intensive scripture study rather than running to and fro for answers on discussion boards. All you're fretting over is basic stuff that should pose no problem at all as long as there is a good grounding in the Standard Works and General Conference addresses.

As far as your question is concerned, its quite simple: First, we're led and guided by the Father and the Son through the revelatory manifestations of the Holy Ghost given to us personally. And just like the ancient apostolic era Church of Christ, we're also led and guided by living Prophets and Apostles of God. What's new here? This is basic stuff!

So Elder Ballard says the missionaries should keep their eyes on the living Apostles and Prophets, and in the same address (just given) he also says that, even more importantly, we should keep our eyes on the Father and the Son. There's a balance here, the same kind of balance that existed in the apostolic Church.

Was Paul in error when He said, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ:" or when he said, "Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me:" or when He said, "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample-? Of course not! While Paul implored the members of the Church to follow him, as well as the other Apostles and Prophets, he also encouraged the members of the Church to seek personal revelation and divine power by going directly to God Himself for these blessings...

 

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

 

Why in your mind does it have to be an either or proposition? We follow the Father and the Son, and go directly to them for knowledge and power; and we follow living prophets who were given to the Church as an additional and formidable bulwark of divine strength against the wiles and weapons of the adversary.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Eph 4)

 

Once gain, this is all basic stuff. Why do these basic doctrines trouble so?

Edited October 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[why me]

"Keep the eyes on the mission on the leaders of the Church." I've always thought the point was to be a CHRISTian -- a disciple of Christ. I would think that my job would be to keep my eyes on Him. Silly me!

 

I think that you are wrong on this one.  Even at the time of Paul, the saints were receiving letters from him. Paul was guiding the saints, helping them to remain faithful. The early church had their eyes on the leaders of the church. And yes, also on christ. And when the saints were straying, paul was writing letters redirecting them to be christlike. I don't remember the early saints saying: okay paul....but we prayed about it and decided that you are wrong. Now of course some did and left the fold. But the faithful saints carried on.

 

So, maybe you are being silly.

Edited October 9, 2014 by why me

[Boanerges]

There's a big difference between those faithful members who have questions but yet continue with a fixed determination to remain on the good ship Zion, all the while "holding on with both hands" (Elder Ballard's words), as compared to those who also have questions but are not holding onto the ship with both hands, while publicly proclaiming their doubt in the skill and wisdom of those who stand at the helm.

I agree that there certainly is a difference. I maintain that the vast majority of those with questions and doubts are active members who are trying to find their way. Many who have such questions never voice them at all, and others only voice them anonymously on forums like these. There are indeed those that make a public spectacle of themselves, just as some ex-Mormons do (while other ex-Mormons just go quietly). However, you seem to assert that ALL who have questions or doubt are anti. Having worked with many who question and having an assignment from the stake president to do so, I can bear witness that such is not the case. Almost all who I have interacted with (and I don't put a great deal of effort into the vociferous ones, they are mostly on their way out anyway) want to believe and want to be part of the church in some capacity. If I am to believe my stake president, and I do, the brethren are very aware that many who question are active contributing members - even bishops and stake presidents.

 

Just as an aside here, the way this works in my stake is that I don't seek them out, they seek me out, and I encourage them to do so privately if that suits them. We started out going to them but find it far more effective when they make the first move.

 

There's going to be a great talk to those who question in our upcoming stake conference. If you were to come with an open mind and open heart you might learn something.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Boanerges

[Boanerges]

I think that you are wrong on this one.  Even at the time of Paul, the saints were receiving letters from him. Paul was guiding the saints, helping them to remain faithful. The early church had their eyes on the leaders of the church. And yes, also on christ. And when the saints were straying, paul was writing letters redirecting them to be christlike. I don't remember the early saints saying: okay paul....but we prayed about it and decided that you are wrong. Now of course some did and left the fold. But the faithful saints carried on.

 

So, maybe you are being silly.

I did find it interesting that after two talks in GC on following the prophet that the prophet told us to follow the Savior. Just sayin'

[teddyaware]

I agree that there certainly is a difference. I maintain that the vast majority of those with questions and doubts are active members who are trying to find their way. Many who have such questions never voice them at all, and others only voice them anonymously on forums like these. There are indeed those that make a public spectacle of themselves, just as some ex-Mormons do (while other ex-Mormons just go quietly). However, you seem to assert that ALL who have questions or doubt are anti. Having worked with many who question and having an assignment from the stake president to do so, I can bear witness that such is not the case. Almost all who I have interacted with (and I don't put a great deal of effort into the vociferous ones, they are mostly on their way out anyway) want to believe and want to be part of the church in some capacity. If I am to believe my stake president, and I do, the brethren are very aware that many who question are active contributing members - even bishops and stake presidents.

 

Just as an aside here, the way this works in my stake is that I don't seek them out, they seek me out, and I encourage them to do so privately if that suits them. We started out going to them but find it far more effective when they make the first move.

 

There's going to be a great talk to those who question in our upcoming stake conference. If you were to come with an open mind and open heart you might learn something.

I'm perplexed. In my post I said there are basically two kinds of members with questions: 1) Those who have serious questions but in faith still manage to "hold on with both hands," and then 2) the members with serious questions who aren't hanging on with both hands. So in my post I clearly spoke of a category of members with serious questions who aren't anti. Then in your post you said "I agree that there certainly is a difference." So, as anyone can plainly see, it's obvious I don't think all members with questions are anti. So what made you think I believe all members with questions are anti when I just got done saying that's not true?

Now for the sake of accuracy, there is a sub group (no doubt the group of which you're speaking) who have serious cases of shaken faith syndrome but aren't bitter and still want to believe. It's only logical that this third category consisting of  the shaken who still want to believe would exist because the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are so wonderful, and place God in such a positive, loving and merciful light that it's hard to cast these teachings aside as things of naught.

 

Further, there is no doubt in my mind but that God knew this internet information age would come and that many of the sheltered members would have crises of faith (I am not one of these sheltered members because I knew about all the "stuff" right after I joined the Church more than forty four years ago, after reading anti-Mormon books). I say He knew this era of shaken faith would come and allowed things to evolve in such a way that it would happen because God is always about the business of testing the faith of His people...

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (1 Peter 1)

So we are now living in the age of the Restoration when the white-hot refiner's fire is trying testimonies in order to determine who will rely on and trust in the voice of the Spirit and, conversely, who will succumb to the faith destroying voices of the fallen world. But of one thing I'm certain, there are many of those who have left the Church as a consequence of shaken faith syndrome, including some of the bitterest ones, who will eventually come back to the fold of God as they continue to observe the unfolding miracle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They will watch with great interest as the good ship Zion ably and successfully sails the increasingly treacherous waters of the latter-days. When they see that nothing the adversary can throw at the Church will bring it down, and when they behold the great glory of God descend upon those who have kept the faith, in spite of the greatest of challenges, they will reconsider and join with us again -- this time with powerfully renewed testimonies, like those of Mosiah's sons, that will never again be shaken.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. (1 Nephi 14)

I think it's a great thing that you're working with those who are doubting and I hope you'll keep it up. Your compassion and empathy will be rewarded.

Edited October 9, 2014 by teddyaware