The New Anti-Mormons Are Lds

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The mormon way used to be simple. It was not really up for discussion. Listen to the prophets, obey the commandments of god, fellowship the saints, and do service with love at the center of it. The mormon way had nothing to do with criticizing the leaders and adopt postmodern understandings about what exactly equality is or how the church shoud be.

And that was the problem... you stifle discussion, and when information becomes more readily available, the mud hits the fan.

I don't sit around and constantly criticize the LDS Church or it's leaders, but I also have my own ideas on scripture and doctrine that places me in a clearly heretical field outside of the "mainstream" of pretty much any Restoration church. I consider my walk a "Mormon-Way", and I am happy with that and don't expect people to think or believe my "Mormon-Way" is the only "Mormon-Way".

[Ahab]

The mormon way used to be simple. It was not really up for discussion. Listen to the prophets, obey the commandments of god, fellowship the saints, and do service with love at the center of it. The mormon way had nothing to do with criticizing the leaders and adopt postmodern understandings about what exactly equality is or how the church shoud be.

It also included, and still includes, the teaching that we should be following God and getting our understanding/assurances/faith/knowledge from him, personally.

I don't think the anti-"the best way" minded people really get that or they would just stop trying to get us to listen to them as if we should accept what they tell us and do what they do when their way is not the same as God's way.

[why me]

I don't sit around and constantly criticize the LDS Church or it's leaders, but I also have my own ideas on scripture and doctrine that places me in a clearly heretical field outside of the "mainstream" of pretty much any Restoration church. I consider my walk a "Mormon-Way", and I am happy with that and don't expect people to think or believe my "Mormon-Way" is the only "Mormon-Way".

You are right. Today, we have many mormon ways with each following their own mormon way. This is a postmodern way of looking at it when there is no true way just a series of fragmented ways with  each claiming to be the mormon way to achieve happiness. I see nothing wrong with this. It is just the way it is now.

[HappyJackWagon]

No, because I have been and can still get confirmation from God as I go along that I am understanding the Mormon/best way correctly. So my understanding is God's understanding, as far as I know and get understanding from God.

Sweet!!

Time to put out your own prophetic shingle.

[why me]

It also included, and still includes, the teaching that we should be following God and getting our understanding/assurances/faith/knowledge from him, personally.

I don't think the anti-"the best way" minded people really get that or they would just stop trying to get us to listen to them as if we should accept what they tell us and do what they do when their way is not the same as God's way.

In the past, mormons believed that their church had a wonderful narrative of truth. And those who were active attempted to live that narrative. I don't remember that the church ever taught that the mormon way is whatever it means to each individual as they attempt to find happiness. The  church is a collective enterprise to do life. It cannot be an organization where each members lives his or her own mormon way.

[Ahab]

You are right. Today, we have many mormon ways with each following their own mormon way. This is a postmodern way of looking at it when there is no true way just a series of fragmented ways with each claiming to be the mormon way to achieve happiness. I see nothing wrong with this. It is just the way it is now.

What's wrong with that is that there is a true way, even when the true way is considered in segments without realizing they all connect together as parts of the true way.

[Ahab]

Sweet!!

Time to put out your own prophetic shingle.

All adherents to the Mormon way are prophets, or prophetesses. We can claim that title when we get our first revelation from God.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

You are right. Today, we have many mormon ways with each following their own mormon way. This is a postmodern way of looking at it when there is no true way just a series of fragmented ways with  each claiming to be the mormon way to achieve happiness. I see nothing wrong with this. It is just the way it is now.

 

A simple exercise that I would encourage people to do is the read the Book of Mormon looking for the parts specifically addressing salvation... what it is, how it is achieved.

You will find it is much simpler then possibly imagined and involves faith, repentance, and baptism. These ideas we have come up with beyond that are fine and dandy, and fun to contemplate, but do not salvation make. In fact, Yahshua issues a warning about adding conditions to salvation that He never put into place...

3 Nephi 11:31-40

Edited October 3, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[HappyJackWagon]

 

The  church is a collective enterprise to do life. It cannot be an organization where each members lives his or her own mormon way.

 

Not true. There is no Mormon Creed we must adhere to. Is there an official doctrine about evolution? No. Is there an official revelation about the literal age of the earth? No. Is there a revelation revealing Christ's B-day as April 6? No. The list could go on and on. The point is, there is room to think and believe differently in many different things. The problems arise when one person or group tries to impose their understanding and belief on others. It's when some label others as heretics, apostates or anti's because they have different answers to these non-credal issues. There is so much we don't know in the church and it is scary when certain people think they have all truth. It's just not possible.

[HappyJackWagon]

All adherents to the Mormon way are prophets, or prophetesses. We can claim that title when we get our first revelation from God.

I would put out my own prophetic shingle except I realize my way is not the only way. I am not delusional enough to think people should follow me and my way.

[Scott Lloyd]

All adherents to the Mormon way are prophets, or prophetesses. We can claim that title when we get our first revelation from God.

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy -- Revelation 19:10

 

Would that all God's people were prophets, and that he would put his spirit upon all of them -- Moses in Numbers 11:29

[Scott Lloyd]

I would put out my own prophetic shingle except I realize my way is not the only way. I am not delusional enough to think people should follow me and my way.

Good, because you don't have the right to receive revelation governing others, except as it may be necessary in your lawful calling or stewardship. Only the president of the Church may receive revelation appertaining to the Church as a whole.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

HappyJackWagon, on 03 Oct 2014 - 4:41 PM, said:

I would put out my own prophetic shingle except I realize my way is not the only way. I am not delusional enough to think people should follow me and my way.

Scott Loyd:

Good, because you don't have the right to receive revelation governing others, except as it may be necessary in your lawful calling or stewardship. Only the president of the Church may receive revelation appertaining to the Church as a whole.

 

My point exactly. That is what I'm trying to get across to Ahab.

[Scott Lloyd]

My point exactly. That is what I'm trying to get across to Ahab.

I'm guessing Ahab understands that already, but he'll have to speak for himself.

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm guessing Ahab understands that already, but he'll have to speak for himself.

If he does, it's not evident by his posts about his view of the right way, being god's way and the Mormon way, and others who don't accept his way are anti-mormon.

[Scott Lloyd]

If he does, it's not evident by his posts about his view of the right way, being god's way and the Mormon way, and others who don't accept his way are anti-mormon.

I think it's reasonable to expect that within the Church of Jesus Christ there be some standard of orthodoxy, some uniformity in doctrine, some expectation of behavioral conformity, some degree of top-down administration. This is, after all, Mormonism, not Unitarianism.

 

I've been doing some reading lately on Community of Christ, and I can't help but wonder whether some folks who profess affiliation with us might feel more at home in that faith group.

[Avatar4321]

All adherents to the Mormon way are prophets, or prophetesses. We can claim that title when we get our first revelation from God.

few seem to realize that

[Ahab]

I'm guessing Ahab understands that already, but he'll have to speak for himself.

You did fine. Would to God that all men understood me as well as you did.

[Ahab]

If he does, it's not evident by his posts about his view of the right way, being god's way and the Mormon way, and others who don't accept his way are anti-mormon.

The key point is that God's way is the best way and the Mormon way and that I know what that way is, and that you and anyone else can know what that way is too as you learn directly from God and others who know God's way as well if not better than I do. Edited October 3, 2014 by Ahab

[3DOP]

To everybody:

 

Back in the day, faithful Mormons understood the gravity of the accusations when they came from non-Mormons. So did the non-Mormons. Everybody knew that if these charges were true, the LDS Church wasn't. Today, its like its okay for the Church to have been racist, homophobic, and against women. Some of you seem naive. Do you think nobody is going to beat you over the head with this stuff if you admit guilty as charged?

 

Can you imagine being an idealistic young fellow, a missionary, going out in your dress shirt and tie explaining to people about how bad the Church used to be compared to how it is now that you have all finally conformed to the world? If you guys go the directions being suggested, almost everybody that despises the Church now will continue to hate it, and I think you will lose your young. Those Mormons among you who have become skeptics obviously have an attachment to Mormonism that is important to you. There is something you have absorbed and want to retain. Understood. That is not anti-Mormon.

 

What about converts? Who would get baptized into a church that only in the 21st Century made amends for grievous mistakes? The Restoration? The Restoration only maintained the same prejudices adopted from the Apostates? I guess you "cultural Mormons" (if I may use the expression for those who no longer believe but want to save the church anyway) don't worry about stuff like that. We have the same crowd in the Catholic Church. But if we have been so wrong all the way from the beginning, I lose MY faith. How could I believe anymore? How could we make our acts of faith anymore?: "O my God, I firmly believe whatsoever the holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church requires me to believe; I believe it because thou hast revealed it to her, thou who art the very truth."  

 

Cultural Catholics and Mormons are only trying to preserve a remnant of something that they love but don't believe. With respect to a particular form of partial preservation, they are not anti-Mormons or anti-Catholics. But such a "preservation" kills the deep rooted attachment that many faithful have to saints of ages past and family of recent past who we try to emulate, and expect to greet if we make it to the heavenly home. Some of us want to live and believe as they did. You "culturals", while this is not necessarily your intent, would rip the beating heart out of a living body of believers if you got your changes. And what for the next generation? When you cultural change makers are gone...What follows? Will your children feel the thrill of changing a nasty church into something half-way presentable to the public? Or will it be the sterilization of the seed of faith that ordinarily bears fruit in our kids? I suggest that our children would explain to each other how their backward parents had this weird attachment to that Mormon or Catholic Church, even after they admitted all the bad stuff that had gone on in it for so long. They'd think it was loony. Hopefully, they will have sympathy for their parents. But I cannot imagine how they are going to have ANY attachment to such a religious fiasco as Mormon and Catholic churches that have been wrong, and sometimes maliciously so, until 2014 and later. 

 

Sincerely,

 

Rory

Edited October 4, 2014 by 3DOP

[Brian 2.0]

The key point is that God's way is the best way and the Mormon way and that I know what that way is, and that you and anyone else can know what that way is too as you learn directly from God and others who know God's way as well if not better than I do.

If it were only that easy and people who sought after God's way didn't come up with different results from each other.

[katherine the great]

The hubris is astonishing. If people oppose what you believe is the best way then you see them as anti-Mormon.

Sadly, this kind of arrogance is common in the church which is why people need to stand up against it, not because they are anti-mormon but because they are anti-pride and anti-judgementalism. People need to be protected from this kind of unchristlike judgement.

Insert snark- My best way, which I call the Mormon way, is for people not to presume to speak for a church they have no authority to speak for or lable people as bad, or anti, or apostate because they don't agree. If people don't follow my best way, my Mormon way, then they are anti-mormon. End Snark.

Ahab, seriously brother, you must see how ridiculous that is. Right?

As long as he doesn't mind being called anti Catholic, anti science, anti Lutheran, anti Methodist, anti Presbyterian, anti female, anti Peace corps, anti Baptist, anti anything and everything but LDS then I guess I can follow his logic.

[Yirgacheffe]

To everybody:

 

Back in the day, faithful Mormons understood the gravity of the accusations when they came from non-Mormons. So did the non-Mormons. Everybody knew that if these charges were true, the LDS Church wasn't. Today, its like its okay for the Church to have been racist, homophobic, and against women. Some of you seem naive. Do you think nobody is going to beat you over the head with this stuff if you admit guilty as charged?

 

Can you imagine being an idealistic young fellow, a missionary, going out in your dress shirt and tie explaining to people about how bad the Church used to be compared to how it is now that you have all finally conformed to the world? If you guys go the directions being suggested, almost everybody that despises the Church now will continue to hate it, and I think you will lose your young. Those Mormons among you who have become skeptics obviously have an attachment to Mormonism that is important to you. There is something you have absorbed and want to retain. Understood. That is not anti-Mormon.

 

What about converts? Who would get baptized into a church that only in the 21st Century made amends for grievous mistakes? The Restoration? The Restoration only maintained the same prejudices adopted from the Apostates? I guess you "cultural Mormons" (if I may use the expression for those who no longer believe but want to save the church anyway) don't worry about stuff like that. We have the same crowd in the Catholic Church. But if we have been so wrong all the way from the beginning, I lose MY faith. How could I believe anymore? How could we make our acts of faith anymore?: "O my God, I firmly believe whatsoever the holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church requires me to believe; I believe it because thou hast revealed it to her, thou who art the very truth."  

 

Cultural Catholics and Mormons are only trying to preserve a remnant of something that they love but don't believe. With respect to a particular form of partial preservation, they are not anti-Mormons or anti-Catholics. But such a "preservation" kills the deep rooted attachment that many faithful have to saints of ages past and family of recent past who we try to emulate, and expect to greet if we make it to the heavenly home. Some of us want to live and believe as they did. You "culturals", while this is not necessarily your intent, would rip the beating heart out of a living body of believers if you got your changes. And what for the next generation? When you cultural change makers are gone...What follows? Will your children feel the thrill of changing a nasty church into something half-way presentable to the public? Or will it be the sterilization of the seed of faith that ordinarily bears fruit in our kids? I suggest that our children would explain to each other how their backward parents had this weird attachment to that Mormon or Catholic Church, even after they admitted all the bad stuff that had gone on in it for so long. They'd think it was loony. Hopefully, they will have sympathy for their parents. But I cannot imagine how they are going to have ANY attachment to such a religious fiasco as Mormon and Catholic churches that have been wrong, and sometimes maliciously so, until 2014 and later. 

 

Sincerely,

 

Rory

So churches should never admit they were wrong about something?  I know I don't find that an endearing trait in an individual let alone a church.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Yirgacheffe

[3DOP]

So churches should never admit they were wrong about something?  I know I don't find that an endearing trait in an individual let alone a church.

 

So you are waiting to go to an "endearing church" to tell you that they have been wrong about serious moral issues and are changing their minds, after they have used theological lies to hurt and condemn innocent people, for periods of centuries and millenia. I have my doubts that many would be drawn by such a move. But maybe you would go and there are others like you? Maybe? But I doubt it would flourish for the reasons I mentioned above. The things I mentioned which involve hatred because of skin color, sexual orientation, and gender would be fatal flaws in my opinion. You can't hate and suppress the innocent for long stretches and still be God's Church. I think many would be looking for a New Restoration. I think it would adversely affect attendance and attitudes, and especially from those faithful who would feel betrayed and who were certain that the Church was never guilty of hatred and was speaking God's truth for those millenia and centuries. 

 

So in short, what you would find endearing, I would find to be an insult to the community of the saints that came before us, because in effect, if a church of this generation says a church of past generations was maliciously wrong in such matters, it isn't confessing one's own sins anyway. It is spitting on the graves of our spiritual parents.

Edited October 4, 2014 by 3DOP

[why me]

In previous posts in this thread I wrote about postmodernism. However, as the GA stated in his talk saturday morning about relativism, we can also say that many members are now coming under the influence of a relativism when it comes to lds issues. Both postmodernism and relativism compliment the other.

 

It becomes a 'me' and what is good for me. And a questiioning of all truth until there is no longer one truth narrative but a series of small acts to further what the individual wishes to believe...a sort of making the church in what that person wishes it to be. God is no longer relavant. Some are becoming under the influence of moral relativism.

Edited October 4, 2014 by why me