The New Anti-Mormons Are Lds

[HappyJackWagon]

So what are you doing? Has it a name? You seem to be saying that I am wrong because... why? Because you don't see my way as the best way? Looks to me like you may be as opposed to my way as I am to any way that is not what I see as the best way, so maybe now we can get into any reason why maybe I should consider your way or any other way as the best way. You didn't expect me to blush or fall away from my way because you ate now pointing your finger at me and ridiculung me or my way, did you?

Am I to suppose that you calling me arrogant means that I really am arrogant? I didn't say you were arrogant, but there you are calling me arrogant while you also say I am making unchristlike judgments, as if I really am, and as if you are not arrogant in saying that. Do you really believe that is the best way to handle this situation?

Heh, the irony here is amazing. If only we agreed on the best way to be.

Yes, when you claim to have the only way and that when others don't follow your way properly, then they are anti-mormon then yes, that is arrogant. You see, I believe in a way too and you don't seem to be following that. I may think you are arrogant and unchristlike in your approach, but I won't call you anti-mormon or apostate because of it. I'm judging the behavior and not the person. And you can call me arrogant too. But you do not have the right to call me apostate or anti-mormon. that is a judgement on me as a person and you have no clue.

 

 

The difference as illustrated in my example, is I'm not really calling you anti-mormon because we disagree. You are calling me anti-mormon because I don't agree with your way.

[Jeanne]

Lead me, guide me, walk beside me, help me find the way.  Teach me all that I must do to live with him someday.

 

https://www.lds.org/music/library/childrens-songbook/i-am-a-child-of-god?lang=eng

 

 

PS:  I want that parasol….

Thank you so much Cal.  Actually, my bad was I was talking about "I am a Child of God" but my sister and I used to sing that

Teach Me to Walk in the Light...that one?  I am 58 and we dueted all this stuff when I was pre-teen and teenager.  Anyway, I loved both songs as well as "I Wonder When He Comes Again"...yes, I should be more in touch with my early teachings..I am just older and I think that Scott should maybe think before he speaks..Thanks again, I want that parasol too!

[Ahab]

So it needs to be broken down the to individual actions or thoughts, correct? People can do Mormon way things, and people can to anti-mormon way things. So what again is the point of labeling a PERSON, a whole person, as anti-mormon to you?

I consider a person being anti-Mormon as a behavior or a position a person takes on when he/she is opposed to sonething about the Mormon way or best way to be. So a person is anti-Mormon only when being that way, not necessarily all of the time.

I don't believe Christ was divine, but I apply many of his teaching into my life. Am I anti-Christ?

Think of it this way, if you are opposed to Christ in any way...who and what he was/is, what he said, what he did and why he did what he did, etc...then you are anti-Christ to the extent that you are opposed to him. But on the other hand, if you are in agreement and accept Christ to any extent, then you are pro-Christ to the extent you accept him and what he taught and did, etc.

So it's a ratio of the extent you agree and don't agree with him, like for example 80/20 when someone is 80% pro-Christ and 20% anti-Christ.

I don't believe the BOM is a historical document or that God restored his true church through Joseph Smith. Am I anti-Mormon?

Yes, to some extent. It doesn't sound to me like you are 100% anti-Mormon, though.

[Brian 2.0]

I consider a person being anti-Mormon as a behavior or a position a person takes on when he/she is opposed to sonething about the Mormon way or best way to be. So a person is anti-Mormon only when being that way, not necessarily all of the time.

Think of it this way, if you are opposed to Christ in any way...who and what he was/is, what he said, what he did and why he did what he did, etc...then you are anti-Christ to the extent that you are opposed to him. But on the other hand, if you are in agreement and accept Christ to any extent, then you are pro-Christ to the extent you accept him and what he taught and did, etc.

So it's a ratio of the extent you agree and don't agree with him, like for example 80/20 when someone is 80% pro-Christ and 20% anti-Christ.

Yes, to some extent. It doesn't sound to me like you are 100% anti-Mormon, though.

 

Indeed I'm not 100% anti-mormon.  I'm glad to see that you do have gradations in how your view someone as pro/anti, breaking it down to behavior.  It was sounding like you might have been classifying people whole cloth one way or the other.

[Boanerges]

I don't recall being asked if I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God in the temple recommend interview. If I don't but hold a recommend am I anti-Mormon?

[Scott Lloyd]

Teddyaware, if there was a LIKE button, I'd use it.  I guess this will do.  

Sevenbak, in case someone else hasn't already drawn your attention to it, there is a "like" button -- or the functional equivalent thereof. It's in the lower-right-hand corner of the post. You can click on the little green arrow that points upward. Yours and all other expressions of approval will be totaled in the numeral next to the arrow. We call these "rep points" here on the board.

[bcuzbcuz]

I consider a person being anti-Mormon as a behavior or a position a person takes on when he/she is opposed to sonething about the Mormon way or best way to be. So a person is anti-Mormon only when being that way, not necessarily all of the time.

Think of it this way, if you are opposed to Christ in any way...who and what he was/is, what he said, what he did and why he did what he did, etc...then you are anti-Christ to the extent that you are opposed to him. But on the other hand, if you are in agreement and accept Christ to any extent, then you are pro-Christ to the extent you accept him and what he taught and did, etc.

So it's a ratio of the extent you agree and don't agree with him, like for example 80/20 when someone is 80% pro-Christ and 20% anti-Christ.

Yes, to some extent. It doesn't sound to me like you are 100% anti-Mormon, though.

It must be "good to be me".....?

[Guest]

The term "Anti-Mormon" is soooo 19th century...the new pejorative dejour is "Church Critic"

Whatever you call, but "evil speaking of the Lord's anointed" is amplified by the Internet. Although this site the talks by GA's will be more positive that other sites and then as time passes the talks will be picked over until only the bare bones remain. I think here more than any place this will not be the majority of what happens, but on Mormon Discussions and CARM, the real feast will take place, as the marrow will be sucked from the bones.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I remember growing up thinking every member had similar views on things, like politics. I was shocked when I was in Young Men and heard some of the best Molly Mormon girls I know talk about how they were in favor of gay marriage and when I was in my college ward hearing some of the female Molly Mormons be feminists and pro choice. I used to think everyone in the church was supposed to have the same values and opinions. Then you find out Harry Reid, one of the biggest liberals, is a well active faithful Mormon. All these people are faithful and active LDS. It opened my eyes that not everyone thinks on the same page in our church and different views and opinions must be ok.

 

It's ok to ask questions about the church that may trouble you, because a lot of members learn information of the church history from outside sources and it raises questions, because these issues were never taught in primary, or seminary, or institute, or ever brought up at all where I live. I learned about polygamy from a tv show, because no one in my church growing up ever brought it up. Hard topics aren't discussed in church, only church approved manual topics and discussions are covered so people learn the hard stuff from internet, tv shows, and people on the street.

[Guest]

Good post Papa. What you said is my kind of Mormonism, and it's pretty darn good Catholicism too, in my book. Simple. True to your roots. I'd love to go to church with you Papa. God help us.

 

Same here, I have resolved that I would rather defend the faith and be scorned on the Internet, rather than being absent from the pew...I love my Church and support my leaders. This does not mean I will never disagree, but I will not allow that disagreement to be tossed in the ring as red meat for the likes of people who are in open rebellion.

[Scott Lloyd]

The term "Anti-Mormon" is soooo 19th century...the new pejorative dejour is "Church Critic"

 

 

If you are serious, what is the acceptable neutral way to say someone is a critic of the Church or is that not even acceptable now?

I could suggest a few synonyms: antagonist, adversary, foe, competitor, contender, opponent, opposer, rival, oppugnant one, detractor, disparager, faultfinder.

 

But then, some might not view these as "neutral."

 

Perhaps the easiest thing is for each person to own his attitude and disposition and not try to hide behind political correctness or spin. (See my sig line, the portions in teal and forest-green type.)

Edited October 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

I remember growing up thinking every member had similar views on things, like politics. I was shocked when I was in Young Men and heard some of the best Molly Mormon girls I know talk about how they were in favor of gay marriage and when I was in my college ward hearing some of the female Molly Mormons be feminists and pro choice. I used to think everyone in the church was supposed to have the same values and opinions. Then you find out Harry Reid, one of the biggest liberals, is a well active faithful Mormon. All these people are faithful and active LDS. It opened my eyes that not everyone thinks on the same page in our church and different views and opinions must be ok.

It's ok to ask questions about the church that may trouble you, because a lot of members learn information of the church history from outside sources and it raises questions, because these issues were never taught in primary, or seminary, or institute, or ever brought up at all where I live. I learned about polygamy from a tv show, because no one in my church growing up ever brought it up. Hard topics aren't discussed in church, only church approved manual topics and discussions are covered so people learn the hard stuff from internet, tv shows, and people on the street.

I believe there is a way we should be if our goal is to attain perfection. It's just that some people are not that way now, and some people don't even want to be the way we should be, so we're always going to have some disagreements when some people clash in some way with some other people in some other way and sometimes all some people are going to want is for some people to get out of their way.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Good point. A lot of times, that happens over differing political views.

[toon]

Sorry, but you don't get to have it both ways.

 

If someone is counted as a member of the Church when the Church claims to have "15,082,086" members, then that person is "LDS". 

 

You can categorize the different members however you want, but until the Church is willing to qualify that number with activity rates and other criteria, there is no difference. 

 

Even if someone is "in the thrall of rebellion and apostasy", until they resign or are ex'd, they get to say "I'm LDS" just as much as President Monson does, and it's up to everyone else to figure out what that means.

 

I thought the "no true Scot" argument was reserved for those that recently voted against independence.

[Scott Lloyd]

I've been around Mormon-related message boards now for not quite as long as Rory, but for a good long while notwithstanding.

 

Here is how I have perceived the shifts over time:

 

1. Initially, the most incessant attacks coming from contentious Evangelicals.

 

2. Later, the preponderance being about equally split -- and overlapping -- between militant atheists/secularists and Mormon apostates.

 

3. Most recently, from fringers endeavoring to remake the Church to suit their own preferences.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

I've been around Mormon-related message boards now for not quite as long as Rory, but for a good long while notwithstanding.

Here is how I have perceived the shifts over time:

1. Initially, the most incessant attacks coming from contentious Evangelicals.

2. Later, the preponderance being about equally split between atheists/secularists and Mormon apostates.

3. Most recently, from fringers endeavoring to remake the Church to suit their own preferences.

Sounds to me a lot like what we once referred to as the three-fold mission of the Church:

1. Proclaim the gospel.

2. Redeem the dead.

3. Perfect the saints.

We still do some of each but it doesn't seem that we talk about all of it as much as we once did.

[why me]

 

3. Most recently, from fringers endeavoring to remake the Church to suit their own preferences.

And I think that this is the most frustrating of all. Members who attempt to make the church in their own image or preference as if the church is a postmodern institution. However, we just have their word that they are actual active members of the lds church and not trolls. I also think that the problem has to do with the changes on the board. It is no longer an apologist board like it was in the old days. It is more a discussion board and so, if anyone attempts to defend the church too strongely, they may be placed on limited. I think that this thread has at least five or four people on limited who do defend the lds church. Times have changed.

[why me]

Sounds to me a lot like what we once referred to as the three-fold mission of the Church:

1. Proclaim the gospel.

2. Redeem the dead.

3. Perfect the saints.

We still do some of each but it doesn't seem that we talk about all of it as much as we once did.th

No ,we don't. Such ideas seem absolete now. The conversation has gotten hijacked by other topics that have more to do with postmodern thinking. The idea of perfecting the saints seems old fashioned now. At this moment, it is more fashionable to criticize leaders, second guess these leaders, and refer to them as something different than GAs. And we now celebrate beard protests. Maybe it is the sign of the times.

 

Also,we have a lot of defenders on limited. These people cannot start threads that may have to do with the three things you listed not to mention other topics.

[Storm Rider]

Sorry, but you don't get to have it both ways.

 

If someone is counted as a member of the Church when the Church claims to have "15,082,086" members, then that person is "LDS". 

 

You can categorize the different members however you want, but until the Church is willing to qualify that number with activity rates and other criteria, there is no difference. 

 

Even if someone is "in the thrall of rebellion and apostasy", until they resign or are ex'd, they get to say "I'm LDS" just as much as President Monson does, and it's up to everyone else to figure out what that means.

 

This is choking at gnats and swallowing camels.  There is a vast difference between those who are listed as members of the Church and devout LDS.  The issue is those that pose as an active LDS and then can only whine and complain, undermine, and destroy.  Just be yourself without any need to pose.  Many in apostasy know it and should claim it.  There are many others that are in apostasy and don't know it.  

 

It could be you did not realize the distinction between those who pose and those who don't.  I find it beyond obvious. 

Edited October 3, 2014 by Storm Rider

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Ahab-

What you don't seem to be getting is that your "best-way" or "Mormon-Way" is exactly that.... YOUR "Mormon-Way". And when you are saying people aren't following the "best-way" or "Mormon-Way" it is actually based on your own interpretation of what the "Mormon-Way" is-  and YOUR  "Mormon-Way" is not necessarily the "best Mormon-Way".

Edited October 3, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Senator]

 

After ruminating and lamenting over this sad situation, where general negativity, burgeoning unbelief and mocking disrespect toward the leaders of the Church seem to be spreading like virulent viruses, I wondered how much longer I would be able to continue to participate and "hold down the fort for the good guys,' as it were, before it becomes too spiritually unhealthy to stay involved.

 

 

 

 

"Oh Enoch, don't flee...........what would we do?"   

[why me]

Ahab-

What you don't seem to be getting is that your "best-way" or "Mormon-Way" is exactly that.... YOUR "Mormon-Way". And when you are saying people aren't following the "best-way" or "Mormon-Way" it is actually based on your own interpretation of what the "Mormon-Way" is-  and YOUR  "Mormon-Way" is not necessarily the "best Mormon-Way".

The mormon way used to be simple. It was not really up for discussion. Listen to the prophets, obey the commandments of god, fellowship the saints, and do service with love at the center of it. The mormon way had nothing to do with criticizing the leaders and adopt postmodern understandings about what exactly equality is or how the church shoud be.

[Scott Lloyd]

Sounds to me a lot like what we once referred to as the three-fold mission of the Church:

1. Proclaim the gospel.

2. Redeem the dead.

3. Perfect the saints.

We still do some of each but it doesn't seem that we talk about all of it as much as we once did.

Not sure I understand your comparison here, but at any rate, the purpose of the Church has been restated as follows in the current Church handbook:

 

In fulfilling its purpose to help individuals and families qualify for exaltation, the Church focuses on divinely appointed responsibilities. These include helping members live the gospel of Jesus Christ, gathering Israel through missionary work, caring for the poor and needy, and enabling the salvation of the dead by building temples and performing vicarious ordinances.

 

 

Link: https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-principles/2.2#22

[why me]

I don't recall being asked if I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God in the temple recommend interview. If I don't but hold a recommend am I anti-Mormon?

No. I don't hold a temple recommend. However, I do think that if one is an active member, belief in the book of mormon would seem to be mandatory or a given. Also, if one does not believe that the GAs are men of god but just a bunch of guys who have gotten it all wrong, I don't think that I would bother with the temple. But this is just my opinion.

 

That being said, nothing wrong with having questions.

[Ahab]

Ahab-

What you don't seem to be getting is that your "best-way" or "Mormon-Way" is exactly that.... YOUR "Mormon-Way". And when you are saying people aren't following the "best-way" or "Mormon-Way" it is actually based on your own interpretation of what the "Mormon-Way" is- and YOUR "Mormon-Way" is not necessarily the "best Mormon-Way".

No, because I have been and can still get confirmation from God as I go along that I am understanding the Mormon/best way correctly. So my understanding is God's understanding, as far as I know and get understanding from God.