Response To "what Women Know"

[Calm]

What would you suggest?

With kids I would prefer to leave it to the professionals to ensure that what we mean to teach we teach...but if it works, I am thinking that perhaps in priesthood lessons when things happen like the boys standing up, have the girls stand up afterwards and using something like Elder Oaks' talk, dwell on how when they are older and going to the temple they will be able to learn more about the Priesthood there and how women are involved in it as well, though not in the exact same way as each person has an impotant role to play to make up a complete story, also that they will participate in the same ordinances though in a few things the women will do one thing and thevmen another, that even though they will not hold the office of the Priesthood, they can affect others through it by seeking out others who might benefit from it and help them have faith in blessings. Then have them stand together and teachthat by exercising faith in the Priesthood right now they are activating its power as much, if not more than the one performing the blessing (think of receiving a priceless gift that God gave a man through the Priesthood to give to us, if we dont reach out for it and do our part to take it in and care for it, it will end up shattered and worthless)...all boys and girls and men and women can therefore be caretakers of the Priesthood for each other, even if at this time men will do most of the courier work to bring people God's ordinances. And finally, that everyone can prepare themselves to receive this greater knowledge, tool for greater righteousness and blessings through studying the gospel and learning about what priesthood is and how it works, including how it works in others' lives as well as their own.

I would also try to teach a more active participation, even if internally for everyone so girls dont see priesthood as something done for or to them, but that they are needed to be there as much as the ordinancer giver. In teaching the receiving of ordinances, focus on how taking the bread is as much of an essential part of the ordinance as blessing it, that the ordinance is meaningless without our acts of acceptance which is usually not so obvious as the sacrament but always still there. Our bodies may be sitting under the hands of those who bless us but our spirits need to be reaching out to God, to covenant before him, no one is a passive participant. It is our acceptance that fills the words with true meaning.

Edited April 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[Bernard Gui]

With kids I would prefer to leave it to the professionals to ensure that what we mean to teach we teach...but if it works, I am thinking that perhaps in priesthood lessons when things happen like the boys standing up, have the girls stand up afterwards and using something like Elder Oaks' talk, dwell on how when they are older and going to the temple they will be able to learn more about the Priesthood there and how women are involved in it as well, though not in the exact same way as each person has an impotant role to play to make up a complete story, also that they will participate in the same ordinances though in a few things the women will do one thing and thevmen another, that even though they will not hold the office of the Priesthood, they can affect others through it by seeking out others who might benefit from it and help them have faith in blessings. Then have them stand together and teachthat by exercising faith in the Priesthood right now they are activating its power as much, if not more than the one performing the blessing (think of receiving a priceless gift that God gave a man through the Priesthood to give to us, if we dont reach out for it and do our part to take it in and care for it, it will end up shattered and worthless)...all boys and girls and men and women can therefore be caretakers of the Priesthood for each other, even if at this time men will do most of the courier work to bring people God's ordinances. And finally, that everyone can prepare themselves to receive this greater knowledge, tool for greater righteousness and blessings through studying the gospel and learning about what priesthood is and how it works, including how it works in others' lives as well as their own.

I would also try to teach a more active participation, even if internally for everyone so girls dont see priesthood as something done for or to them, but that they are needed to be there as much as the ordinancer giver. In teaching the receiving of ordinances, focus on how taking the bread is as much of an essential part of the ordinance as blessing it, that the ordinance is meaningless without our acts of acceptance which is usually not so obvious as the sacrament but always still there. Our bodies may be sitting under the hands of those who bless us but our spirits need to be reaching out to God, to covenant before him, no one is a passive participant. It is our acceptance that fills the words with true meaning.

Wonderful ideas that can and should be implemented right now.

[MorningStar]

I am not running the show (thankfully), but I would have no problem with some or even many of the changes. Like, for instance, if women had some role in disciplinary councils or some form of counseling for girls provided by women. I do think the problem is mixed within some suggestions that are worth considering are changes the brethren simply can't make on their own (changing temple language) and others that I don't know else to describe except to call them petty and stupid (equal number of men and women speakers at GC, equal reference to men and women in church publications, planning of sacrament services). 

We have female counselors who work for LDS Family Services, which bishops often refer members to. 

[AZ in GA]

And you likely never will. We would have to substantially increase the number of men attending, since it requires two to even teach a primary class.

 

I would like to see equality here.  If there needs to be 2 men, there should also be a requirement for 2 women in a primary class.  In our ward, the primary is staffed with primarily men (with a ton of women declining the primary callings),  It is now to the point where more than half of the elders quorum is in primary due to the requirement. 

 

Should the church be assuming that men are more likely to cause a problem? 

[AZ in GA]

I'll see your Sister Sunday School President and raise you just eliminating Sunday School. It seems

redundant to me. A Two Hour Block has a certain ring to it.

 

AMEN, and AMEN!

[bluebell]

I would like to see equality here.  If there needs to be 2 men, there should also be a requirement for 2 women in a primary class.  In our ward, the primary is staffed with primarily men (with a ton of women declining the primary callings),  It is now to the point where more than half of the elders quorum is in primary due to the requirement. 

 

Should the church be assuming that men are more likely to cause a problem? 

 

In my ward in Utah two women are required just like two men.

[wenglund]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed a marked increase in murmuring within the Church in the last half decade?

 

If I am correct, then I am caused to wonder why the increase?

 

Have we forgotten who ultimately is in charge and the purpose for his kingdom and gospel (as Pahoran astutely reminded us)? Do we seriously presume to be wiser than God and his chosen leaders? Where did we get the impression that the Church operates on the principle of common dissent rather than common consent?

 

• 1 Nephi 2:12

  12 And thus Laman and Lemuel, being the eldest, did murmur against their father. And they did murmur because they knew not the dealings of that God who had created them.

• John 6:43

  43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mtomm]

I would like to see equality here.  If there needs to be 2 men, there should also be a requirement for 2 women in a primary class.  In our ward, the primary is staffed with primarily men (with a ton of women declining the primary callings),  It is now to the point where more than half of the elders quorum is in primary due to the requirement. 

 

Should the church be assuming that men are more likely to cause a problem? 

 

If the situation were reversed you'd be saying that at least 1/2 the sisters are not in R.S. because they are in Primary but for some reason that seems to be perfectly fine. 

 

What would be interesting is to find out why the women are not interested in teaching Primary being as how they are supposed to be naturally inclined to nurturing. 

[AZ in GA]

If the situation were reversed you'd be saying that at least 1/2 the sisters are not in R.S. because they are in Primary but for some reason that seems to be perfectly fine. 

 

What would be interesting is to find out why the women are not interested in teaching Primary being as how they are supposed to be naturally inclined to nurturing. 

 

I didn't say reverse it.  I said set the same requirements for all.

 

I agree with the second statement.

[Rain]

What would be interesting is to find out why the women are not interested in teaching Primary being as how they are supposed to be naturally inclined to nurturing. 

I can tell you why I wasn't interested for years and am still not excited about it.  Long story short it was because I was a stay at home mom (loved it!) with a husband who traveled quite a bit.  I really needed some adult interaction.  I've had friends who were teachers, day care providers, etc. who felt the same way.

 

Just because someone is naturally inclined to nurturing doesn't mean that she wants to be with children ALL the time. Often that nurturing happens with adults and teens as well.

[MorningStar]

If the situation were reversed you'd be saying that at least 1/2 the sisters are not in R.S. because they are in Primary but for some reason that seems to be perfectly fine. 

 

What would be interesting is to find out why the women are not interested in teaching Primary being as how they are supposed to be naturally inclined to nurturing. 

Nurturing my own children is a lot different than nurturing other people's children.  It's the most frustrating thing to deal with difficult kids whose parents act like they can do no wrong.

[Senator]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed a marked increase in murmuring within the Church in the last half decade?

 

If I am correct, then I am caused to wonder why the increase?

 

Have we forgotten who ultimately is in charge and the purpose for his kingdom and gospel (as Pahoran astutely reminded us)? Do we seriously presume to be wiser than God and his chosen leaders? Where did we get the impression that the Church operates on the principle of common dissent rather than common consent?

 

• 1 Nephi 2:12

  12 And thus Laman and Lemuel, being the eldest, did murmur against their father. And they did murmur because they knew not the dealings of that God who had created them.

• John 6:43

  43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

It's just you.

[wenglund]

It's just you.

 

Phew...that is a relief. But, now I feel like a fish out of water.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mtomm]

I didn't say reverse it.  I said set the same requirements for all.

 

I agree with the second statement.

 

When I said "you" I wasn't referring to you personally but to people generally.  Women have dominated Primary until recently and nobody was worried that they were missing Relief Society.  (Okay, when I say nobody that just means in general.  It's just the way it was and still is in many places.)  

[mtomm]

Nurturing my own children is a lot different than nurturing other people's children.  It's the most frustrating thing to deal with difficult kids whose parents act like they can do no wrong.

 

This and what Rain said.  This is exactly how I feel.  I love my own kids but I'm not a real fan of other's and I don't ask to hold babies in Church either. I just finished my third stint in nursery and it was rough.  

[Bernard Gui]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed a marked increase in murmuring within the Church in the last half decade?

 

If I am correct, then I am caused to wonder why the increase?

 

Have we forgotten who ultimately is in charge and the purpose for his kingdom and gospel (as Pahoran astutely reminded us)? Do we seriously presume to be wiser than God and his chosen leaders? Where did we get the impression that the Church operates on the principle of common dissent rather than common consent?

 

• 1 Nephi 2:12

  12 And thus Laman and Lemuel, being the eldest, did murmur against their father. And they did murmur because they knew not the dealings of that God who had created them.

• John 6:43

  43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, Wade. I agree. It seems more and more we are going out of our way to find fault with the Church, leaders, members, policies,

practices. It is destructive.

[Bernard Gui]

Nurturing my own children is a lot different than nurturing other people's children.  It's the most frustrating thing to deal with difficult kids whose parents act like they can do no wrong.

But.......it takes a village........

[pogi]

Examine all Church positions to determine whether they can be filled without regard to gender.

 

14. Church positions/gender....some positions require priesthood, some don't. Pretty well sorted out already.

 

Have you ever seen a male primary president or chorister?

[Rock_N_Roll]

Have you ever seen a male primary president or chorister?

 

Our ward has a male chorister in Primary.  

[AZ in GA]

When I said "you" I wasn't referring to you personally but to people generally.  Women have dominated Primary until recently and nobody was worried that they were missing Relief Society.  (Okay, when I say nobody that just means in general.  It's just the way it was and still is in many places.)

So is the end goal here equality or payback?

I have no problem with men being called to Primary, but instituting a rule does not smell like equality. I believe that some of the responses here would appear to validate some of the concerns of the orthodox men, that some of these women are not out for equality, they want to make men "suffer as they have suffered".

[AZ in GA]

Nurturing my own children is a lot different than nurturing other people's children.  It's the most frustrating thing to deal with difficult kids whose parents act like they can do no wrong.

So should we do away with primary? Is it hard for men too?

[Nofear]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed a marked increase in murmuring within the Church in the last half decade?

 

If I am correct, then I am caused to wonder why the increase?

 

Have we forgotten who ultimately is in charge and the purpose for his kingdom and gospel (as Pahoran astutely reminded us)? Do we seriously presume to be wiser than God and his chosen leaders? Where did we get the impression that the Church operates on the principle of common dissent rather than common consent?

 

I personally think that the Lord would have already instituted several gender advancements but that we, as Mormons and society as a whole, are largely unprepared for them. The Brethren specifically asked that the Sisters be much more involved in Church governance (e.g. ward council) but we still see situations that are not quite to that level of participation (either because of reluctant sisters or negligent priesthood leadership). The Lord can reveal things (and has) but until we as a people are prepared it won't do much good. Some measure of social agitation will be involved in the societal transition.

 

That said, I believe the Adversary is playing a very clever game. 1) By overshooting the mark beyond what is acceptable (e.g. Ordain Women movement), any advances proposed by the Brethren will look like uninspired and half-hearted capitulation. 2) The issue of homosexual rights is a great bugbear. Any movement towards advancement in gender issues will cause a stir among the other realm ("Why not us!?") and the gentile social backlash.

 

In short, I think that the Lord does want greater involvement by the sisters in the Church and its functioning, but that we as a people continue to be resistant (a nature of conservative organizations) and the Adversary is laying very clever traps that we don't really wish to spring.

[mtomm]

So is the end goal here equality or payback?

I have no problem with men being called to Primary, but instituting a rule does not smell like equality. I believe that some of the responses here would appear to validate some of the concerns of the orthodox men, that some of these women are not out for equality, they want to make men "suffer as they have suffered".

 

 My point was that you seemed to be concerned that men were missing Elder's quorum but failed to note that more women have been missing Relief Society since we began the three hour block program. It is just as important for women to attend R.S. as it is for men to attend EQ.   I just wanted to note that.  And I don't think missing R.S. or Elder's Quorum is suffering.  Sometimes serving in Primary is a blessing and sometimes a curse -- as it is with every calling in the Church. 

Edited April 17, 2014 by mtomm

[bluebell]

Have you ever seen a male primary president or chorister?

 

My ward had one a while ago.

[bluebell]

Nurturing my own children is a lot different than nurturing other people's children.  It's the most frustrating thing to deal with difficult kids whose parents act like they can do no wrong.

 

I think the dynamic for a lot of women outside of church is such that being in primary in church is extra hard on them as well.  I'm thinking specifically of the years my children were young and there were weeks when the only time that i had any adult interaction besides with my husband were the two hours (after sacrament) of church.  I don't think my experience is that much different than a lot of stay at home moms.

 

Therefore, putting mothers of younger children (which often happens) in a primary calling is often a lot different, emotionally and mentally, than putting a dad in one.  In such situations it is asking a lot more of them emotionally and mentally than it is with people in different positions.  In those cases, i'm not at all surprised that a lot of women would not want to face that.