Response To "what Women Know"

[Bernard Gui]

My daughter, Bernadetta Gui, pointed me to this ultimatum issued by "What Women Know."

 

http://whatwomenknow.org/all_are_alike/

 

 

As Mormon women, we call upon the First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and Relief Society General Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray about the full integration of women into the decision-making structure of the Church and the question of women’s ordination.
In the interim, we join many others in suggesting some simple changes in institutional policy that will foster a more equitable religious community:

• Encourage partnership in marriage and eliminate the idea that husbands preside over their wives.
   
• Create parity in the Young Women and Young Men organizations through equivalent budgets, educational programs (leadership, career, and spiritual training,) and activities (sports, service, and outdoor events).
   
• Balance the stories and images of boys and men in church publications, talks, and other media with stories and images of girls and women.
   
• Invite women in Church leadership positions to speak and pray during General Conference in numbers equal to the participation of men.
   
• Encourage leaders to use gender-inclusive language whenever possible.
   
• Recognize that girls and boys, women and men are equally responsible for appropriate sexual behavior, and avoid reducing morality to sexuality, and modesty to a preoccupation with women’s and girls’ clothing.
   
• Instruct bishops to refrain from asking Church members probing questions about sexual practices and experiences.
   
• Call women to perform pastoral counseling, particularly for women and girls who have been sexually abused.
   
• Choose a General Relief Society Presidency and General Board that reflect the diversity of viewpoint and circumstance in the Church, and establish frequent meetings between the First Presidency and the General Relief Society Presidency.
   
• Include the Stake Relief Society President in Stake Presidency meetings, and appoint women to meet with the High Council.
   
• Delegate more expansive supervisory authority to the Stake and Ward Relief Society, Young Women, and Primary presidencies, including approval of personnel, programs, and activities. 
   
• Include women among stake and ward leaders who hear evidence and offer judgment in Church disciplinary councils.
   
• Include the local Relief Society president in all bishopric meetings, and rotate the planning of Sacrament services among the Relief Society president and members of the bishopric.
   
• Examine all Church positions to determine whether they can be filled without regard to gender.
   
• Appoint women as presidents of Church universities and heads of administrative departments.
   
• Expand hiring practices in the Seminaries and Institutes of Religion and within the religion departments at Church universities to provide women the same placement, advancement, and tenure opportunities as men.
   
• Call young women as well as young men to serve missions at the same age and for the same length of time, and afford women the same opportunity as men to function as district leaders, zone leaders, and assistants to the president.
   
• Lift the prohibition on women's participation in the blessing of their children.
   
• Change temple marriage policies so that men and women have equal opportunity to be sealed to their second spouses after they are widowed or divorced.
   
• Consider further wording changes to temple ceremonies and ordinances such that both men and women make the same covenants and enjoy the same promises.
   
• Recognize women as witnesses for baptisms and marriage sealings.
   
• Restore the former institutionally-accepted practice of women giving blessings of healing and comfort.

Written September, 2012

 

 

Here are my brief responses:

 

1. Husbands preside over wives....as Christ presides over the Church. He gave his life for it.

2. Parity in YW/YM budgets and programs....being addressed already, but will probably result in reduced activities for both

3. Balance stories and images....I suppose so. I started to tally pictures and stories in the Ensign, Friend, New Era, and Liahona, but it is tedious.

I would like to see some evidence of the unbalance.

4. Equal number of women and men speakers at General Conference....that would be 18 talks, 9 women and 9 men.

5. Modesty/morality/sexual behavior....I don't see disparity.

6. Gender-inclusive language....yawn.

7. Bishops probing questions....long time ago fixed.

8. Women to perform pastoral counseling....aren't they doing that now?

9. Diverse RS presidency and board....OK. They have an international outreach going on now. The 1st Presidency doesn't meet with the RS presidency? 

10. Stake RS president in Stake Presidency meeting....maybe on occasion. Probably most already do this.

11. More authority to stake and ward RS YW Prim presidencies....already happening.

12. Women in disciplinary councils....not authorized in scripture. The bishop is the common judge.

13. Ward RS pres in all bishopric meetings....how about just meet together when needed.

14. Church positions/gender....some positions require priesthood, some don't. Pretty well sorted out already.

15. Women presidents of universities....well, ok.

16. Seminary institute positions, well, ok.

17. Mission parity....yawn.

18. Women blessing children....the dad needs something meaningful to do at birth, plus it is a priesthood ordinance.

19. Temple 2nd marriage....I suppose.

20. Change words in temple....would alter church doctrine and violate scripture.

21. Women witnesses....a priesthood function.

22. Women giving blessings....whatever. Do it in the privacy of your home.

 

Here is her pithy response to my points. She makes me proud with her last comment. What a woman!

 

My favorite of your responses is no. 6.  Made me laugh.  Several years ago, an acquaintance and a friend of mine started contributing to Mormon Feminist Housewives.  The several posts I read (usually ones by the women I know) were not really controversial in my opinion.  My impression was that it was a blog by LDS women- most highly educated- who shared their struggles to fit into or reject the 'typical' LDS Molly Mormon Mold.  Maybe because I met such a variety if women at BYU- liberal, conservative, indifferent, faithful, unfaithful, artsy, business minded, marriage seeking, independent, etc. that I never felt there wasn't room in the church for all types.  It seems that what started as an online community to vent has turned into an extremist movement that I would venture to say most do not personally seek, but do support for one reason or another.  I have been looking at the OW website to see if they have addressed the very plain answer they were given to their questions.  Can we go to the priesthood session? No.  Can we have the priesthood? No.  But I haven't been able to find any stated justification for them to keep trying for those things- they have selective-doctrine-following syndrome.

 

I think the women and men who support all the other gender issues aside from the desire for priesthood are going to find themselves ignored because the demand for the priesthood is the objective of the outspoken leadership and will out-shout other legit concerns.  The church may have addressed some of these issues already but, Sometimes, changes don't make it all the way to the ends if the spokes, so to speak, of the church.  

Most of the demands on that list seem silly or contrary to doctrine.  And it's a shame the prophet isn't  a woman, because I don't think they'll take no for an answer if it's a man saying it.

 

 

 

Scott Lloyd: Do the Church publications tally up all the boy/girl/man/woman/racewhatever/gender/age coverage each month? If not, can

I have that job? I just retired and have some extra time on my hands.

 

 

Your comments?

Edited April 12, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Mystery Meat]

I am not running the show (thankfully), but I would have no problem with some or even many of the changes. Like, for instance, if women had some role in disciplinary councils or some form of counseling for girls provided by women. I do think the problem is mixed within some suggestions that are worth considering are changes the brethren simply can't make on their own (changing temple language) and others that I don't know else to describe except to call them petty and stupid (equal number of men and women speakers at GC, equal reference to men and women in church publications, planning of sacrament services). 

[Storm Rider]

The list makes the assumption that women are downtrodden and are having a very difficult time in the Church and society.  Hmm, the last time I looked at how our boys and young men are doing in many, many areas is that they are doing far worse then girls and young women.  Exactly what should we do to help our boys and young men?

 

These people make makes eyes hurt; the most immediate reaction is to roll them incessantly because they are so infantile and me-centered.  I should just not read anything by them or about them. 

[Calm]

"I would like to see some evidence of the unbalance."

There is at least one Primary lesson each year on the Priesthood. Nothing comparable for the girls. In one of them, they have the boys stand up to get recognition from the girls about their future roles as Priesthood holders and iirc to encourage the girls to support them. Again nothing even close to this for the girls.

I think this conference change with the women leaders front and center was ideal given the small number.

There is of course the smaller number of female speakers at conference.

"5. Modesty/morality/sexual behavior....I don't see disparity"

Men (young men) are more often taught about controlling their thoughts (internal behaviour) while women are more often taught about controlling how they appear (external behaviour) to the point at times of being the gatekeepers of men's morality. Hopefully this is already being addressed given the difference between the latest Ensign and the previous one.

Edited April 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Storm Rider]

"I would like to see some evidence of the unbalance."

There is at least one Primary lesson each year on the Priesthood. Nothing comparable for the girls. In one of them, they have the boys stand up to get recognition from the girls about their future roles as Priesthood holders and iirc to encourage the girls to support them. Again nothing even close to this for the girls.

I think this conference change with the women leaders front and center was ideal given the small number.

There is of course the smaller number of female speakers at conference.

"5. Modesty/morality/sexual behavior....I don't see disparity"

Men (young men) are more often taught about controlling their thoughts (internal behaviour) while women are more often taught about controlling how they appear (external behaviour) to the point at times of being the gatekeepers of men's morality. Hopefully this is already being addressed given the difference between the latest Ensign and the previous one.

 

Cal, when I hear these kinds of complaints it devolves life into a ***-for-tat mentality. I have to constantly to keep a score card about what I said last to whom.  It assumes that not a single gender is capable of applying the same lessons to their own gender.  Maybe this is the way it should be; be it just seems so contrived without any demand of anyone to learn, to persist, to stretch themselves. It is serving the lowest common denominator of the human psyche without any desire to improve.  These kinds of influences lead to the destruction of culture and society because no one needs to excel because we will force feed you such an elementary form of existence that life is devalued. I recognize that this is a bit esoteric and convoluted to make sense; I don't have the gift of language to explain exactly what I intend. Leaving others to connect dots is not the best choice, but it is all I "got". 

[Calm]

I am not complaining...well maybe about the Primary lesson. I think it very important that girls have opportunities to feel special and important like the boys and I've heard too many stories of girls wondering why they aren't seen as special like boys due to the Priesthood so I believe there is a need. Young children often don't have the ability to apply language that does not relate directly to them in new ways so they can relate to it and attitudes of self are often formed quite strongly before that ability to extrapolate exists.

I am not bothered by many of the imbalances nor do i think that imbalance itself requires change, but that does not mean the imbalances don't exist.

Edited April 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[BlueDreams]

My initial thoughts: most of these are pretty pragmatic and represent modest changes....they are not as your daughter described them as (silly/contrary to doctrine). Though no all of them I completely agree with, most of them I would be happy to see a change in of some sort. And many that have begun to change very recently (note that this was made in 2012....in the last year alone there have been major changes to the dialogue and actions around women).

 

Your comments?

 

To what you've mentioned there are things that I either basically agree with  but there's a number that i think you're too quick to be dismissive about such as these:

 

5. Modesty/morality/sexual behavior....I don't see disparity.

6. Gender-inclusive language....yawn

7. Bishops probing questions....long time ago fixed.

17. Mission parity....yawn.

22. Women giving blessings....whatever. Do it in the privacy of your home.

 

 

With 5, what Cal said. There has definitely been a disparity. I believe its changing, but there are still major differences in how they are discussed insomuch that modesty and virtue has a female imagery to it and virtue has been hijacked to mean largely sexual purity. 

 

6 - this may seem unimportant but the language used views male as largely a neutral or universal experience whil words specific to female (women, sister, daugthers, etc) are not seen as applicable to men. Without meaning to, the language feeds the idea as the male experience as almost a baseline/normative experience that most fit into. Women are a specialty experience. I'm not saying that this need be heavily systematic in alteration, but some change is helpful.

 

17- this is hardly a yawner. They lowered the age for women by 2 years and all the sudden the number of sisters exponentially increased. This means an exponential incr of the Lord's work as a whole, an exponential increase of young sisters serving in a position that puts them in direct contact with church leaders and to experience with church structure. An exponential increase of young sisters feeling what it means to use the power of the Priesthood in their work. And an exponential increase in younger women endowed like their male counterparts. Yawn, this is not. It's giving greater spiritual strength to both women and the church.

 

22- Same prob as above. This is not a yawner because it is a use of spiritual gifts. I don't consider any excercise in using the spirit and subsequently priesthood power a yawner, but a highly esteemed gift. Keeping it a quiet home practice won't work. For 1 it's out of practice and the vast majority of women won't do it (ie. wash, annoint, or bless by laying on of hands)....nor are aware that they used to be able to. For another, "do it in your own home" isn't how it was used entirely back in the day, and it keeps the practice as hidden, quiet, and unrecognized....plus, because of the lack of historical awareness, also viewed as sketchy. This one will not alter with out a top-down alteration in viewing/implementing of its allowance, simple as that.  

 

 

Some points I think you're missing the actual point being made....like child blessings. Most of the one's i've heard wanting more participation is not to actually do the blessing itself but to hold the child while it's blessed. (p.s. I'm personally fine with this being a solely male thing, but would think it would also be fine to allow mothers that much if they so wanted)

 

Some of this makes the view of women seem more supplemental then necessary for building the stakes of zion....which, considering they make half the population and are purported to be of great importance and necessity, sounds incongruent:

 

9. Diverse RS presidency and board....OK. They have an international outreach going on now. The 1st Presidency doesn't meet with the RS presidency? 

10. Stake RS president in Stake Presidency meeting....maybe on occasion. Probably most already do this.

 

13. Ward RS pres in all bishopric meetings....how about just meet together when needed.

 

Some I wonder about their doctrinal flexibility/accuracy:

 

12. Women in disciplinary councils....not authorized in scripture. The bishop is the common judge.

14. Church positions/gender....some positions require priesthood, some don't. Pretty well sorted out already.

21. Women witnesses....a priesthood function.

 

I tried to quickly read up on 12+14.....twelve was voted in and I don't see some abject mandate that all of the court must be men. Even if women weren't at the helm, per se, but were brought in as special witnesses to give opinion or things for consideration of some sort... I don't see a problem in necessarily implementing that. It would be a change in policy than necessarily a deep doctrinal shift. 21...there isn't an immediate tie to a priesthood office found in the scriptures that I read. Though the power of the priesthood is mentioned, that isn't something that only men can utilize. 14 i just don't agree with....or there needs to be at least better explanations more readily available for a number of them (like ward clerk, sunday school presidencies, etc) as to why these are male. A lot of the ones i've seen are cultural/policy explanations, rather than scriptural/doctrinal based teaching. 

 

Others I agree in part, but the parts I don't agree in are pertinent to me:

1. Husbands preside over wives....as Christ presides over the Church. He gave his life for it.

4. Equal number of women and men speakers at General Conference....that would be 18 talks, 9 women and 9 men.

8. Women to perform pastoral counseling....aren't they doing that now?

9. Diverse RS presidency and board....OK. They have an international outreach going on now. The 1st Presidency doesn't meet with the RS presidency? 

 

1. The emphasis found is in divine partnership. Preside is something that needs far better definition than it's given...but it's largely just not as used to avoid confusion. If you search "preside over wives" or something like it in LDS.org the majority of materials are not within the last decade. And paraphrasing the new testament referencing is nice but also lacking. For one, there's plenty about the NT and gender that we don't follow or believe in. For another, though it softens it by pointing out the great sacrifice of Christ, there's still an obvious disparity in capacities and imagery found in this description. Christ and the church are not an equitable partnership but a paternalistic relationship (he becomes the father of our souls). The church/people are without hope without Him, he will still be God no matter what we decide to do, we won't. Etc. Though there is some parallels of Love and care from the perspective of the husband, the characterization doesn't work well in the other direction of female perspective. It gives an imagery of necessary dependence (church) v. voluntary desire + sacrifice (Christ). To me, if I had to define preside, I feel it's meant moreso as a short term for structuring priesthood/spiritual activity in accord with the keys/office given as opposed to an overarching directive response. Either way, considering the discrepancy between preside and partnership.....i'm more apt to believe that preside is probably very different than how we normally think of it.

 

4. No biggy to me on this note on equal talks. But it would be nice if there were more than 2 and that the General Women's Meeting was equally considered General Conference. And that the cultural reaction and utilization of women's talk were better applied in the ward levels.

 

8. I honestly have no idea, but how much they're utilized varies from ward to ward. It would be nice if at the very least there was more universality in this. 

9. Same....from what can be gleaned is that in some meetings in the recent past, they haven't been used as well as they could be. (Okazki's statements). I'm sure a number of that has changed. And how they function in a general sense has been marginalized over the decades. But I do wonder if women are seen less as nessecary but supplemental to meetings....unfortunately, i also just have no idea. 

 

This one i just found funny: 2. Parity in YW/YM budgets and programs....being addressed already, but will probably result in reduced activities for both

 

I sincerely doubt that there will be a reduced activity for YW. Our activities that were YW specific were generally inexpensive as it was. The resources used were disproportionately favorable for the boys. Women's activities were simply just not as diverse or grandiose. Yes, plenty of it was tied into boy scouts....but the point remains that there was nothing of equitable outreach for the girls. The highlight female-only activities that I remember participating in as a YW was YW's camp and going horseback riding (solely for the YCL's) 1 year....and attending a play in the theater lincoln was shot in, as well as visiting a small art exhibit....that's in a 6 yr period. My guy friends' stories of a number of their trips far out rank that in both duration, cost, and overall wow-factor.    

 

With luv,

BD

Edited April 12, 2014 by BlueDreams

[thatjimguy]

You know, I am going to catch fire for this one, but sometimes I think a lot of the Priesthood power thing really comes down to procreation choices.

 

Women are attracted to power and authority. It's just as natural as a man being atrracted to a woman's figure.

 

Men that follow Jesus are generally meek and the polar opposite of the worldly view of being powerful.

 

However, give them the power of the Priesthood and have women taught to hold it in high regard, and good men can find wives.

 

If any of this could be true, dont expect a change.

Edited April 12, 2014 by thatjimguy

[The Nehor]

And here I thought women were supposed to be our equals. Then they start spouting off about what they "Know" and prove to be quite dim.

[Storm Rider]

I am not complaining...well maybe about the Primary lesson. I think it very important that girls have opportunities to feel special and important like the boys and I've heard too many stories of girls wondering why they aren't seen as special like boys due to the Priesthood so I believe there is a need. Young children often don't have the ability to apply language that does not relate directly to them in new ways so they can relate to it and attitudes of self are often formed quite strongly before that ability to extrapolate exists.

I am not bothered by many of the imbalances nor do i think that imbalance itself requires change, but that does not mean the imbalances don't exist.

 

I think that is the issue. It seems a number of the studies I have read the last five to ten years address the more significant problems with boys and young men; not girls. Yet, the attention is all on how the girls feel and are doing yet they surpass the boys.  It just seems strange.  Am I not reading the right studies or is it a case of calling wolf over and over and over and over.  The boys are just ignored and certainly feel anything but special.

[juliann]

20. Change words in temple....would alter church doctrine and violate scripture.

 

 

Surely you are aware that there have been significant changes to the words, either by removing them or changing them, just as there have been to garments.

 

The problem with your list, as well as their saying "to thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray,"  is the disdain.  Many of those points are reasonable and even needed. It is a great, great mistake to think that women are divided between those who want the priesthood and those who don't. There is a sizable number who want more inclusion but not the priesthood. So treating some of those concerns so dismissively isn't any more helpful than OW's methods.

 

I think the problem we face as a church is the attitude expressed in #4. It should not be unthinkable to even imagine 9 women and 9 men speakers.  It shows how far we have to go in getting men ready to fully accept women, and that has nothing to do with the priesthood.

Edited April 12, 2014 by juliann

[Derl Sanderson]

I am currently serviing as bishop (albeit under my "birth certificate name" of Albert). Two things in this list caught my eye: 

 

1. Instruct bishops to refrain from asking Church members probing questions about sexual practices and experiences.

 

In temple recommend interviews, I am authorized to ask "Do you live the law of chastity?" That's it. At that point, if the member wants to discuss it further, that is his or her prerogative - not mine. I am not authorized to delve any further into a member's sexual practices any more than when I ask "Are you a full tithe payer?" am I permitted to question if the member pays weekly, monthly, yearly, or on net or gross income (by the way, I hate the "do you want net or gross blessings?" folklore question - what constitutes your increase is between you and the Lord).  

 

We try to teach our Young Women and Young Men principles of chastity in groups, and in accordance with those oulined in the Sexual Purity section of the Church's For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. In my interviews, I do ask if they understand these principles and strive to order their lives by them. I don't interrogate them on what experiences they may or may not have had but try to leave them latitude to discuss any questions or concerns they may be wrestling with.

 

2. Create parity in the Young Women and Young Men organizations through equivalent budgets, educational programs (leadership, career, and spiritual training,) and activities (sports, service, and outdoor events).

 

In my four years, no organization has had a greater budget than Young Women, followed closely by the Young Men. In bugetary outlay, those two are always five to six times larger than the next nearest auxillary. We certainly strive for parity in the other items listed in the critique.

 

Unrelated. Handbook 2 (section 4.3, paragraph 3) allows me the latitude of inviting the Relief Society President to PEC meetings "as needed." For me, it's "needed" every Sunday, and I hope for the day when Young Women and Primary Presidents will be considered in the same light (though myself and other bishops of like mind probably aren't going to protest and petition the brethren for a revelation on the subject ).  

[juliann]

 

 

Unrelated. Handbook 2 (section 4.3, paragraph 3) allows me the latitude of inviting the Relief Society President to PEC meetings "as needed." For me, it's "needed" every Sunday, and I hope for the day when Young Women and Primary Presidents will be considered in the same light (though myself and other bishops of like mind probably aren't going to protest and petition the brethren for a revelation on the subject ).  

Excellent points!  I think the lascivious bishop thing has been overdone to the point of parody.  However, it would be beneficial to both the church and to any women involved to not put a women in front of a room of men for church discipline.

 

I think the issue with the above is that it gives bishops the choice of including women in decision making.  Our previous Stake RS Prez told the SP she wanted to included and he was grateful for her input.  The next RS Prez didn't want to be involved, so she isn't, so this isn't just a problem caused by male leaders.  Women shouldn't have to ask or be asked, or even be allowed to choose, they should be on the list of who must attend just like all others...in other words, treated "equally" rather than as an invited guest.

[Calm]

 The boys are just ignored and certainly feel anything but special.

You really think the boys are ignored in Church?  Young men are up in front of the congregation each week.  As far as I've seen the only contribution beyond giving talks that girls are seen to be making to the ward in general is an occasional musical number.  That does seem to outweigh guys doing it, at least in my ward since we lost our oboe and cello, but even there it is just a few girls performing rather than most of the girls getting a chance.

 

I love that my ward includes a young woman to give a scripture and spiritual thought when going to the shutins to help with sacrament, but I haven't heard of that in other wards much (if at all).

 

It may be true outside of Church, I have my doubts about somethings as there are specific measures that relate to confidence, etc. I'd like to see studies done of and not just measurement of achievement (as often lower esteem individuals may work harder in order to feel of value).

 

I'd like to see such studies specifically about LDS.  Last time I saw we were not at the same level as the general society when it came to women surpassing men in education.

Edited April 12, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 

 

Unrelated. Handbook 2 (section 4.3, paragraph 3) allows me the latitude of inviting the Relief Society President to PEC meetings "as needed." For me, it's "needed" every Sunday, and I hope for the day when Young Women and Primary Presidents will be considered in the same light (though myself and other bishops of like mind probably aren't going to protest and petition the brethren for a revelation on the subject ).  

I think more and more bishops are doing this so I wouldn't be surprised if it became official policy sometimes soon.  Is there a reason why you couldn't include the YW and P presidents on your own initiative (I don't know about policy that might restrict this, am curious, not suggesting that you do it…unless of course you think it is wise).

[Storm Rider]

You really think the boys are ignored in Church?  Young men are up in front of the congregation each week.  As far as I've seen the only contribution beyond giving talks that girls are seen to be making to the ward in general is an occasional musical number.  That does seem to outweigh guys doing it, at least in my ward since we lost our oboe and cello, but even there it is just a few girls performing rather than most of the girls getting a chance.

 

I love that my ward includes a young woman to give a scripture and spiritual thought when going to the shutins to help with sacrament, but I haven't heard of that in other wards much (if at all).

 

It may be true outside of Church, I have my doubts about somethings as there are specific measures that relate to confidence, etc. I'd like to see studies done of and not just measurement of achievement (as often lower esteem individuals may work harder in order to feel of value).

 

I'd like to see such studies specifically about LDS.  Last time I saw we were not at the same level as the general society when it came to women surpassing men in education.

 

I have not read or heard of any studies that are specifically about how LDS girls are doing versus LDS boys. What do you think is wrong with LDS girls and what differentiates how they are faring versus the boys?

[Derl Sanderson]

I think more and more bishops are doing this so I wouldn't be surprised if it became official policy sometimes soon.  Is there a reason why you couldn't include the YW and P presidents on your own initiative (I don't know about policy that might restrict this, am curious, not suggesting that you do it…unless of course you think it is wise).

 

Perhaps so. Given the easy access that everyone has to Handbook 2, there are plenty of (well-meaning?) people ready and able to point out where I overstep my bounds, so though I personally am wont to push the envelope, I try not to for the sake of unity.

[Derl Sanderson]

Coward!

[Calm]

I love the Handbook 2 being online, but the whole backseat bishop issue…just too bad that some people think they can do a better job.

 

I do have to admit to being ticked off at one bishop for not going by the Handbook, but that was a safety issue where a scout leader was not taking out another adult for an overnight camping trip and the kids were too young to drive (11-12 IIRC, but could have been 12-13).  Getting creative with stuff that isn't safety related doesn't usually bother me unless it is micromanaging or making work without listening to those actually doing the work on effectiveness.

 

Thank goodness Handbook 1 is still offline (though I have read that as well from front to back).

[Buzzard]

Thank goodness Handbook 1 is still offline (though I have read that as well from front to back).

In theory, it's offline. In reality, a quick Google search takes you to a PDF rendering of the entire handbook. It's been dissected by our enemies looking for every little nugget they can find an excuse to criticize.

[Calm]

Yea, it is offline as far as I am concerned and hopefully most other members as well.  

[MiserereNobis]

Perhaps so. Given the easy access that everyone has to Handbook 2, there are plenty of (well-meaning?) people ready and able to point out where I overstep my bounds, so though I personally am wont to push the envelope, I try not to for the sake of unity.

 

I gave you a rep point for your use of the word "wont." 

[readstoomuch]

Unfortunately, there are a number of studies comparing how men and women in the 18-25 age group are doing both inside and outside of the Church. In a number of different ways women are doing better. For example they go to college and graduate at a higher rate than their male peers. I actually worry quite a bit about young men that age.

[Calm]

 For example they go to college and graduate at a higher rate than their male peers. 

 

CFR for this is true for LDS, please.  Maybe I am behind in my reading, but I am pretty sure there are still fewer women getting their Bachelor's than men in our LDS culture (most likely due to early marriage).

[cinepro]

14. Church positions/gender....some positions require priesthood, some don't. Pretty well sorted out already.

 

And yet I've never seen a male Primary President or female Sunday School president.  I think the point is that things "sorted out" along pretty strict gender lines for many callings where it isn't necessary.