Response To "what Women Know"

[slamarwi]

And yet I've never seen a male Primary President or female Sunday School president.  I think the point is that things "sorted out" along pretty strict gender lines for many callings where it isn't necessary.

 

And you likely never will. We would have to substantially increase the number of men attending, since it requires two to even teach a primary class.

[Bernard Gui]

"I would like to see some evidence of the unbalance."

There is at least one Primary lesson each year on the Priesthood. Nothing comparable for the girls. In one of them, they have the boys stand up to get recognition from the girls about their future roles as Priesthood holders and iirc to encourage the girls to support them. Again nothing even close to this for the girls.

I think this conference change with the women leaders front and center was ideal given the small number.

There is of course the smaller number of female speakers at conference.

"5. Modesty/morality/sexual behavior....I don't see disparity"

Men (young men) are more often taught about controlling their thoughts (internal behaviour) while women are more often taught about controlling how they appear (external behaviour) to the point at times of being the gatekeepers of men's morality. Hopefully this is already being addressed given the difference between the latest Ensign and the previous one.

I would hope there is a at least one lesson a year on the Priesthood, since that is the power by which God

governs the universe. 

 

When we get down to bedrock, the problem is we believe in a male God, we believe in a male Savior, his son, and

we believe in a male Holy Spirit. Everything derives from this.

[Calm]

Not quite.

We also believe we are the literal spirit children of Heavenly Parents. Remove the possibility of a Mother God and one removes the literalness of that, of being made in the image of God, of God the Son being our Heavenly Brother and quite a few other things core to our doctrine.

[Calm]

"I would hope there is a at least one lesson a year on the Priesthood, since that is the power by which God

governs the universe."

I would to. What I find troubling given the reactions I hear reported from many of our children (it is the child's issue being reported that I am talking about, not the parents) is there is nothing close for girls.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

CFR for this is true for LDS, please.  Maybe I am behind in my reading, but I am pretty sure there are still fewer women getting their Bachelor's than men in our LDS culture (most likely due to early marriage).

Per this site BYU accepted 2507 men and 3019 women into its freshman class. This comes out to ~45% male enrollment. At graduation time, per BYU, 54% of all degrees go to men. Per wikipedia nationwide, 45% of bachelor degrees go to men.

Edited April 14, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Calm]

54% of all degrees go to men

 

So men are still graduating at a higher rate than women for LDS.  Thank you.

[Nofear]

So men are still graduating at a higher rate than women for LDS.  Thank you.

 

It is partly why BYU introduced the Bachelor of General Studies (https://ce.byu.edu/bgs/index.php). They dearly want more of the women to finish a degree even when marriage or other circumstances make doing so on campus less viable.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It shows how far we have to go in getting men ready to fully accept women, and that has nothing to do with the priesthood.

I reject that we as a church don't fully accept women. Perhaps it is some women that don't fully accept men?

 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

In my four years, no organization has had a greater budget than Young Women, followed closely by the Young Men. In bugetary outlay, those two are always five to six times larger than the next nearest auxillary. We certainly strive for parity in the other items listed in the critique.

In my ward the YW budget is the larges by far even over the YM's.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And yet I've never seen a male Primary President or female Sunday School president.  I think the point is that things "sorted out" along pretty strict gender lines for many callings where it isn't necessary.

And some of that should change. I don't see any reason why a sister cannot be Sunday School President.

[BlueDreams]

In my ward the YW budget is the larges by far even over the YM's.

 

Out of curiosity, how does the budget work with boyscout/high adventure related activities? I honestly don't have much of an idea.

[Scott Lloyd]

 

Scott Lloyd: Do the Church publications tally up all the boy/girl/man/woman/racewhatever/gender/age coverage each month? If not, can

I have that job? I just retired and have some extra time on my hands.

 

I don't know how the Church magazines (Ensign, Liahona, New Era, Friend) run their shop, but there is no such tallying going on at the Church News, which is a section of the Deseret News.

 

I don't plan to retire anytime soon (if ever) but the day some sort of quota system is instituted based on such tallying is the day I'm out the door.

 

I can tell you this: Of seven full-time staffers at the Church News, three are women, including the editor and the associate editor. And that doesn't take in the intern position, which usually is filled by a female college student. Also, we have an editorial assistant who divides her time between us, the features department and the enterprise team. She is invaluable and contributes much to the Church News operation.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Pahoran]

Surely you are aware that there have been significant changes to the words, either by removing them or changing them, just as there have been to garments.

 

The problem with your list, as well as their saying "to thoughtfully consider and earnestly pray,"  is the disdain.  Many of those points are reasonable and even needed. It is a great, great mistake to think that women are divided between those who want the priesthood and those who don't. There is a sizable number who want more inclusion but not the priesthood. So treating some of those concerns so dismissively isn't any more helpful than OW's methods.

 

I think the problem we face as a church is the attitude expressed in #4. It should not be unthinkable to even imagine 9 women and 9 men speakers.  It shows how far we have to go in getting men ready to fully accept women, and that has nothing to do with the priesthood.

Sorry Juliann, but for me the notion of gender-based "quotas" for Conference speakers is pretty much unthinkable.

I mean, if we're going to go down that road, why stop with gender? Shouldn't we also ensure each of the continents is fairly represented? That there are enough black, hispanic and asian speakers?

I enjoyed all of the talks in this past conference. But the ones I appreciated the most were the ones from the apostles and the members of the First Presidency. For me, that is what General Conference is really for, not to see some kind of "inclusiveness parade."

Regards,

Pahoran

[escott3564]

I reject that we as a church don't fully accept women. Perhaps it is some women that don't fully accept men?

 

How do you figure that?

[escott3564]

You really think the boys are ignored in Church?  Young men are up in front of the congregation each week.  As far as I've seen the only contribution beyond giving talks that girls are seen to be making to the ward in general is an occasional musical number.  That does seem to outweigh guys doing it, at least in my ward since we lost our oboe and cello, but even there it is just a few girls performing rather than most of the girls getting a chance.

 

I love that my ward includes a young woman to give a scripture and spiritual thought when going to the shutins to help with sacrament, but I haven't heard of that in other wards much (if at all).

 

It may be true outside of Church, I have my doubts about somethings as there are specific measures that relate to confidence, etc. I'd like to see studies done of and not just measurement of achievement (as often lower esteem individuals may work harder in order to feel of value).

 

I'd like to see such studies specifically about LDS.  Last time I saw we were not at the same level as the general society when it came to women surpassing men in education.

 

I think that more recognition for young women is being done on an individual ward basis.  It would be cool if this was done consistently.  In my ward, when either a boy OR a girl graduates from primary and is going into Priesthood or the Young Women program, they are recognized.  Also, in Primary, there is a big deal made of whomever is graduating from primary and turning 12, whether they are girls or boys.

[Calm]

Sorry Juliann, but for me the notion of gender-based "quotas" for Conference speakers is pretty much unthinkable.

That one expects that we are only going to get 9 each of speakers through quotas speaks to the heart of the issue, imo.

Edited April 15, 2014 by calmoriah

[Pahoran]

That one expects that we are only going to get 9 each of speakers through quotas speaks to the heart of the issue, imo.

Well, I'm pretty sure there are more than 18 talks per conference, but I don't think that's exactly the heart of the issue.

Conference, for me, is not merely about hearing great talks, although they are certainly a cut or two above some of the mumbling youth and waffling ancients we might get at home. (Mind you, we have some pretty good speakers, both young and old, in our ward too.)

No, for me it is about receiving the Word of the Lord from His authorised servants.

And I'm convinced that that is more important than any male/female ratio.

The OW crowd (what a great acronym!) seem deathly afraid that they aren't being "represented." Well, neither am I; what's unique about the leaders of the Church is that they don't represent us.

They represent the Lord.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Bernard Gui]

"I would hope there is a at least one lesson a year on the Priesthood, since that is the power by which God

governs the universe."

I would to. What I find troubling given the reactions I hear reported from many of our children (it is the child's issue being reported that I am talking about, not the parents) is there is nothing close for girls.

What would you suggest?

[Bernard Gui]

Not quite.

We also believe we are the literal spirit children of Heavenly Parents. Remove the possibility of a Mother God and one removes the literalness of that, of being made in the image of God, of God the Son being our Heavenly Brother and quite a few other things core to our doctrine.

I agree, but I don't think Mother God has any bearing on the Melchizedek priesthood. It is after the order of the Son of God

and has existed for eternity. At times it has been passed down from father to son here on earth, as it was in heaven.

Being the first born son of the Father, Jesus occupies his position by divine investiture....Father to Son. It is the power that

governs the universe....and the Church.....and the family.

[Bernard Gui]

And some of that should change. I don't see any reason why a sister cannot be Sunday School President.

I'll see your Sister Sunday School President and raise you just eliminating Sunday School. It seems

redundant to me. A Two Hour Block has a certain ring to it.

[Bernard Gui]

I don't know how the Church magazines (Ensign, Liahona, New Era, Friend) run their shop, but there is no such tallying going on at the Church News, which is a section of the Deseret News.

 

I don't plan to retire anytime soon (if ever) but the day some sort of quota system is instituted such as you imply in the above question is the day I'm out the door.

 

I can tell you this: Of seven full-time staffers at the Church News, three are women, including the editor and the associate editor. And that doesn't take in the intern position, which usually is filled by a female college student. Also, we have an editorial assistant who divides her time between us, the features department and the enterprise team. She is invaluable and contributes much to the Church News operation.

Thanks, Scott. I didn't think for a minute the church would count beans like that, but as a long-time public school teacher, I know the bean counters do tally pictures in textbooks and workbooks. It seems the only way to fulfill one of the women's demands is to count the stories and pictures and adjust for perfect equity. 

[Bernard Gui]

I think that more recognition for young women is being done on an individual ward basis.  It would be cool if this was done consistently.  In my ward, when either a boy OR a girl graduates from primary and is going into Priesthood or the Young Women program, they are recognized.  Also, in Primary, there is a big deal made of whomever is graduating from primary and turning 12, whether they are girls or boys.

Ditto my ward. 

[Bernard Gui]

Well, I'm pretty sure there are more than 18 talks per conference, but I don't think that's exactly the heart of the issue.

Conference, for me, is not merely about hearing great talks, although they are certainly a cut or two above some of the mumbling youth and waffling ancients we might get at home. (Mind you, we have some pretty good speakers, both young and old, in our ward too.)

No, for me it is about receiving the Word of the Lord from His authorised servants.

And I'm convinced that that is more important than any male/female ratio.

The OW crowd (what a great acronym!) seem deathly afraid that they aren't being "represented." Well, neither am I; what's unique about the leaders of the Church is that they don't represent us.

They represent the Lord.

Regards,

Pahoran

You are still alive! And kicking, it appears. As usual, you have nailed the issue to the wall. The purpose of general conference is for the gathered elders and saints to do the church business and be instructed as explained in D&C 20. 

[Bernard Gui]

That one expects that we are only going to get 9 each of speakers through quotas speaks to the heart of the issue, imo.

 

Ultimatum #4:

 

Invite women in Church leadership positions to speak and pray during General Conference in numbers equal to the participation of men.

 

 

There are 9 sisters in the presidencies of the three auxiliaries. In order for them to speak/pray in numbers equal to the men, either the men speakers must be limited to 9, or there must be more women in general leadership positions....oh wait....that's what this is all about: women ordained to the priesthood, sister prophets, apostles, and seventies.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[BlueDreams]

Well, I'm pretty sure there are more than 18 talks per conference, but I don't think that's exactly the heart of the issue.

Conference, for me, is not merely about hearing great talks, although they are certainly a cut or two above some of the mumbling youth and waffling ancients we might get at home. (Mind you, we have some pretty good speakers, both young and old, in our ward too.)

No, for me it is about receiving the Word of the Lord from His authorised servants.

And I'm convinced that that is more important than any male/female ratio.

The OW crowd (what a great acronym!) seem deathly afraid that they aren't being "represented." Well, neither am I; what's unique about the leaders of the Church is that they don't represent us.

They represent the Lord.

Regards,

Pahoran

There was 25....6-7 in each session. That's if you don't include priesthood session or the women's meeting. 15 of those spots are for the apostles/presidency and I'm glad for it. So you have 10 open spaces..2 are given to women. All who speak in conference are authorized servants to impart the word of the Lord, by them being called to speak before the church. I am excited to hear from the apostles and prophets, I learn from them. But I learn from the other speakers as well greatly. I get excited to see international and minority members. I was excited to see female prayers. I would be happy to hear from more women as well.  

 

The reason is that they do represent us in the Lord. I learn from their diverse experiences the varying expressions of God in one's life. And the application of the same Gospel will differ from Elder Packer's to Elder Dube's. Is it absolutely necessary? No. Do either of them immediately represent me? No. Is it absolutely enriching? most definitely...it assures me that there truly is more than one way to represent the lord. In my experience women have beautifully represented the Lord in their lives in a variety of manifestations and experience...many that are overlooked or often used as almost some sort of prelude to their spouse. I would treasure to hear even just one more voice of a woman in Conference...especially as their boards potentially expand to include other areas. I would treasure literally just 1 or 2 more voices in Women's conf. so that the time is equal in duration to priesthood meeting. It isn't some gender politicking....it's a deep desire to hear the voice of God from what is supposed to be the other half of the image of God. That's all. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited April 15, 2014 by BlueDreams