Answers To Bobbieaware's Question About Female Ordination

[HappyJackWagon]

To avoid derailing the Timpanogas Temple thread I thought I'd take a stab at the questions BobbieAware asked. *I've added numbers to the multiple questions I'll attempt to address.

A bit off point, but can anybody here please explain to me why the women of OW have been pressing to be ordained to the priesthood, 1- when from what we already know for sure women are going to be ordained priestesses, not priests? 2- Based on my temple experience, I have every reason to believe the priestesshood is exclusively for women, while the priesthood is exclusively for men, and that these two divinely-ordained repositories of divine authority are not interchangeable organizations.

3- Could it be OW's big mistake is that they"ve been campaigning to receive the priesthood, when if they had had their wits about them it would have much wiser to press for a fuller revelation of the role of priestesses? I'm perplexed as to,why OW seems to have missed this obvious point, because 4- it's very likely OW would have been much better received if they had pressed for a fuller explanation of the role of priestesses instead of campaigning to be ordained to the all-male priesthood.

So why did OW miss something so obvious, and by so doing sabotage their own movement? 5- The only possible answer I can come up with is that OW is a modern feminist movement, and feminists won't settle for anything less than total equality with men. 6- And if it does ultimately turns out the holy priesthood and holy priestesshood are two distinct but closely related organizations, it will mean OW has been futilely and foolishly barking up the wrong tree.

1- Knowing that women are ordained to become a priestess and queen in the next life is not the same thing as being one in this life. They do not have comparable authority to act and lead in this life. To my understanding OW is seeking an equal voice and opportunity to interact with men in this life and help to lead this church.

2- For men the priesthood is eternal (including the here and now) whereas "priestesshood" is only in the next life. This does not allow for equality in this life.

3- Interesting question but it's semantic. They have requested further revelation about the nature of women's role in the priesthood. It just wasn't worded in the way you suggest. But if the prophet revealed greater knowledge about a woman's role in the priesthood it may well have included information about the future office of priestess. (Unless you're talking about the 2nd Annointing, the office of priestess is only in the next life)

4- I'm not sure why we would expect the question about priestesses to be received better, unless it is assumed to be less controversial because of the timing of the ordination. IOW- maybe it's not as controversial because it's only asking about future ordinations as priestess in the next life and therefore has no immediate ramifications to the organization and structure of the church

5- Of course OW is a modern feminist movement. Is there any doubt about that? I believe it is natural and expected that a feminist will seek equality with men. This is not a negative thing.

6- OW is seeking revelation about the ordination of women. If there is more information and revelation to be received, does God require that they ask the question in precisely the right way? Or could the brethren take the general topic of female ordination to the Lord and receive direction about ordination to the priesthood in this life and also information about female ordination to the office of priestess in the next.

* One last comment- The temple brings into focus the issue of women and the priesthood in a couple of ways.

a-Women utiilize priesthood authority and power to perform priesthood ordinances in the temple but do so under the direction of a priesthood authority with keys; the temple president. This exercise of priesthood is really no different than any other act of priesthood which is always authorized by a priesthood authority. But women aren't given the opportunity to direct the work or hold the keys. So clearly women already exercise the priesthood even though they don't hold priesthood office. Clarification on how this works would be great. If ordination isn't necessary to perform priesthood functions, but only the assignment by someone holding priesthood keys is required, then why is anyone except for a keyholder ever ordained? Wouldn't this work for men as well.

b-Women are ordained to "become" queens and priestesses at a later time. In the 2nd annointing they are ordained as queens and priestesses, but queens and priestesses to whom? God? No. They are ordained to be a queen and priestess to their husband, essentially receiving his priesthood. Holding the priesthood of a mortal man would seem to be less than holding the priesthood of God.

[thesometimesaint]

Women and men are equal unto God. We just have different roles to play.

[Five Solas]

I've had this thought in my head for a while, and though it may be a little off-topic--this seems as good a place to put it as any. 

 

If LDS leadership were to grant the asks of OW, there'd be at least one huge advantage:  Young teenage LDS girls wouldn't be required to submit themselves to questions about their "chastity" from a grown man.  Women could conduct the "worthiness interviews" for other women.  That would be a much healthier dynamic, or at least it seems to me.  

 

--Erik

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

5- Of course OW is a modern feminist movement. Is there any doubt about that? I believe it is natural and expected that a feminist will seek equality with men. This is not a negative thing.

 

It is not a negative thing, but it is not important and it is a waste of time. It is also not negative that only men have the priesthood, most LDS women don´t want the priesthood and are very happy about that.

 

What is wrong that only us men have the priesthood? Do women get less income, less education, or less success because of that?  LDS women don't feel inferior, in reality they feel more important.

 

PS It is wrong for OW to disrespect LDS religious culture.

Edited September 17, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

I've had this thought in my head for a while, and though it may be a little off-topic--this seems as good a place to put it as any. 

 

If LDS leadership were to grant the asks of OW, there'd be at least one huge advantage:  Young teenage LDS girls wouldn't be required to submit themselves to questions about their "chastity" from a grown man.  Women could conduct the "worthiness interviews" for other women.  That would be a much healthier dynamic, or at least it seems to me.  

 

Is it wrong for medical doctors to see a young patient of the opposite sex?

 

Let's assume it is a problem, there can be other solutions for that. The Bishop can tell YM to talk to their YM president, then the YM president can report the situation to the Bishop without details

Edited September 18, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[CA Steve]

It is not a negative thing, but it is not important and it is a waste of time. It is also not negative that only men have the priesthood, most LDS women don´t want the priesthood and are very happy about that.

 

What is wrong that only us men have the priesthood? Do women get less income, less education, or less success because of that?  LDS women don't feel inferior, in reality they feel more important.

I nominate this as post of the year in the category of "Least amount of words used in a post which mixes stereotypical male chauvinistic cliches with ignorance".

[TheSkepticChristian]

I nominate this as post of the year in the category of "Least amount of words used in a post which mixes stereotypical male chauvinistic cliches with ignorance".

 

Nice ad hominem. What if I tell you that polygamy is cool?  Guess what, it is true the LDS women are happier than LDS men

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-04-02-mormon-depression_x.htm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0277953684900066

 

Now you give me the data that contradicts my conclusion. LDS women don't care about OW movement because it is a waste of time.

 

I bet you disagree with this new study. "Marine Corps study says units with women fall short on combat skills"

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-marines-women-20150912-story.html

Edited September 17, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[HappyJackWagon]

 

It is not a negative thing, but it is not important and it is a waste of time. It is also not negative that only men have the priesthood, most LDS women don´t want the priesthood and are very happy about that.

 

What is wrong that only us men have the priesthood? Do women get less income, less education, or less success because of that?  LDS women don't feel inferior, in reality they feel more important.

 

PS It is wrong for OW to disrespect LDS religious culture.

There's so much to respond to. Equality is a waste of time? Ok...I guess.

Logic- Because some women don't want the priesthood and are happy without it no woman should have the priesthood because they will be happy without it = Because some women don't want to work outside the home and are happy without working outside the home, no woman should work outside the home and they should be happy about it.

Do women get less income, less education or sucess? This has nothing to do with the priesthood. It's a terrible argument. But women do get LESS opportunity to lead in the church, less opportunity to perform spiritual ordinances, and less opportunity to have their voices heard as equal peers in councils.

Some women may not feel inferior with the status quo, but some do. Some may feel more important, but some don't. They feel less important. So because SOME feel good we should expect ALL to feel good about the status quo?

Is there something about LDS religious "culture" that is sacrosanct and above the questioning or challenge of members? It is a "culture". Culture changes constantly.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Nice ad hominem. What if I tell you that polygamy is cool?  Guess what, it is true the LDS women are happier than LDS men

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-04-02-mormon-depression_x.htm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0277953684900066

 

Now you give me the data that contradicts my conclusion. LDS women don't care about OW movement because it is a waste of time.

 

I bet you disagree with this new study. "Marine Corps study says units with women fall short on combat skills"

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-marines-women-20150912-story.html

Your continual problem stems from your presumption that "LDS Women" are all uniform clones of each other. There is diversity within the female population both inside and outside the church so making statements as if ALL are in agreement is a major fallacy.

[TheSkepticChristian]

 There's so much to respond to. Equality is a waste of time? Ok...I guess

 

It is a waste of time because LDS women don't feel there is inequality in the church, even most LDS feminists don't see inequality. 

 

 Do women get less income, less education or sucess? This has nothing to do with the priesthood. It's a terrible argument. But women do get LESS opportunity to lead in the church, less opportunity to perform spiritual ordinances, and less opportunity to have their voices heard as equal peers in councils.

 

Do you have a study that shows that a significant number of LDS women agree with you? Who are you to dictate what the LDS church should do? LDS women are very happy with their religion.

 

 Some women may not feel inferior with the status quo, but some do.

 

No problem, they can join another church. It is not hard, it is not like trying to find a new job.

 

 ecause some women don't want to work outside the home and are happy without working outside the home, no woman should work outside the home and they should be happy about it..

 

No, if a women wants the priesthood, she can join another church, it is that simple. I will respect an LDS women for that decision.

There are other problems that need to be fix, like LDS judging former LDS, but OW is not one of them.

 

 Your continual problem stems from your presumption that "LDS Women" are all uniform clones of each other. There is diversity within the female population both inside and outside the church so making statements as if ALL are in agreement is a major fallacy.

 

 

but about 99% of the believing LDS women don't care about the OW movement, they actually want it to go away.

Edited September 17, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[HappyJackWagon]

 

It is a waste of time because LDS women don't feel there is inequality in the church, even most LDS feminists don't see inequality. 

 

 

Do you have a study that shows that a significant number of LDS women agree with you? Who are you to dictate what the LDS church should do? LDS women are very happy with their religion.

 

 

No problem, they can join another church.

 

 

No, if a women wants the priesthood, she can join another church, it is that simple. I will respect a LDS women for that decision.

There are other problems that need to be fix, like LDS judging former LDS, but OW is not one of them.

 

 

but about 99% of the believing LDS women don't care about the OW movement, they actually want it to go away.

It's hard to take you seriously when you continue to make such universal statements like "LDS women don't feel there is inequality in the church, even most LDS feminists don't see inequality." I'm curious why you think most LDS feminists don't see inequality. My experience with mormon feminists has been very different.

You attitude of "if they don't like it they can join another church" feels very 3rd grade to me. Perhaps you're unaware that people who love something, like the church, are much more likely to stick with it and even try to help it grow and improve in ways they have power to effect. Your dismissal of people who disagree with you is sad. Fortunately there is far greater compassion found in most wards and stakes even if this board doesn't always reflect that.

"Do you have a study that shows that a significant number of LDS women agree with you? Who are you to dictate what the LDS church should do? LDS women are very happy with their religion."

No. I don't have a study showing how many women would agree with me. I never claimed to. I believe I've said "some" which is not "all" or "most". If you want to argue that "some" women do not agree with me I'll leave it to you to prove. Good luck.

Who am I to dictate to the church what they should do? I'm no one. But then I haven't dictated anything to the church, have I. I really think you need to read more closely. Again, stating that LDS women are a uniform group who are all happy with every aspect of the religion is a very simple and juvenile way to look at it.

[ttribe]

but about 99% of the believing LDS women don't care about the OW movement, they actually want it to go away.

 

Where did you get this "99%" number?

[TheSkepticChristian]

 I'm curious why you think most LDS feminists don't see inequality. My experience with mormon feminists has been very different.

 

Of course LDS feminists online do support the OW movement. LOL

 

You said, "Perhaps you're unaware that people who love something, like the church, are much more likely to stick with it"

 

but that is not what the data shows. Only 4% of the OW supporters are very active in the church. So because of the data and evidence I insist that they should join another church.

 

 

 

You attitude of "if they don't like it they can join another church" feels very 3rd grade to me. Perhaps you're unaware that people who love something, like the church, are much more likely to stick with it and even try to help it grow and improve in ways they have power to effect. Your dismissal of people who disagree with you is sad.

 

There are thousands of different opinions, the LDS church can't make everyone happy. Think!

 

I personally think the LDS church should teach about Evolution and Global Warming, but the church doesn't have to make me happy.

 

LDS believing women (99%) are happy with the church, and they like it how it is. 

Studies have shown that active LDS women are happier

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-04-02-mormon-depression_x.htm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0277953684900066

Edited September 17, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Gray]

Of course LDS feminists online do support the OW movement. LOL

 

You said, "Perhaps you're unaware that people who love something, like the church, are much more likely to stick with it"

 

but that is not what the data shows. Only 4% of the OW supporters are very active in the church. So because of the data and evidence I insist that they should join another church.

 

 

 

There are thousands of different opinions, the LDS church can't make everyone happy. Think!

 

I personally think the LDS church should teach about Evolution and Global Warming, but the church doesn't have to make me happy.

 

LDS believing women (99%) are happy with the church, and they like it how it is. 

Studies have shown that active LDS women are happier

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-04-02-mormon-depression_x.htm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0277953684900066

 

A lot has happened since 2011. I would not be surprised if those numbers have shifted since then. At least a bit. 

[CA Steve]

I am curious how a study done in 2011 can be used to evaluate the opinions people hold on an organization started in 2013.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Of course LDS feminists online do support the OW movement. LOL

 

You said, "Perhaps you're unaware that people who love something, like the church, are much more likely to stick with it"

 

but that is not what the data shows. Only 4% of the OW supporters are very active in the church. So because of the data and evidence I insist that they should join another church.

 

 

 

There are thousands of different opinions, the LDS church can't make everyone happy. Think!

 

I personally think the LDS church should teach about Evolution and Global Warming, but the church doesn't have to make me happy.

 

LDS believing women (99%) are happy with the church, and they like it how it is. 

Studies have shown that active LDS women are happier

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-04-02-mormon-depression_x.htm

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0277953684900066

 

You're playing fast and loose with the facts here. From a 2011 study that shows 4% of people with high religious committment supporting female ordination you extrapolate that 4% of Ordain Women supporters are very active in church. Either you don't understand your own documentation, or you are intentionally trying to mislead people with false assertions.

In 2011 I would have been against female ordination whereas today I am for it. Very active. I think that number is shifting but I don't think there's documentation to prove that.

[TheSkepticChristian]

 You're playing fast and loose with the facts here. From a 2011 study that shows 4% of people with high religious committment supporting female ordination you extrapolate that 4% of Ordain Women supporters are very active in church. Either you don't understand your own documentation, or you are intentionally trying to mislead people with false assertions.

 

Okay, my mistake, I am not afraid to admit it when I am wrong. However, only 8% of American LDS women agree with you according to 2011 Pew.

 

 You're playing fast and loose with the facts

 

I think those numbers are friendly to your opinion. Notice that they are USA numbers. In Mexico and South America I think the numbers of OW fans are even lower. That is why I say that about 99% of believing LDS women don't agree with or even heard of the OW movement. Most LDS converts from Mexico and South America used to be Catholic, do you think they would support the OW movement? 'would" because most of them never heard of the OW movement, and are not interested.

 

 

n 2011 I would have been against female ordination whereas today I am for it. Very active. I think that number is shifting but I don't think there's documentation to prove that.

 

Not significantly

 

  Your dismissal of people who disagree with you is sad.

 

I don't dismiss the people that disagree with me, I simply think the church can't make everyone happy because there are thousands of different opinions.

I feel the church should talk about climate change, it is a far more important issue, but the church doesn't have to do what I say.

Edited September 17, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[bsjkki]

I have mixed feelings about female ordination but do see rampant sexism at church.  I'm still pondering about this topic and have no firm opinions except their is a problem with the marginalization of women and their opinions in the church and how we teach the youth.  Having four daughters in the Young Women's program quickly made a feminist out of a very happy, stay-at-home mom of five.  I was perfectly happy with the status quo in 2011 but not so much now.  You cannot unsee what you've seen or unlearn what you've learned even if it would make life a lot easier.  While thinking about female ordination, I had the thought, "You could never have teenage boys sit down with a female Bishop and discuss sexual topics. That would never work!"    It took me a minute to realize we ask that of the girls in the church-many of whom have been sexually manipulated,taken advantage of, abused, and assaulted by men. 

[Tacenda]

http://feministmormonhousewivespodcast.org/episode-138-meet-judith-dushku/

 

An interview with Judith Dushku, an editor with the Women's Exponent II.  She discusses coming upon an old Women's Exponent that was written by several early Mormon feminists in the 1870's.  In their writings they were supporting women's rights among other things.  One of the writers was Emmeline B. Wells, the fifth Relief Society president. 

 

Judith was part of a group of women who wanted to learn about women in church history and not being able to find much.  Leonard Arrington asked her to do some research, and that is when she found it so difficult until they discovered the Women's Exponet I on the shelf of a library at Harvard.  There it sat on a bottom shelf, yellowed newspaper exposed and not protected.  They were able to check out several rolls of it and take it to their next meeting and read it.  Later on it was donated to a museum and later destroyed because they needed more shelf space and just put it on micro film, which is such a shame.   

 

Then the women tried to get it in the Ensign, they thought the leaders would be so excited.  But they didn't want to publish it.  So they published it under Emmeline Press.  It was all about Mormon women in Utah.  Then soon Utah State University wanted it and other schools.  But from the church it was ignored. 

 

Then Judith wanted to write a biography of Emmeline and she was close to giving birth.  She talks about having her water break and rushing home, when she got there she received a phone call from BYU Library and called Judith to see if she wanted copies of Emmeline Wells diaries.  They had heard she was interested in her and was a scholar/writer.  So Judith started reading the diaries and in the mean time had written another article.  And someone had seen it and asked her to speak at the BYU's women's conference in 1977.  She gave the keynote address, and told the women about her findings about the heroic women.  But at the end of the year a BYU women's committee was discontinued and she was no longer asked to speak.

 

She continued in this group and continued to write.  But in the early 1980's they started to get push back.  She mentions the women that wrote the book "Mormon Enigma", that some of the church leaders weren't happy with it, but it got great reviews.  

 

Then the ERA was in full swing, when Sonia Johnson was ex'd.  Judith began to worry she would be also and soon began to feel like she feared men with authority over her.  There is much more, I'm practically telling the whole story.  But she did say she felt nearly driven out of the church with her feminism in one of her wards, but she wouldn't leave.  Luckily they divided the stake and she was put in a different ward.  It turned out much better for her, even being called to be the Stake Relief Society president in 2009.         

 

Why I think this is important is because I don't see the current LDS women even aware of these early Mormon feminists.  It's no wonder that the survey in 2011 was the way it is.  But maybe there are ways in the church for women to discuss feminist issues without fear, that I don't know about.  I know the FMH website is probably not the safest place since there are a lot of things that could lead someone to disbelief in the church on their website.            

Edited September 17, 2015 by Tacenda

[ttribe]

I think those numbers are friendly to your opinion. Notice that they are USA numbers. In Mexico and South America I think the numbers of OW fans are even lower. That is why I say that about 99% of believing LDS women don't agree with or even heard of the OW movement. Most LDS converts from Mexico and South America used to be Catholic, do you think they would support the OW movement? 'would" because most of them never heard of the OW movement, and are not interested.

 

Since you didn't answer my direct question on this 99% number, and now you are saying what I bolded above, I believe I can reasonably conclude you are making up this 99% number.  If you are going to refer to all of these stats as hard numbers, you certainly shouldn't commingle them with a made-up number that forms the primary basis for your argument.

Edited September 17, 2015 by ttribe

[Russell C McGregor]

I've had this thought in my head for a while, and though it may be a little off-topic--this seems as good a place to put it as any. 

 

If LDS leadership were to grant the asks of OW, there'd be at least one huge advantage:  Young teenage LDS girls wouldn't be required to submit themselves to questions about their "chastity" from a grown man.  Women could conduct the "worthiness interviews" for other women.  That would be a much healthier dynamic, or at least it seems to me.  

 

--Erik

Why does "chastity" appear in scare quotes? Doesn't your version of Protestantism believe in such a thing?

And as you know, the scare-mongering about worthiness interviews (no scare quotes necessary) is a beat-up. As a professional demagogue, you of course need to exploit it to the hilt, but informed people know there is nothing to it. I suggest you save it for your real audience.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Why does "chastity" appear in scare quotes? Doesn't your version of Protestantism believe in such a thing?

And as you know, the scare-mongering about worthiness interviews (no scare quotes necessary) is a beat-up. As a professional demagogue, you of course need to exploit it to the hilt, but informed people know there is nothing to it. I suggest you save it for your real audience.

 

Such a convoluted way to say you think there is "nothing" to the fears people have about worthiness interviews. But I am impressed you were able to work in 7 insults in such a short span.

By claiming there is "nothing" to the worries and risks in worthiness interviews means that 1- you believe everyone who has ever had a harmful experience is lying or 2- you simply don't care if they're harmful. Which is it?

[Russell C McGregor]

 

 

Such a convoluted way to say you think there is "nothing" to the fears people have about worthiness interviews. But I am impressed you were able to work in 7 insults in such a short span.

By claiming there is "nothing" to the worries and risks in worthiness interviews means that 1- you believe everyone who has ever had a harmful experience is lying or 2- you simply don't care if they're harmful. Which is it?

 

Neither of the above. You have indulged the fallacy of the false dilemma.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Neither of the above. You have indulged the fallacy of the false dilemma.

 

Good. Then if you accept that not everyone is a liar (meaning that there is at least some truth to the harm experienced by some in worthiness interviews) AND you care about the harm that is caused, would you please explain why you feel there is "nothing" to the worries about worthiness interviews?

[TheSkepticChristian]

Since you didn't answer my direct question on this 99% number, and now you are saying what I bolded above, I believe I can reasonably conclude you are making up this 99% number.  If you are going to refer to all of these stats as hard numbers, you certainly shouldn't commingle them with a made-up number that forms the primary basis for your argument.

 

LOL I simply think it is about about 99% of believing LDS women that don't care about the OW movement. The OW movement won't end poverty, world hunger, global warming, depression, real inequality, racism, sexism, violence, discrimination, and wars. I still insist that OW is a waste of time, and most LDS men and women agree. Please leave LDS priesthood culture and tradition alone, it harms no one.

 

 

 you please explain why you feel there is "nothing" to the worries about worthiness interviews?

 

See post 5

Edited September 18, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian