Kathryn Skaggs: The Gender Role Battle Comes To Primary

[Tacenda]

Cal, you quoted something about Joseph F. Smith. The other day I read someone saying that he was domestically violent to his wife. Don't know how true, just something about the rule of thumb and using something smaller than a thumb to swat or hit (?) her with. Do you know anything about it? I tried to find something but couldn't, it's hard to believe. But maybe the women were treated like children back then and had to obey their husbands, or else.

[Buckeye]

Cal, you quoted something about Joseph F. Smith. The other day I read someone saying that he was domestically violent to his wife. Don't know how true, just something about the rule of thumb and using something smaller than a thumb to swat or hit (?) her with. Do you know anything about it? I tried to find something but couldn't, it's hard to believe. But maybe the women were treated like children back then and had to obey their husbands, or else.

 

I'm not aware of any allegation of abuse against Joseph F. Smith. FWIW, here are his official thoughts on the subject: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-f-smith/chapter-28?lang=eng

 

Also, there is dispute as to the origin of "rule of thumb." Two leading theories are (1) engineering measurement and (2) a limit on the size of stick with which a man could beat his wife and family (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb) Here's hoping that theory 1 prevails.

[Tacenda]

Thanks Buckeye! Just didn't know how things could have been back then. I'll take the first answer that JSF was loving and urged others to be also.

[Rain]

Verse 4:

I’ll love and serve my family and be

A good example to each fam’ly member.

And when I am a mom or dad, so glad,

I’ll help my fam’ly remember:

I wonder if some people are missing this verse. I'm sure some don't like that the church "always teaches that women are servants in the family." Here it is teaching that both sexes should be serving and loving their families.

[The Nehor]

IF Joseph Smith will have all the women sealed to him as wives in the eternities, then I very much doubt that all the dozens of parents in that family relationship will preside equally as a committee.  I doubt very much that Abraham sits in committee with Sarah, Hagar and Keturah (and any other non-recorded wives).  I doubt that Joseph Fielding Smith sits in committee with his three wives and all have an equal say.

And IF Christ ends up being a polygamist as taught in the early days, I sincerely doubt that he sits in committee as equal with Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene. 

Why? Jacob called a family council with his wives Leah and Rachel to decide what to do about Laban and all agreed.

It is only concubines that do not get any input.

[Buckeye]

Why? Jacob called a family council with his wives Leah and Rachel to decide what to do about Laban and all agreed.

It is only concubines that do not get any input.

 

This is what I love about this board. Start with a post regarding a primary children's song, and within only 2 pages of comments we are on the subject of whether Male gods will need to consult with their wife(s) and concubine(s) in running the galaxy.

[katherine the great]

Not sure why or how it works out the way it does but a child fears punishment by the father more than the mother and as such realizes the father is the law maker in a family. The father is the protector also and it may have something to do with it all.

That is so not a fact.  I was waaaaayyyyyyy more afraid of my mom than I ever was of my dad.  Now if you had stated that a child fears punishment from a stepfather more than the mother I would accept that as a generality based on empirical evidence.

[katherine the great]

 I doubt very much that Abraham sits in committee with Sarah, Hagar and Keturah (and any other non-recorded wives).  I doubt that Joseph Fielding Smith sits in committee with his three wives and all have an equal say.

And IF Christ ends up being a polygamist as taught in the early days, I sincerely doubt that he sits in committee as equal with Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene. 

 

I think the President with his counselor(s) is a much more sensible explanation, offensive as it may be to our post 1960's attitudes (because you know, I'm sure that last 50 years of cultural change is so much more correct than the 5950 years of the world and the 6 previous dispensations of the fulness of the gospel).

 

I disagree with you. Besides the fact that yes, doubting the equality of women to men is very offensive, the proclamation says that the father is to "preside."  I can't count the times our Bishop has "presided" at a meeting and never said a word.    It is the person who is conducting who is the voice.  So maybe a better way to say it is that dad presides but mom can conduct.  

[katherine the great]

Cal, you quoted something about Joseph F. Smith. The other day I read someone saying that he was domestically violent to his wife. Don't know how true, just something about the rule of thumb and using something smaller than a thumb to swat or hit (?) her with. Do you know anything about it? I tried to find something but couldn't, it's hard to believe. But maybe the women were treated like children back then and had to obey their husbands, or else.

Oh that is so unfair.  He was trying to keep her from jumping out a window.

[JLHPROF]

Why not?  Do the wives not care as much for the children as Abraham?  Are they somehow less smart or less experienced given that they are all one now and perfect?  

 

What is begin of one heart and one mind if what one person wants or cares about or says is not only different and more important than another's?

 

So their opinions don't matter to him.  He never even really has to talk to them…what is marriage exactly again?  What a wonderful eternal life to look forward to…Dad goes off to take to the guys and the women get to gather around at home wondering what the next big decision will be.

 

These are all perfect beings, of one heart and one mind…why wouldn't they all be equal to each other?

 

 

I disagree with you. Besides the fact that yes, doubting the equality of women to men is very offensive, the proclamation says that the father is to "preside."  I can't count the times our Bishop has "presided" at a meeting and never said a word.    It is the person who is conducting who is the voice.  So maybe a better way to say it is that dad presides but mom can conduct.  

 

This is a lovely notion, but it doesn't fit with scripture or eternal pattern

I 100% believe that wives are equal in power and authority with husbands.  I do.  I believe Heavenly Mother(s) hold just as much authority as Heavenly Father.  But they don't preside.

 

Just as I believe all 15 Apostles in the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency hold the same priesthood.

But there is only one President.  There is only ever one who presides.  Nowhere in all of scripture do you find two people presiding together exactly equally.  Christ will receive EVERYTHING his Father has, but his Father will still preside over Christ.

You can stick any two Deacons in an empty classroom and according to priesthood order, one of them presides.  There cannot be two presiding authorities that are exactly equal.

 

It's not an issue of authority. 

And yes, I am sure they will be all of one mind, and counsel together.  Members of any quorum, family, council, group, ward, organization, etc, etc can all be of equal standing, one mind, and provide their counsel.

But the scriptures are clear that whenever there are two, one must preside. 

 

Definition of preside - "be in the position of authority in a meeting or gathering."

It doesn't matter who is conducting the meeting or whether the presiding authority says a word.  They are there to preside.

And yes, sure, Mom can conduct, but Dad always presides.

[Buckeye]

 ... I believe Heavenly Mother(s) hold just as much authority as Heavenly Father.  But they don't preside. ...

 

...  Definition of preside - "be in the position of authority in a meeting or gathering." ....

 

 

I'm not sure I understand these two point. If two people have equal authority, and if preside means to "be in the position of authority," why can both not preside? If you're correct, than it can't really be said that both people have the same amount of "authority."

[JLHPROF]

I'm not sure I understand these two point. If two people have equal authority, and if preside means to "be in the position of authority," why can both not preside? If you're correct, than it can't really be said that both people have the same amount of "authority."

 

Yes, it can.  I explained this.

You can take any two Deacons, put them in a room together and according to priesthood order, one will preside.

You can take all 15 Apostles and one of them presides as President of the Church.

You can take all the Gods in the Eloheim and one presides as the Head God.

They have identical offices and therefore power.   Perhaps it is wrong to say they have the same authority.  Perhaps it it better to say they have the same power but not the same authority.

 

It is the order of the eternities - of any two things, one is always greater in some way.  There is simply no such thing as equal.

[Buckeye]

... There is simply no such thing as equal.

 

Congratulations. We're now back at the beginning of the conflict. Next someone will say, "but under the proclamation men and women are equal." And then we go round and round about how the genders are equal but not the same. And after several more rounds, we will still lack a meaningful resolution.

 

Sometimes I swear the proclamation was written on a Mobius strip.

[The Nehor]

You can take any two Deacons, put them in a room together and according to priesthood order, one will preside.

How do you determine this if neither is in a presidency? Or if they are not in the same quorum?

[Buckeye]

How do you determine this if neither is in a presidency? Or if they are not in the same quorum?

 

I'm guessing that JLHPROF would say the most "senior" presides, meaning whoever joined the quorum first (or maybe was ordained first). Of course, being nitpicky, you could ask what happens if they joined at exactly the same time and were exactly the same age.

[cinepro]

How do you determine this if neither is in a presidency? Or if they are not in the same quorum?

 

 

Obviously it's the one who was ordained first. 

[The Nehor]

I'm guessing that JLHPROF would say the most "senior" presides, meaning whoever joined the quorum first (or maybe was ordained first). Of course, being nitpicky, you could ask what happens if they joined at exactly the same time and were exactly the same age.

So every time I change wards I move to the bottom rung of the ladder?

I don't think seniority matters in any quorum except the Twelve.

[cinepro]

This is a lovely notion, but it doesn't fit with scripture or eternal pattern

I 100% believe that wives are equal in power and authority with husbands.  I do.  I believe Heavenly Mother(s) hold just as much authority as Heavenly Father.  But they don't preside.

 

I suspect every married couple handles this a little differently based on their skills and personality.

 

For my wife and I, we decided early in our marriage that as the priesthood holder, I would make all the important decisions in the marriage, and as the wife, she would make the unimportant ones.

 

It's worked pretty well, though we've been married 18 years and I'm still waiting for something important to come up.

[The Nehor]

I suspect every married couple handles this a little differently based on their skills and personality.

 

For my wife and I, we decided early in our marriage that as the priesthood holder, I would make all the important decisions in the marriage, and as the wife, she would make the unimportant ones.

 

It's worked pretty well, though we've been married 18 years and I'm still waiting for something important to come up.

Try lighting the house on fire. Might give you a chance to shine.

[Buckeye]

So every time I change wards I move to the bottom rung of the ladder?

I don't think seniority matters in any quorum except the Twelve.

 

The same principle applies to stake high councils, which are modeled after the Q12.

[JLHPROF]

So every time I change wards I move to the bottom rung of the ladder?

I don't think seniority matters in any quorum except the Twelve.

 

Actually, I believe it is who is ordained to the office first, not the quorum membership.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[cinepro]

Actually, I believe it is who is ordained to the office first, not the quorum membership.

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

Well, if the Quorum of the 12 is any indicator, it is when you join the quorum, not when you are ordained.

[Calm]

This is a lovely notion, but it doesn't fit with scripture or eternal pattern

I 100% believe that wives are equal in power and authority with husbands.  I do.  I believe Heavenly Mother(s) hold just as much authority as Heavenly Father.  But they don't preside.

 

Just as I believe all 15 Apostles in the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency hold the same priesthood.

But there is only one President.  There is only ever one who presides.  Nowhere in all of scripture do you find two people presiding together exactly equally.  Christ will receive EVERYTHING his Father has, but his Father will still preside over Christ.

You can stick any two Deacons in an empty classroom and according to priesthood order, one of them presides.  There cannot be two presiding authorities that are exactly equal.

 

It's not an issue of authority. 

And yes, I am sure they will be all of one mind, and counsel together.  Members of any quorum, family, council, group, ward, organization, etc, etc can all be of equal standing, one mind, and provide their counsel.

But the scriptures are clear that whenever there are two, one must preside. 

 

Definition of preside - "be in the position of authority in a meeting or gathering."

It doesn't matter who is conducting the meeting or whether the presiding authority says a word.  They are there to preside.

And yes, sure, Mom can conduct, but Dad always presides.

But that is not what you saidbefore as i post below, someone can preside but still others have an equal say...there is nothing stopping someone who presides from even sitting in a committee as you state for Abraham.

" I doubt very much that Abraham sits in committee with Sarah, Hagar and Keturah (and any other non-recorded wives).  I doubt that Joseph Fielding Smith sits in committee with his three wives and all have an equal say.

And IF Christ ends up being a polygamist as taught in the early days, I sincerely doubt that he sits in committee as equal with Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene"

[JLHPROF]

But that is not what you saidbefore as i post below, someone can preside but still others have an equal say...there is nothing stopping someone who presides from even sitting in a committee as you state for Abraham.

" I doubt very much that Abraham sits in committee with Sarah, Hagar and Keturah (and any other non-recorded wives).  I doubt that Joseph Fielding Smith sits in committee with his three wives and all have an equal say.

And IF Christ ends up being a polygamist as taught in the early days, I sincerely doubt that he sits in committee as equal with Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene"

 

My apologies for being confusing.  I am sure they sit in counsel.  What I don't believe is that it is a committee of equal voters.  But of course the person presiding listens to the counsel.

I am sure Christ listens to the counsel of his wives.  But I don't believe they take a vote of equals on how to handle a situation.

[ERayR]

I suspect every married couple handles this a little differently based on their skills and personality.

 

For my wife and I, we decided early in our marriage that as the priesthood holder, I would make all the important decisions in the marriage, and as the wife, she would make the unimportant ones.

 

It's worked pretty well, though we've been married 18 years and I'm still waiting for something important to come up.

 

That is how my wife and I did it for nearly 55 years.  I got to decide when the country went to war.  All the rest I left up to her. 

 

Seriously my wife never liked handling finances so that was left to me.  Most of the rest was pretty much joint.