General Conference Thoughts

[blackstrap]

If God can change a mortal body into an immortal one with a particular glory , does that preclude Him from being able to change that body's glory to a higher one ? 

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

If God can change a mortal body into an immortal one with a particular glory , does that preclude Him from being able to change that body's glory to a higher one ? 

12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again ^aevil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/41?lang=eng

[Rain]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again ^aevil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/41?lang=eng

I'm not sure this works with that question because that would mean being restored to a mortal body or no body at all since no one has a celestial body before resurrection.

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, Navidad said:

Changed my mind!

Please clarify 

[Navidad]

54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Please clarify 

I had written something I thought was humorous. But decided it might not be taken as humorous, so I deleted it.  Best wishes.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, blackstrap said:

If God can change a mortal body into an immortal one with a particular glory , does that preclude Him from being able to change that body's glory to a higher one ? 

I think He able to do, and can do, whatever He wants. D&C 88 indicates that He resurrects, or quickens, our mortal bodies once, and our spirits determine the glory by which He quickens them, according to the place we are willing to enjoy (Elder Oaks referred to this in terms of comfort). verse 35 mentions that this is by God's decree, and the passage detailing the events of the seven trumps makes the quickening sound pretty final.

So, your question is about a resurrected person being able to progress from one kingdom to another by becoming more willing to love and follow God, cultivating a more sanctified spirit and getting God to amend His original quickening with added glory. The agent of sanctification is the Holy Ghost (the gift and constant companionship), and the revelations do not say whether or how long into the resurrection this gift remains with us. While it is said that we will have a lot to learn to advance after the resurrection, this seems to be more a function of the "white stone" and the celestialized Earth on which we dwell, which is to become a great Urim and Thummim, than the gift of the Holy Ghost. So, since inhabitants of lesser kingdoms lack both these essential advantages from the start of their resurrection, I'm not sure how they can progress in glory to obtain them, and there is no revelation on it.

[Tacenda]

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

[MustardSeed]

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

I have a client who was deeply hurt by the prophets words- for other reasons. Maybe I’ll share later. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

I understood him to mean in reference to spiritual goals and behavior in terms of our covenants, not secular things that could include getting therapy from a nonbelieving therapist (as long as they were respectful to one’s beliefs), but it was ambiguous and could be read as never for any topic. However, I think it important to take other things Pres Nelson has said in the past into account to better understand what he meant. I doubt he has changed his thinking and is less encouraging of building bridges of understanding and respecting different opinions this month than he was back in April. 

After all the Church interacts with nonmembers all the time and encourages this. They are taking counsel from nonmembers on where to donate their funds when they give money to other organizations. He cannot be saying don’t take counsel in any way.

I think his talk this month is consistent with April’s where he says “not peace at any price”, but still treating others in ways consistent with our covenants. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/04/47nelson?lang=eng

Something that was said in another talk led me to this, which I think is what he meant.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/worldwide-devotional-for-young-adults/2022/05/12nelson?

Quote

Now, may I invite you to consider a few questions? Do you want to feel peace about concerns that presently plague you? Do you want to know Jesus Christ better? Do you want to learn how His divine power can heal your wounds and weaknesses? Do you want to experience the sweet, soothing power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ working in your life?

Seeking to answer these questions will require effort—mucheffort. I plead with you to take charge of your testimony. Work for it. Own it. Care for it. Nurture it so that it will grow. Feed it truth. Don’t pollute it with the false philosophies ofunbelieving men and women and then wonder why your testimony is waning.

Engage in daily, earnest, humble prayer. Nourish yourself in the words of ancient and modern prophets. Ask the Lord to teach you how to hear Him better. Spend more time in the temple and in family history work.

As you make your testimony your highest priority, watch for miracles to happen in your life.

Iow, don’t look for guidance to increase your faith from those who do not have the faith you desire.  Just as it might be intelligent not to look for medical advice from those who have an unhealthy lifestyle or nutritional info from those who do not pay attention to nutrition in their own diet or stock advice from those unfamiliar with the stock market.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

I don’t believe President Nelson intended this but I have also seen a lot of anger about this. Some from part-member families where the non-member parent is unhappy that their counsel was viewed as worthless and some from other sources. It was badly worded.

[Smiley McGee]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

it’s the only talk I watched in its entirety. He was very direct, but I didn’t think the content was anything that hasn’t been said, taught, or can at least be inferred from the scriptures.

I do think he perpetuates an interesting theology of a god who is very easily offended. A god offended by addiction, or something as benign as the word “Mormonism”, sounds less like a god and more like a bad friend, or an emotionally immature parent.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

A god offended by addiction, or something as benign as the word “Mormonism”, sounds less like a god and more like a bad friend, or an emotionally immature parent.

My view of God being offended is he is unhappy for our sakes, not for his own.   Our addictions and mistakes damage us, not him and it hurts him when his children suffer unnecessarily. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Calm

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

I REALLY struggled with his talk. I totally missed the counsel part. I had hoped that being recorded earlier that the transcription would already be up. 

[blackstrap]

I watched in amazement as President Nelson , at age 99 , smoothly read from the teleprompter for many minutes. 

[Smiley McGee]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

My view of God being offended is he is unhappy for our sakes, not for his own.   Our addictions and mistakes damage us, not him and it hurts him when his children suffer unnecessarily. 

Then use a different word. Offense has nothing to do with what you just said. 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

I think he was talking about members not taking counsel in matters of religion from non-believers. LDS members seek counseling all the time from professional counselors who are non-believing regarding non-religious matters.  He then spoke of taking counsel from the prophets and the Holy Ghost so obviously he was speaking in terms of religious and spiritual guidance.
I think it was one of his best and boldest talks. He doesn't hold back when it comes to doctrinal truths.
 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Smiley McGee said:

I do think he perpetuates an interesting theology of a god who is very easily offended. A god offended by addiction, or something as benign as the word “Mormonism”, sounds less like a god and more like a bad friend, or an emotionally immature parent.

It also seems kind of childish to make your children have a brain that is often amazingly susceptible to addiction and then getting annoyed that they get addicted. Couldn’t tweak that just a little bit.

I also admit I giggled when President Nelson described God’s plan for us as “fabulous”.

 

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Then use a different word. Offense has nothing to do with what you just said. 

I do.  I don’t use “offense” or “offended” to describe God’s behaviour because I think it carries too much baggage and isn’t as focused in most discussions as it should be.

I think we need to take any description of God not in isolation, but as a full package, including how understanding of the nature of God has changed over the years.

I disagree that “offense” has nothing to do with what I describe.

In the context of the scriptures, God being offended can be viewed as accurate and not as something petty or ridiculous, imo.

Biblically speaking an offense is something that usually leads another to sin.****  I can see calling the use of “Mormon” for the Church and church members as that type of offense in that it can lead to a misunderstanding of what the Church truly is and therefore could result in a rejection of learning anything about it.  I believe I have seen that happen at least once (the person obviously only knew our nickname and that someone he respected called us a cult, told me we were going to hell and refused to accept that I believed in and worshipped Christ and I don’t think he meant “a different Christ”).  I can see an extrapolation from “this is an offense” (meaning something that leads others to sin, leads away from God) to a belief that God is offended.  And maybe he is.  I know quite a few people who get offended not for something done to themselves, but are highly sensitive if a child is hurt or someone else they see as vulnerable.  They are loving, generous souls with a very strong protective streak.  I can see God being like that, we are all certainly very childlike and very vulnerable in his eyes.   Of course, he is also merciful to the offender if they recognize their offense and strive to do better, after all, that person is also God’s child.

And perhaps to us something like a misuse of a name is petty, but if it is discouraging large numbers of God’s children from being curious or open to hearing God’s words, that seems significant to me.

I would love to see a study done where people are asked what their reaction to the word “Mormon” is and if they are more or less open to hearing a religious talk once that label is applied.  I realize there is more than just whether or not they understand we are Christian because of our nickname.  I doubt we can separate out the different baggage now in the US at least.  Maybe avoiding the use of Mormon may help avoid some of that baggage.

Maybe someone could go to China and see if calling the Church Mormon and then later telling them about our belief in Christ and then asking if they could teach them about the Church makes anyone less receptive than calling the Church by its actual name and then asking to share our beliefs.  There must be some places where no one has heard of the Church or even “Mormon” and it hasn’t popped up on their screens yet.  Still, I think it more likely that those who hear that Mormons aren’t Christian end up never really questioning that where they likely would if they knew us by our real name.

I can see the use of the proper name of the Church becoming more and more important in an age where you may be given only a few seconds to catch someone’s attention before they make a judgment and open or shut down conversation…and where even if they later find out they are wrong, decide to stick with the judgment as it’s the least amount of effort or because they are among others who feel that way.   I think it is less important for the here and now that we avoid the use of Mormon. I don’t think it is going to make much difference now with the abundance of material out there about the Mormons, including a ton from the Church itself.  I think it could be important for the future that the actual name of the Church becomes at least as well known as our nickname.  My guess is that is why President Nelson has been inspired to push for the change (which I believe he has even if I don’t always feel right about the way he has gone about it) because it is going to take time to shift.  I think the use of the “I am a Mormon” campaign was beneficial in the short term in showing people we were not some antisocial group that recruits and then isolates our people, but it could have a high long term cost to it if all that gets perpetuated is the use of the name and not everything that went into it.  I believe Pres. Nelson’s instruction is for the purpose of lessening the cost and maybe even canceling it out, so that overall it was a plus because “Mormon” becomes a true nickname, just a shorthand for people who understand we are Christian, etc.
 

****https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4625/kjv/tr/0-1/

Edited October 3, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

A hug in response to your sadness 🤗

[Navidad]

I listened to President Nelson's talk several times. I wrote his words as he said them - "Never take counsel from those who do not believe." He never mentioned "non-believers" and he never used the term "non-members." Of course we each interpret communications based on our own experiences, biases, beliefs, values, and whether we have a kaleidoscope, telescope, or binoculars in hand through which we view faith. Find a beautiful image in a kaleidoscope and hand it to someone. What is the first thing they will do? They most often will turn it to find the image they find most pleasing. Try it. That is most likely what we will each do with this simple phrase from his talk. All I ask is that we acknowledge that, so that we don't condemn those who turn the kaleidoscope of meaning to something that better fits their own.

When it comes to a specific gathering of faith - I am a non-member. When it comes to faith, belief in Christ, His atonement, commitments, covenants, and living the celestial life, I am not a non-believer; neither am I one who does not believe.

For those who see faith through a telescope, that might be hard or even impossible to understand and/or accept. So be it. However, the narrower the view, the more beauty one may miss out on! A person with many human flaws and needs for growth once said "Finding value in uncertainty opens the door to learning and growth. Certainty closes the door. Absolute certainty locks it." As a friend and non-member, may I offer that maxim to you?

Edited October 3, 2023 by Navidad

[Leaf474]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I understood him to mean in reference to spiritual goals and behavior in terms of our covenants, not secular things that could include getting therapy from a nonbelieving therapist (as long as they were respectful to one’s beliefs), but it was ambiguous and could be read as never for any topic. However, I think it important to take other things Pres Nelson has said in the past into account to better understand what he meant. I doubt he has changed his thinking and is less encouraging of building bridges of understanding and respecting different opinions this month than he was back in April. 

After all the Church interacts with nonmembers all the time and encourages this. They are taking counsel from nonmembers on where to donate their funds when they give money to other organizations. He cannot be saying don’t take counsel in any way.

I think his talk this month is consistent with April’s where he says “not peace at any price”, but still treating others in ways consistent with our covenants. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/04/47nelson?lang=eng

Something that was said in another talk led me to this, which I think is what he meant.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/worldwide-devotional-for-young-adults/2022/05/12nelson?

 

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Iow, don’t look for guidance to increase your faith from those who do not have the faith you desire.

Would this relate to non-members speaking at a church function?

 

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Just as it might be intelligent not to look for medical advice from those who have an unhealthy lifestyle or nutritional info from those who do not pay attention to nutrition in their own diet or stock advice from those unfamiliar with the stock market.

 

 

[Peacefully]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

My view of God being offended is he is unhappy for our sakes, not for his own.   Our addictions and mistakes damage us, not him and it hurts him when his children suffer unnecessarily. 

If that is the case, then maybe he should choose a better word. Maybe “offended” has a different connotation these days. 

[Navidad]

9 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

If that is the case, then maybe he should choose a better word. Maybe “offended” has a different connotation these days. 

I agree.

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

it’s the only talk I watched in its entirety. He was very direct, but I didn’t think the content was anything that hasn’t been said, taught, or can at least be inferred from the scriptures.

I do think he perpetuates an interesting theology of a god who is very easily offended. A god offended by addiction, or something as benign as the word “Mormonism”, sounds less like a god and more like a bad friend, or an emotionally immature parent.

I assumed he was just using the language the scriptures often use to speak about sin.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

If that is the case, then maybe he should choose a better word. Maybe “offended” has a different connotation these days. 

The D&C says (section 59 v. 21):

And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

It might be interesting to have a discussion on why the word “offend” was used in this verse (and the many other verses that connect offending God and sin) and whether or not we can correctly say that sin offends God today in our current culture.