Leaf474 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: This is what I (and others) call "experience". Note the early reference to William James, the guy I quote a lot. I agree that consciousness is hard to define. I disagree that we therefore ought not to talk about it. God and spirit are also difficult to define.
Leaf474 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I agree, I never said that. The world is obviously around us, you can drive off real cliffs BUT your EXPERIENCE will those of a human being "driving off a cliff" I thought you had said that the color red was created by our perception. But it looks like we agree that there is a reality around us. This reality is not created by our perceptions, though we may perceive it differently. 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Experiences of, possibly: 1. "Crashing through a gate " 2. "Falling and spinning" 3. "Seeing the rocks below becoming larger" 4. Human "Pain" in various body areas. What's after that is no longer "human experience" presumably, Why would you presume that? Are you assuming that only the natural world is real, and that there is no supernatural aspect to humans? The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: ...we have no language to describe it, if there is a "me" left to describe it, if it could be described. So yes the world is "real" and remains "real" but all we EXPERIENCE of it, by definition, HAS TO BE "human experience". There is no way around it. You can't see what you can't see. What color are cosmic rays? We are not equipped to know; the very concept is a non- sequitur if you try to discuss it. Human experience, yes. A product of the brain only, I believe it is not.
Leaf474 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: So yes, we totally agree on that! So, God is as REAL as the world around us, and we PERCEIVE him through our bodies... Not necessarily our bodies only, though. 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: ...through what is called "conscience" - a sense of right and wrong, or the "Holy Spirit" and all the variations, just as we experience the "real world" as colors all around us.
Leaf474 Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 56 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: How about this? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/video/discovering-truth Do the LDS leaders stop with "love never fails"? My impression is that the restored gospel is presented as much more than that. Indeed, were there not a lot more things talked about at General Conference? Edited October 9, 2023 by Leaf474
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2023 Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Leaf474 said: It seems reasonable that those groups of humans which had a higher sense of the religious - real or imagined - would be better at working together and have better survivability. Just the idea that someone is always watching you, even when others in the village aren't can be a powerful motivator. But that's the purely naturalistic explanation. I believe we have a soul and/or spirit which works in conjunction with our brain to produce consciousness. That's fine, it's just an alternate paradigm. But it does not CONFLICT with the one I am proposing. Evolution is entirely compatible with LDS positions; it could have been "guided" evolution, or predestined even, and LDS positions must be naturalistic for an immanent, embodied God. I think we are still not communicating clearly. Remember the "spirit" IS "refined matter". Strictly speaking, LDS folks are scripturally materialists. Edited October 9, 2023 by mfbukowski
Smiley McGee Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Leaf474 said: Do the LDS leaders stop with "love never fails"? They sure don’t: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2003/02/divine-love?lang=eng Edited October 10, 2023 by Smiley McGee 2
mfbukowski Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Leaf474 said: Do the LDS leaders stop with "love never fails"? My impression is that the restored gospel is presented as much more than that. Indeed, were there not a lot more things talked about at General Conference? Yes, of course there is a lot more, not sure why you seem stuck on that. Thanks, we don't seem to be making much progress on understanding each other. 🤔 Edited October 10, 2023 by mfbukowski
Leaf474 Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: That's fine, it's just an alternate paradigm. But it does not CONFLICT with the one I am proposing. I'm thinking it may conflict with the paradigm I propose. 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Evolution is entirely compatible with LDS positions; it could have been "guided" evolution, or predestined even, and LDS positions must be naturalistic for an immanent, embodied God. In what is God immanent? All of creation, just his own body, or something else? 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I think we are still not communicating clearly. Very possibly we are not 🙂 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Remember the "spirit" IS "refined matter". Hmmm... I thought we were discussing things from a purely philosophical perspective. Will you be appealing to LDS revelation? 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Strictly speaking, LDS folks are scripturally materialists. How is a scriptural materialist different from the standard use of the word? Is it possible for a spirit that does not have a body to be conscious? Thanks for the conversation so far ❤️
Leaf474 Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 13 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yes, of course there is a lot more, not sure why you seem stuck on that. I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a "stuck" on it. The larger context is that a leader of a tightly-knit group gets a pass from me on having secret financial records they can do things like perform resurrections or cause a person who was born blind to see. I believe you brought up the idea that "now we see through a glass darkly", which in some way would relate to the above. I responded that the quote about seeing darkly is in the context of "love never fails". If a leader teaches that and stops there, then I wouldn't want to know about their financial records. But I don't know of any leaders of tightly-knit groups that stop there. Thus, no leaders of tightly-knit groups today get a pass from me on secret financial records. 13 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Thanks, we don't seem to be making much progress on understanding each other. 🤔 The stuff that William James and others wrote makes sense to me, and when you're talking about purity philosophical things, that makes sense to me as well. From my perspective, the difficulty is in starting with the above and arriving at the conclusion that observing a resurrection doesn't matter; that it is not useful information. If this is the end, thanks again for the convo 🙂
mfbukowski Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Leaf474 said: If this is the end, thanks again for the convo 🙂 Thanks also. 1
Calm Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 5 hours ago, Leaf474 said: Is it possible for a spirit that does not have a body to be conscious? If consciousness is defined as awareness of the existence of self and others, most definitely. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Leaf474 said: From my perspective, the difficulty is in starting with the above and arriving at the conclusion that observing a resurrection doesn't matter; that it is not useful information. Well, I guess I didn't want to let it die with this still undefined for you. This conclusion seems quite off base to me, and I thought it would not be a good place to leave it "...arriving at the conclusion that observing a resurrection doesn't matter; that it is not useful information" Not at all the conclusion. First, we are NOT speaking of someone "observing a resurrection". The best the stories say is that two women found the tomb empty, and later say a living Jesus. Maybe he was drugged, placed in the tomb and revived. That is one opposed story of many. The Bible mentions no witnesses to the resurrection itself. What we have is humanly written, second or third generation of stories told, not even of a first person observation of a resurrection, TWO THOUSAND years old, re-told, re-translated, of alleged events "recalled" by members of - let's assume- a "cult," in whose interest it would be beneficial to tell such stories, to increase cult membership. All of it is hearsay, which would not even stand up in court. MY POINT with all the philosophy, was to show that WE TODAY have "empirical evidence" THROUGH OUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, AS CERTAIN AS KNOWING THE COLOR RED IS REAL, that the resurrection was an actual event, through a "still small voice" perceived in our minds, in much the same way as colors are perceived as Qualia. And so in a certain sense, counting that little voice, as even atheists do, as "empirical evidence" (Rorty, James, all neo-pragmatists and postmoderns, and even Christopher Hutchins) as "true", we can at least acknowledge that the voice is as "real" as color perception. Therefore, the stories told of the resurrection can logically be as true for us as it was for those ancients who heard the stories and at least personally experienced the effects the beliefs had on others, because WE HAVE A PERSONAL WITNESS through the "voice" that these events really happened. Whether or not one is a true believer in the resurrection has nothing to do with one's interpretation of the US Tax code, or what the "voice" told those individuals was good or bad. That should finish it..........?? Edited October 10, 2023 by mfbukowski
Leaf474 Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Well, I guess I didn't want to let it die with this still undefined for you. This conclusion seems quite off base to me, and I thought it would not be a good place to leave it "...arriving at the conclusion that observing a resurrection doesn't matter; that it is not useful information" Not at all the conclusion. First, we are NOT speaking of someone "observing a resurrection". The best the stories say is that two women found the tomb empty, and later say a living Jesus. Maybe he was drugged, placed in the tomb and revived. That is one opposed story of many. The Bible mentions no witnesses to the resurrection itself. What we have is humanly written, second or third generation of stories told, not even of a first person observation of a resurrection, TWO THOUSAND years old, re-told, re-translated, of alleged events "recalled" by members of - let's assume- a "cult," in whose interest it would be beneficial to tell such stories, to increase cult membership. All of it is hearsay, which would not even stand up in court. I was referring to Jesus' resurrection of Lazarus. For those who saw it happen, was that useful information to them? 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: MY POINT with all the philosophy, was to show that WE TODAY have "empirical evidence" THROUGH OUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, AS CERTAIN AS KNOWING THE COLOR RED IS REAL, that the resurrection was an actual event, through a "still small voice" perceived in our minds, in much the same way as colors are perceived as Qualia. And so in a certain sense, counting that little voice, as even atheists do, as "empirical evidence" (Rorty, James, all neo-pragmatists and postmoderns, and even Christopher Hutchins) as "true", we can at least acknowledge that the voice is as "real" as color perception. Therefore, the stories told of the resurrection can logically be as true for us as it was for those ancients who heard the stories and at least personally experienced the effects the beliefs had on others, because WE HAVE A PERSONAL WITNESS through the "voice" that these events really happened. It seems like it would follow, then, that the resurrection of Lazarus is as true for you as it was for anyone back then. If someone today lacks that still small voice, is Lazarus's resurrection then false for them? Could Lazarus's resurrection have been false for people back then who saw it happen? 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Whether or not one is a true believer in the resurrection has nothing to do with one's interpretation of the US Tax code, or what the "voice" told those individuals was good or bad. I agree, I think. At the same time, I was talking about secret financial records versus open ones. Are you saying, if I may try to connect the dots, that if a person perceives- for whatever reason - that the leader of a tightly-knit group is honest, then there is no reason for that person to want to see the financial records for the group in the first place? Thus the level of secrecy of the records is irrelevant? 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: That should finish it..........?? Not quite 🙂 but thanks for the input!
mfbukowski Posted October 10, 2023 Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Leaf474 said: I was referring to Jesus' resurrection of Lazarus. For those who saw it happen, was that useful information to them? It seems like it would follow, then, that the resurrection of Lazarus is as true for you as it was for anyone back then. If someone today lacks that still small voice, is Lazarus's resurrection then false for them? Could Lazarus's resurrection have been false for people back then who saw it happen? I agree, I think. At the same time, I was talking about secret financial records versus open ones. Are you saying, if I may try to connect the dots, that if a person perceives- for whatever reason - that the leader of a tightly-knit group is honest, then there is no reason for that person to want to see the financial records for the group in the first place? Thus the level of secrecy of the records is irrelevant? Not quite 🙂 but thanks for the input! If I was a witness to Lazarus' revival- not resurrection-(remember Jesus was the "first fruits of the resurrection) I would be suspicious as heck, I think. Drugs could knock him out for a few days. Belief that he was "resurrected" I think is incompatible with church Doctrine. The Jews believed that the spirit remained for 3 days after death. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemira#:~:text=According to various midrashic tradition,de Rabbi Eliezer%2C chapter 34) More in about an hour or two. Edited October 10, 2023 by mfbukowski
Leaf474 Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: If I was a witness to Lazarus' revival- not resurrection-(remember Jesus was the "first fruits of the resurrection) I would be suspicious as heck, I think. Drugs could knock him out for a few days. Jesus said to them plainly then, "Lazarus is dead." He who was dead came out... John 11 I believe I noted that the accuracy of the Bible is a factor in one of the early posts on this subject. That is, if I'm remembering correctly. It's fine if we don't want to regard the Bible as accurate. However, If we don't, then we don't really have any basis to say whether or not Jesus was leader of a tightly-knit group, nor do we have any evidence of financial impropriety imo. 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Belief that he was "resurrected" I think is incompatible with church Doctrine. If we're going to appeal to church doctrine, we could simply say that the church is true, therefore - I don't think it's too big of a step - its financial dealings are true. So no need to see financial records. 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: The Jews believed that the spirit remained for 3 days after death. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemira#:~:text=According to various midrashic tradition,de Rabbi Eliezer%2C chapter 34) So when Jesus came, he found that he had been in the tomb four days already. Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.” John 11 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: More in about an hour or two. Cool! I appreciate your time. Edited October 11, 2023 by Leaf474 Changed some words around. I hope no one was writing a response at the same time 😮
Leaf474 Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 M. Russell Ballard says in his talk, "Joseph Smith, a boy who desired to know what he needed to do to have his sins forgiven, found the courage to go into a grove of trees...". Were Smith's sins not forgiven before this? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/41ballard?lang=eng
ksfisher Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 On 10/10/2023 at 4:03 PM, Leaf474 said: I was referring to Jesus' resurrection of Lazarus. On 10/10/2023 at 5:28 PM, mfbukowski said: Belief that he was "resurrected" I think is incompatible with church Doctrine On 10/10/2023 at 6:00 PM, Leaf474 said: If we're going to appeal to church doctrine... "Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/resurrection?lang=eng 1
mfbukowski Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, ksfisher said: "Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/resurrection?lang=eng 1 Corinthians 15:20–22 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2012/12/1-corinthians-15-20-22?lang=eng "Firstfruits of Them That Slept Firstfruits —the fruits, vegetables, and grains that ripen earliest in the harvest. Under the law of Moses, the firstfruits were offered as a holy sacrifice to the Lord to show gratitude and devotion. Since the firstfruits are a sign that the harvest has begun and many more crops are yet to come, the Apostle Paul is saying that Jesus Christ was the first from among the dead (“them that slept”) to rise again and that many more will yet be resurrected." Edited October 12, 2023 by mfbukowski 2
telnetd Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Leaf474 said: M. Russell Ballard says in his talk, "Joseph Smith, a boy who desired to know what he needed to do to have his sins forgiven, found the courage to go into a grove of trees...". Were Smith's sins not forgiven before this? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/41ballard?lang=eng The courage was not about going into the grove of trees but rather the courage to ask God for wisdom or to pray vocally or both - which he could have done anywhere. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng&id=14#p14 Smith's sins were forgiven but for some reason he did not understand the message of the Atonement as taught in the Bible. Edited October 12, 2023 by telnetd 1
mfbukowski Posted October 12, 2023 Posted October 12, 2023 5 hours ago, ksfisher said: Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/resurrection?lang=eng So I guess it must be Doctrine that Lazarus and the little girl are still walking around in this earthy heaven, hey? What a treat! Wonder if they hang out in Israel? I think we need not to take every word of scripture so literally. So then Jesus is not the "first fruits" I guess. Just can't win for losing. And this is the kind of stuff people leave the church over?
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