General Conference Thoughts

[Calm]

Quote

A quick overview of lasts week’s word for “anger” (which you can read here) shows us that it was a long way into the Bible before God got angry, and even then His reaction to His anger was as passive as possible. Moses repeatedly refused God’s commission for him to be a spokesperson and it made God’s nose burn hot (which was a common Hebrew idiom for “anger”). But even though God was frustrated to the point of anger, He merely pivoted his plan and had Aaron become the spokesperson to the people. Moses would intercede between God and Aaron. YHWH didn’t force His plan onto Moses, He just adjusted the plan and moved forward. There was no revenge and no punishment.

So yes, God gets angry when we refuse to go along with His plans for our lives but He doesn’t strike us down, He just finds a new way to bring us to the point of His purpose.

https://hebrewwordlessons.com/2023/04/30/khemah-the-cup-of-wrath/

Quote

No matter how angry He was, He would not break His covenant with them and He would not destroy them. BUT, if they made the first move and broke the covenant, He would respect their wishes and remove His presence from them. They would no longer be under the protective hand of YHWH. They would face death on their own and they would suffer under the weight of their own decision.

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Calm

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

Thank you for your thoughts on this. It made me think of my nephew who has some type of mental illness. He often lashes out and threatens people when he is in a bad state. I told my daughter, who is a licensed clinical social worker, that he never apologizes and she said he may not even remember what he did. To me, he is still responsible in some way if he hurts someone, but I also have more compassion for him. I think mental illness and addiction often go hand in hand and our loving Heavenly Father will have the most compassion for his children while still holding them responsible for their actions to the extent of their ability to control said actions. 

Definitely goes hand in hand.  My brother had both mental illness and addictions.  he did some things that really hurt some people.  He also was so protective of other people and would give up everything for them.   He died in 2020 and I suspect he went through a learning process there, but I also think with his protective side he may have been greeted by many who loved him.

[manol]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was going off of what Cal and T-Shirt posted about how the common definition of the word in the 1800s was "displeased", which is quite a bit different (at least in implication) than the common definition of "offend" today.

The way I read the verse, God being offended is effectively synonymous with God's wrath being kindled:  "And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save..."

Am I missing something?

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This absolutely sends me.  The fact that people buy it irritates me.  I want no part of it and resent sharing religion with all involved.  I wish the leaders would decry this- instead it “feels” like this stuff gets encouraged as talks enlist catchy themes. 
Just talk to us.  Help us feel hopeful and inspired to improve. 

If it brings another happiness or hope or they find it helpful, is it still bad?

(I'm asking based on your use of the word irritate denoting something that shouldn't be happening.  If you are using irritate to mean "something I personally don't like for whatever reason" then ignore me.  I certainly understand that sentiment as there is much that irritates me in church culture because of my own personality, etc.   )

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Think Celestial” t-shirts are already on sale! At least it isn’t President Nelson’s relatives trying to cash in.

Reminds me of the old movie "Oh, God", where the phrase was "Think God"

[Leaf474]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Thank you.  It is what it is and I have a great support system.  So many have it worse.  And I just got a corrected diagnosis on Friday, so now I can push myself and try somethings I was concerned would make my issues worse, but now I know they won’t…well, maybe temporarily, but it was long term I was concerned about.  One of these may get me off that drug…now I need to figure out how to pay for the better one as insurance saves it just for true addicts, lol….though a few more years on the current one, who knows, maybe I will meet their standard.  So much for preventive care.    Maybe Medicare will be more receptive.  I turn 65 this month! and my husband retires in January….a bit nervous about that so please direct your prayers in that direction, making the transition smoothly, especially for my daughter who could end up with no coverage at all and between her diabetes and drugs that would be several thousand dollars a month.  We can probably afford it, but we would prefer that money stay in savings for her for when we die as we want her to be at least financially independent (the plan is for her to move in with her brother or one of his kids).  She is the one who really need prayers.

You probably already know about this, but just in case...

 

I have a close friend who has fibromyalgia, and she got good relief by taking cymbalta/duloxetine.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, manol said:

The way I read the verse, God being offended is effectively synonymous with God's wrath being kindled:  "And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save..."

Am I missing something?

Synonymous or goes hand in hand with, yes that does seem to be what the verse is saying.  But to me being angry is more in line with sin displeasing God, than God "being resentful because of a perceived slight" (which is the current popular definition of the word) and that causing His anger.

If that makes sense.

[MustardSeed]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

it brings another happiness or hope or they find it helpful, is it still bad?

It’s only my opinion but I believe that monetizing religion is bad. And I am personally repelled by general conference catchphrases. I know not everybody is I also didn’t like the movie Titanic so there’s that lol I don’t expect everybody to think like I do.

Edited October 4, 2023 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s only my opinion but I believe that monetizing religion is bad. And I am personally repelled by general conference catchphrases. I know not everybody is I also didn’t like the movie Titanic so there’s that lol I don’t expect everybody to think like I do.

Thanks for explaining, I wasn't sure if I was understanding where you were coming from before.

(and how dare you not like Titanic )

[MustardSeed]

47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thanks for explaining, I wasn't sure if I was understanding where you were coming from before.

(and how dare you not like Titanic )

I know I know.  🤣😅

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I want no part of it and resent sharing religion with all involved.

I wish it was quality stuff available at cost (the worker is worth their wage, but I think it would be better if a work of love and not speculation…trying not to use greed here because some people doing it aren’t trying to make a killing, but treat it as another side hustle) because our faith deserves that, not the tacky, mass produced, no thought, dime a dozen generic stuff.  I wish people would invest so it uplifted the spirit not just by remembering the talk, but by being beautiful or thought provoking or handmade.

When I worked at the church store, I bought some humorous items for my kids and some missionary knickknacks my son probably never used just so I felt like I was doing something for him, but I look back on that as taking the easy way out.  I didn’t trust that what I would make myself would be valued.  I think too many of us feel that way.

One summer while I worked at the bookstore up in Canada, I attended the LDS Booksellers convention while visiting relatives in Utah.  It was massive and half the stuff I would gladly torch (and I collect funky little things so I am not opposed to all such products)..  But some of the games and books and other stuff I got a chance to talk to the creators and I could tell many of them cared more about their product helping others.  They were under no illusion they were going to make much money off their product.  There were others that just ripped off someone else’s idea and adapted it for the Saint audience.  Iffy on those.  Some were obviously out for the buck, others were hoping the mass appeal would transfer and make religious studying more attractive.  (Remember Celestial Pursuit anyone?)

It was so much easier to dislike the stuff before I met the people producing it, lol.

 I can’t remember if I met the artist (oh man, the name worked its way out of the muck eventually, Chad Hawkins!) who was going to one temple after another and making some beautiful prints from them there or up in Canada at the store.  He had written a book about his travels so far, I talked to him at a book signing so probably at the store.  I still use the temple recommend holder with the Cardston Temple picture.  The book sharing the experiences and the fact I could imagine him sitting outside the temples and drawing made it so I actually looked forward to seeing his latest, but the ornaments and other things the company made based on his drawings made me rather disgusted.  But you know what, a white tree filled with all gold temple ornaments (looks like they don’t make them anymore, so let’s go with crystal) could look rather cool and if it was meaningful somehow as in they hadn’t just been bought, but the temple and the area it was in was studied or even visited, I can even bring myself to applaud that use.  There was something about the Moroni tree topper though that would test my tolerance level.  Maybe if the only ornaments were the temple ones and some ball and ribbons, that could even work.  Have to have the theme very pure and simple I think though.

All this to say my gut instinct is to gag when I think of these, but a lot of it could be meaningful in much the way a weekly trip to an ice cream store with the family might be a life long memory one cherishes (Baskin Robbins is still the ice cream store even if it has been 25 years probably since I stepped in one) or just a bunch of empty calories one has to work to dump.  Meaning is what you put into it.  Unfortunately a lot of people, including myself, buy this kind of stuff hoping it will inspire our family to get more involved in scripture study or make an easy FHE activity and all it does is sit on the shelf and gather dust and guilt for failing yet again.  Waste of money and space.  We don’t need that in our lives.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

You probably already know about this, but just in case...

 

I have a close friend who has fibromyalgia, and she got good relief by taking cymbalta/duloxetine.

Thank you for sharing and reminding me of that option.  My daughter tried it and unfortunately it didn’t work for her, but we are quite different in how we react to drugs.  I haven’t tried it yet, I have been focusing more on what I can do without meds since I was diagnosed a year ago because I tend to react badly to most drugs and when I thought I had Meniere’s I wanted to avoid medication as much as possible as everything seemed to make it worse.  If the gabepentin I just started on doesn’t help, I will ask if cymbalta is appropriate for me (lots of meds aren’t because I have restless legs disorder and many meds aggravate that).

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I am personally repelled by general conference catchphrases

I am with you on this one.  I don’t mind people making their own, but when something is a mass catchphrase…I don’t know, feels like it drains the life away from what could be a good idea without the phrase attached.

I had to work hard not to turn off my tablet on Pres. Nelson’s talk after the second repetition (I have no issue with the rest of his talk nor the principle being taught).  Thankfully at 1.5 speed, it was over sooner, but it felt like it went on and on.  I may have to time it to see how much my brain inflated it.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

and how dare you not like Titanic )

I can’t say I don’t like it for sure because I have never seen it or even a clip of it.  I may have read the plot on wiki once because somehow I sort of know the story.  I can say I am pretty sure I wouldn’t like it, thus the intentional avoiding of it.

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Definitely goes hand in hand.  My brother had both mental illness and addictions.  he did some things that really hurt some people.  He also was so protective of other people and would give up everything for them.   He died in 2020 and I suspect he went through a learning process there, but I also think with his protective side he may have been greeted by many who loved him.

Thank you for sharing. I’m so sorry for your loss. 

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

(and how dare you not like Titanic )

It's the song I find annoying.

Edit:  (Actually, more than just the song now that I think about it!)

Edit again:  And now I'm more annoyed because thinking about the song got it stuck in my head (will I ever be sane again???)

Edited October 4, 2023 by InCognitus

[Calm]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

It's the song I find annoying.

Edit:  (Actually, more than just the song now that I think about it!)

Edit again:  And now I'm more annoyed because thinking about the song got it stuck in my head (will I ever be sane again???)

I can’t remember the song and I am trying very hard not to be so obsessive I have to look it up right now.

[Leaf474]

12 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s only my opinion but I believe that monetizing religion is bad.

I hear that. The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.

 

Reminded me of this

See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your Heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?

Matthew 6

 

12 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

And I am personally repelled by general conference catchphrases. I know not everybody is I also didn’t like the movie Titanic so there’s that lol I don’t expect everybody to think like I do.

 

[Leaf474]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Thank you for sharing and reminding me of that option.  My daughter tried it and unfortunately it didn’t work for her, but we are quite different in how we react to drugs.  I haven’t tried it yet, I have been focusing more on what I can do without meds since I was diagnosed a year ago because I tend to react badly to most drugs and when I thought I had Meniere’s I wanted to avoid medication as much as possible as everything seemed to make it worse.  If the gabepentin I just started on doesn’t help, I will ask if cymbalta is appropriate for me (lots of meds aren’t because I have restless legs disorder and many meds aggravate that).

May the Lord be with you, and bless you.

[Ginger Snaps]

17 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s only my opinion but I believe that monetizing religion is bad. And I am personally repelled by general conference catchphrases. I know not everybody is I also didn’t like the movie Titanic so there’s that lol I don’t expect everybody to think like I do.

Me too. I hate the “bumper sticker-izing” of GC talks. I belong to a church-related group on Facebook and I’m already sick of the phrase “Think celestial! “ 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Ginger Snaps

[Peacefully]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

I can’t remember the song and I am trying very hard not to be so obsessive I have to look it up right now.

I’m not a very good pianist, but that was the first non-beginner song I learned and I still love to play it:) 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Peacefully

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I wish it was quality stuff available at cost (the worker is worth their wage, but I think it would be better if a work of love and not speculation…trying not to use greed here because some people doing it aren’t trying to make a killing, but treat it as another side hustle) because our faith deserves that, not the tacky, mass produced, no thought, dime a dozen generic stuff.  I wish people would invest so it uplifted the spirit not just by remembering the talk, but by being beautiful or thought provoking or handmade.

When I worked at the church store, I bought some humorous items for my kids and some missionary knickknacks my son probably never used just so I felt like I was doing something for him, but I look back on that as taking the easy way out.  I didn’t trust that what I would make myself would be valued.  I think too many of us feel that way.

One summer while I worked at the bookstore up in Canada, I attended the LDS Booksellers convention while visiting relatives in Utah.  It was massive and half the stuff I would gladly torch (and I collect funky little things so I am not opposed to all such products)..  But some of the games and books and other stuff I got a chance to talk to the creators and I could tell many of them cared more about their product helping others.  They were under no illusion they were going to make much money off their product.  There were others that just ripped off someone else’s idea and adapted it for the Saint audience.  Iffy on those.  Some were obviously out for the buck, others were hoping the mass appeal would transfer and make religious studying more attractive.  (Remember Celestial Pursuit anyone?)

It was so much easier to dislike the stuff before I met the people producing it, lol.

 I can’t remember if I met the artist (oh man, the name worked its way out of the muck eventually, Chad Hawkins!) who was going to one temple after another and making some beautiful prints from them there or up in Canada at the store.  He had written a book about his travels so far, I talked to him at a book signing so probably at the store.  I still use the temple recommend holder with the Cardston Temple picture.  The book sharing the experiences and the fact I could imagine him sitting outside the temples and drawing made it so I actually looked forward to seeing his latest, but the ornaments and other things the company made based on his drawings made me rather disgusted.  But you know what, a white tree filled with all gold temple ornaments (looks like they don’t make them anymore, so let’s go with crystal) could look rather cool and if it was meaningful somehow as in they hadn’t just been bought, but the temple and the area it was in was studied or even visited, I can even bring myself to applaud that use.  There was something about the Moroni tree topper though that would test my tolerance level.  Maybe if the only ornaments were the temple ones and some ball and ribbons, that could even work.  Have to have the theme very pure and simple I think though.

All this to say my gut instinct is to gag when I think of these, but a lot of it could be meaningful in much the way a weekly trip to an ice cream store with the family might be a life long memory one cherishes (Baskin Robbins is still the ice cream store even if it has been 25 years probably since I stepped in one) or just a bunch of empty calories one has to work to dump.  Meaning is what you put into it.  Unfortunately a lot of people, including myself, buy this kind of stuff hoping it will inspire our family to get more involved in scripture study or make an easy FHE activity and all it does is sit on the shelf and gather dust and guilt for failing yet again.  Waste of money and space.  We don’t need that in our lives.

I'm not a general fan of that kind of decor either, though I do love the paintings that they have at deseret book.  They are not all my taste but there are so many beautiful options.  I'm not a knick-knack fan (church and non church types) but I adore someone who is and they bring her so much joy and happiness that I'm so happy she has that option for herself.  Though I admit that I struggle to know what to do with the few knick-knacks that she has gifted to me over the years.  A few I have managed to incorporate into the decor but most stay out for a while and then quietly go to the DI.

[manol]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

Synonymous or goes hand in hand with, yes that does seem to be what the verse is saying.  But to me being angry is more in line with sin displeasing God, than God "being resentful because of a perceived slight" (which is the current popular definition of the word) and that causing His anger.

If that makes sense.

For decades that scripture made me uncomfortable because it implies (assuming current definitions of words) that we're constantly offending God and kindling his wrath ("wrath" = "extreme anger"), because WHO among us comes even close to confessing his hand in all things and obeying his commandments?   I would have liked to find a way to soften that scripture up a bit, but had to admit the preponderance of scriptural evidence supports the obvious and fearful interpretation.  It felt like a punch in the gut from God.

I get the impression that neither you nor @Calm are 100% comfortable with an at-face-value-using-common-current-definitions interpretation of that scripture either, as you are both finding ways to see it through a lense that softens it somewhat, based on less-severe meanings of the words used.  And I understand and respect this, as it renders the scripture no longer a punch in the gut, or at least less so. 

The lense I would see that scripture through results in a much more radical revision: 

"To draw closer to God, see his hand in all things, and align all aspects of oneself with his will."

Same message minus the fear-inducing aspect. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by manol

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

I’m not a very good pianist, but that was the first non-beginner song I learned and I still love to play it:) 

My daughter loved playing while taking piano lessons.

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, manol said:

For decades that scripture made me uncomfortable because it implies (assuming current definitions of words) that we're constantly offending God and kindling his wrath ("wrath" = "extreme anger"), because WHO among us comes even close to confessing his hand in all things and obeying his commandments?   I would have liked to find a way to soften that scripture up a bit, but had to admit the preponderance of scriptural evidence supports the obvious and fearful interpretation.  It felt like a punch in the gut from God.

I get the impression that neither you nor @Calm are 100% comfortable with an at-face-value-using-common-current-definitions interpretation of that scripture either, as you are both finding ways to see it through a lense that softens it somewhat, based on less-severe meanings of the words used.  And I understand and respect this, as it renders the scripture no longer a punch in the gut, or at least less so. 

The lense I would see that scripture through results in a much more radical revision: 

"To draw closer to God, see his hand in all things, and align all aspects of oneself with his will."

Same message minus the fear-inducing aspect. 

I'm actually fine with the verse using the 1800 definition of the word offend.  I don't see a gut punch in there myself but I can see why you and others could.  I don't think the 1800s definition of the word "offend" softens the verse, I think it just keeps the verse in line with our other doctrine and what we know about God (and that He does get angry sometimes).