General Conference Thoughts

[SeekingUnderstanding]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/51nelson?lang=eng

The key part here imo is “spiritual work”.  Why would you seek counsel that requires spiritual work, iow about spiritual things, from a nonbeliever, someone who doesn’t believe in the Spirit?

Yes absolutely. I see Nelson telling people to avoid counsel from people who don’t share their faith paradigm. I think that’s toxic, antithetical to growth. I don’t have a paradigm of faith. I don’t think it’s the best explanation for how the world works. It would never cross my mind to discourage someone (like my children) from seeking counsel from people of faith. If I was struggling with a loved one’s death, it would never cross my mind not to listen to the words of counsel from anyone based on their paradigm. If one’s faith can’t withstand someone’s competing paradigm, then that probably means it wasn’t worth having. 
 

Add to this there a many children and spouses in mixed faith families, these words are a wedge that doesn’t need to be there. 

[T-Shirt]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

 I personally feel no comfort in the prophets words because I know I am not celestial material. It’s very very painful. 

It makes me sad to hear you say this. You are certainly Celestial material! You may not be in a current Celestial state, (most aren't) but you are definitely Celestial material. You are the clay on the Potter's wheel, not fully formed with many rough edges. However, you would not be on the wheel to be shaped and formed if the Potter thought you were not the right kind of material.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Here is one of my concerns.  Years ago I was struggling with some gospel concept. I was talking to a nonmember friend about it.  She gave me the most beautiful advice that led me in a gospel direction.

He said though “those who do not believe”.  Did your nonmember friend not believe in God, in the Spirit, in heaven?  Did she attack your testimony?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

He said though “those who do not believe”.  Did your nonmember friend not believe in God, in the Spirit, in heaven?  Did she attack your testimony?

Believe that all truth is revealed by the Holy Ghost? Believe that Joseph restored God’s only true and living church? That President Nelson is a prophet seer and relevator? Why limit to yours?

Edited October 5, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[T-Shirt]

32 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Add to this there a many children and spouses in mixed faith families, these words are a wedge that doesn’t need to be there. 

They can only be a wedge because you are placing it there and trying to pound it in with a hammer. None of what you said would be discouraged by President Nelson's words. You seem to think that I, as a faithful Latter-day Saint, should not seek help in knowing what is wrong with my car, in knowing what classes my kids should take in college, what medicine I should take, who I should vote for, or what I should do if I am struggling with the loss of a loved one, unless I first ask those from whom I'm seeking direction whether or not they believe in the same things as I do. If I don't, I am betraying the words of President Nelson.

I'll give you an example of what is the intent of his words; If you are struggling with your faith and feel that your testimony has weakened, don't go to John Dehlin for help.

I'm pretty sure you understand this distinction, but you seem to want to pound wedges into places where none exist, just to stir the pot.

Edited October 5, 2023 by T-Shirt

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

They can only be a wedge because you are placing it there and trying to pound it in with a hammer. None of what you said would be discouraged by President Nelson's words. You seem to think that I, as a faithful Latter-day Saint, should not seek help in knowing what is wrong with my car, in knowing what classes my kids should take in college, what medicine I should take, who I should vote for, or what I should do if I am struggling with the loss of a loved one, unless I first ask those from whom I'm seeking direction whether or not they believe in the same things as I do. If I don't, I am betraying the words of President Nelson.

Pretty sure I don’t think that. 

3 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

I'll give you an example of what is the intent of his words; If you are struggling with your faith and feel that your testimony has weakened, don't go to John Dehlin for help.

Or don’t go to your Dad, Mom, best friend etc. Only trust those who share your beliefs. Toxic. Red flag. 

3 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

I'm pretty sure you understand this distinction, but you seem to want to pound wedges into places where the don't belong, just to stir the pot.

If you say so. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Smiley McGee]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

Did your nonmember friend not believe in God, in the Spirit, in heaven?  

Why would this matter?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Let’s say I found out my adult child was struggling with the idea that death is the end. That there is nothing out there in the universe that cares. Like really seriously struggling. Should my advise to her be that whatever you do, don’t talk to any religious people about that? Is that healthy? 

[T-Shirt]

4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Pretty sure I don’t think that. 

Then where are you drawing lines? What in President Nelson's words give you reason to draw those lines?

Quote

Or don’t go to your Dad, Mom, best friend etc.

If a parent or a best friend is going to attack your faith then, no, you shouldn't go to them if your testimony is faltering. That is the point. President Nelson even said, just proceeding what you feel are his offensive words, "When someone you love attacks truth, think celestial, and don’t question your testimony.

I have a very good friend in who I have great trust and would seek his counsel in many things. However, he is very much against my beliefs. If I were to ever struggle with my faith, I would not seek counsel from him. I still love him and trust him. Deception comes from all angles, sometimes even from those you love.

Quote

Only trust those who share your beliefs. Toxic. Red flag. 

Nonsense. This was not said nor implied.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

Right, but some people, who are searching for ways to make the prophet or the Church look bad, like to interpret his words out of context and in the wrong way that was not intended. 

I don’t think this negative reaction is just coming from people who are searching for ways to make him look bad.  I don’t believe our educational experience or even our life experiences always has taught us well how to listen, including how to look at things in context.  And even if you have been taught (my high school English teacher was excellent in that way), sometimes it still doesn’t happen.  I have been angry at my husband about his neglect of the family when he has not told me until he is heading out the door he was going to take off most of a Saturday to hang out at the university to help with some of the games going on (he’s gotten to know coaches so well that they invite him to help with the team, nothing major, but it adds interest to watching the game and he gets to sit first row when he is sitting; he was the equipment guy for the football team back in high school, he is not a player, but he likes being up close).  Saturdays are days I expect him to be around to do stuff to the house I can’t do and sometimes instead of getting something done the weekend that I ask for it to be done, it sits there unfinished for months because for him Saturday is more for play.  At that moment when he tells me he is off to the games before noon when I am expecting to shelving up, I remember all the unfinished tasks and forget the greater context where he helped me that week and many weeks before by taking me and my daughter to a couple of appointments, did the shopping, spent several minutes every evening cleaning the kitchen when he got home, etc.  All I think about is what he is telling me right then and there and what is not going to happen that day that I wanted to happen.

I think the same thing occurs at times when people listen to talks.  They space out on all of the other teachings they have heard from the same person because in that moment they are so focused on what is being said right then and there (as they have been told in church to be).  And often they are thinking more as they listening about what their response should be rather than letting the ideas sit and percolate for awhile before drawing conclusions because we are so often trained that we need to give an immediate opinion or decision when someone tells us something or even that we need to ‘liken’ everything to ourselves.  Our way of life generally speaking is not one of patience and methodical thought, even at church.  We are doers of the Word rather than thinkers of the Word.  It is hard to switch gears just because now we are sitting listening to conference.  

I have been able to develop the habit of not drawing instant conclusions in part because I had good teachers, but also because I have had for much of my life an excess of time on my hands and I keep it interesting by thinking way too much about things I hear and read, spending time researching etc.  But most people do not have that luxury, so we shouldn’t be surprised if they slip up and too quickly respond to part of a talk that catches their attention.  In this case imo, the complaints about the talk are often the other side of the coin to those who are immediately putting up slogans of “Think Celestial” around their home.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I personally feel no comfort in the prophets words because I know I am not celestial material.

No one is right now, imo.  That is why, imo, it will take so long after we die for us to comprehend the things of exaltation as Joseph Smith explains.  We will have to be purged of our Telestial and Terrestrial ways of thinking that prevent that comprehension.  There may be people who can’t let go yet….but I believe in progression between kingdoms and you have got eternity to work out whatever is blocking you from being celestial and adapting it into something that embraces it.

And if there is no progression between kingdoms, you have got as long as you need to get there before resurrection if you want it…and if it is painful for you to think of yourself as not celestial as it appears to me to be from your words, you most likely desire to be celestial and God will give you all you need to get there.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Let’s say I found out my adult child was struggling with the idea that death is the end. That there is nothing out there in the universe that cares. Like really seriously struggling. Should my advise to her be that whatever you do, don’t talk to any religious people about that? Is that healthy? 

It depends on a lot of things. 

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Believe that all truth is revealed by the Holy Ghost? Believe that Joseph restored God’s only true and living church? That President Nelson is a prophet seer and relevator? Why limit to yours?

I am not seeing such limits in President Nelson’s talk.  Only not seeking counsel about faith from those who attack testimony.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[Rain]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

He said though “those who do not believe”.  Did your nonmember friend not believe in God, in the Spirit, in heaven?  Did she attack your testimony?

No, she didn't attack my testimony. 

He said "those who do not believe", but then he qualified it with "Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost."

Now if I go with the whisperings of the Holy Ghost then what my friend said works.  But would President Nelson feel the same given he first said "prophets, seers and revelators"?  I truly don't know.  I am sure some of my fellow ward members would say I wasn't following the counsel of the prophet with that conversation if it were to happen today even though she was completely in line with our gospel teachings on her advice.  

My concern is really not what he said.  I'm perfectly comfortable with how it worked with my friend.  I really try to spiritually listen on who to counsel with. It is how other people understand it that I worry about.  Here we have heard people who are concerned and hurt when they are left out of the counseling loop, but I also think we need to be concerned with those members who close the counseling loop too tight.  

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

We are all unique. And none of us want to be boxed in. We all want to be seen and understood.

Now that is Truth.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not seeing such limits in President Nelson’s talk.  Only not seeking counsel about faith from those who attack testimony.

That’s not what he said though? I mean he could have said that. But he didn’t. Are you sure you aren’t imputing what you want to be there rather than the deliberate words he chose to use?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

But would President Nelson feel the same given he first said "prophets, seers and revelators"?  I truly don't know.

I believe from the way he has talked about nonmembers elsewhere that he is okay with seeking good things from people who believe good things.  I think given he was likely considering this might be his last talk, he wanted to really impress people to listen to prophets and apostles.  After all, our bishop and state presidents are not prophets, seers and revelators.  Do you believe he was telling us not to seek guidance from them?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

That’s not what he said though? I mean he could have said that. But he didn’t. Are you sure you aren’t imputing what you want to be there rather than the deliberate words he chose to use?

I am pretty sure not because I believe he has said as much in other talks and elsewhere in his current talk imo (telling people to seek professional help) and why would he be saying something contrary to that?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

Seeking counsel to resolve a personal problem and exploring potential avenues to understand and evaluate various problem-solving approaches are two very different things. The first is more dependent on another's reliable guidance, the second is a more independent approach. The greater the dependency on guidance, the more warranted  caution and wisdom become. This is why the Church promotes personal confirmation of guidance and counsel we seek and receive.

Edited October 5, 2023 by CV75

[T-Shirt]

30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Let’s say I found out my adult child was struggling with the idea that death is the end. That there is nothing out there in the universe that cares. Like really seriously struggling. Should my advise to her be that whatever you do, don’t talk to any religious people about that? Is that healthy? 

If you were considering hiring a minority, would you seek counsel from your Skin Head neighbor? If you needed a blood transfusion, would you seek counsel from a Jehovah's Witness? If you were trying to decide whether to have ribeye or filet minion, would you seek help from an animal rights activist vegan? If you were trying to decide if you want to vote for Joe Biden or RFK, Jr, would you seek guidance from Donald Trump? If you wanted to buy a new diesel pick-up, would ask direction from a Greta Thunberg?

Would you consider me toxic to advise against seeking help from these folks in these specific decisions? 

[Smiley McGee]

12 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

If you were considering hiring a minority, would you seek counsel from your Skin Head neighbor? If you needed a blood transfusion, would you seek counsel from a Jehovah's Witness? If you were trying to decide whether to have ribeye or filet minion, would you seek help from an animal rights activist vegan? If you were trying to decide if you want to vote for Joe Biden or RFK, Jr, would you seek guidance from Donald Trump? If you wanted to buy a new diesel pick-up, would ask direction from a Greta Thunberg?

Would you consider me toxic to advise against seeking help from these folks in these specific decisions? 

If you wanted to know whether a used car is mechanically sound would you solely rely on the seller’s opinion? If the seller said to rely only on what they know from their experience of driving the car, would you not be suspicious?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[T-Shirt]

In the following statement, who are the non-believers?

Quote

 

As you think celestial, you will view trials and opposition in a new light. When someone you love attacks truth, think celestial, and don’t question your testimony. The Apostle Paul prophesied that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”

There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe.

 

Reading the whole talk, what counsel is President Nelson referring to?

Edited October 5, 2023 by T-Shirt

[Rain]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

I believe from the way he has talked about nonmember elsewhere that he is okay with seeking good things from people who believe good things.  I think given he was likely considering this might be his last talk, he wanted to really impress people to listen to prophets and apostles.  After all, our bishop and state presidents are not prophets, seers and revelators.  Do you believe he was telling us not to seek guidance from them?

I know you do not mean to be this way, but I kind of feel like you are trying to push me rather than listen.  This part of his talk just didn't bother me that much despite how my words may be coming across, though I understand why many are really struggling with it.  I pretty much agree with what you have been saying - context.  But the context of the whole talk with celestial families etc also plays into how people are feeling about this particular quote from it and it's hard on people.

[T-Shirt]

7 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

If you wanted to know whether a used car is mechanically sound would you solely rely on the seller’s opinion? 

Are you trying to say that those who share my faith are the equivalent of a used car salesman? I'm not sure of your point, help me see what I am missing.

Edited October 5, 2023 by T-Shirt

[Calm]

I got to take a break from the subject…give my brain a rest.    Might not get back till this evening, apologies to anyone who is left hanging.  I hate doing this in an active conversation (where people are responding as soon as I post something).  It is like leaving the room to get go something to eat or do the laundry while a family member is telling me about their day or discussing something serious.  It is just rude and sometimes mean