General Conference Thoughts

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Which is exactly my point.

You can't know how ANYONE experiences God.

Ain't that spatial?

I am feeling rather dumbfounded in myself that I misread your comment (read “can’t” as “don’t” because I put the emphasis on the wrong word).  I may (or may not  ) be confused over somethings you say, but I have got this one solid.  It is, of course, my own position.

[sunstoned]

On 10/2/2023 at 7:59 PM, Tacenda said:

I play pickleball with a group of former neighbors and others and I've known one of them for over 20 or more years. Today she was upset but trying to hide it and finally mentioned that her son who is divorced and estranged from the family had sent an email last night that was filled with anger and saying how she and her husband should never, ever talk about the church as far as converting his three young children. Maybe he got wind that his ex wife will take them to visit their grandparents. My friend was in shock at how angry he was being, even with the fall out that already took place in the last few years. I didn't say anything about it, but think the talk by Pres Nelson could have caused this severe reaction. He may have just watched for curiosity sake. He grew up in the church, both parents very stalwart, but certainly not pushy at all. The part of the talk that may have sent him over the edge was when Pres Nelson said not to take counsel from those that are non believers. And this son is a counselor and counsels people all the time, a psychologist I believe, who also has PTSD from serving in the Afghanistan war has issues. And he's probably worried about his children getting this kind of thing from the church. I am not happy with Pres Nelson's talk at all. It was very harsh. So different and opposite of his talk last conference, I'm sad about it. I'm sad for the consequence of Pres Nelson's words, and how it may hurt many parents who may not be believers, or work places or ?

Several of my collogues (most are TBM) where I teach are very upset by Nelson's talk. Saying that you should "Never take counsel of those who don't believe,”  is not only hurtful and mean, it also smacks of desperation. Saying stuff like this is not going to help with retention at all.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I am feeling rather dumbfounded in myself that I misread your comment (read “can’t” as “don’t” because I put the emphasis on the wrong word).  I may (or may not  ) be confused over somethings you say, but I have got this one solid.  It is, of course, my own position.

How do you know that what you experience as "blue" is not what someone else experiences and was taught to call "red" ?

Is that knowable?  Why do some people love Brussels sprouts while others won't touch them?

🤔

Edited October 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[let’s roll]

On 10/3/2023 at 9:25 AM, bluebell said:

The D&C says (section 59 v. 21):

And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

It might be interesting to have a discussion on why the word “offend” was used in this verse (and the many other verses that connect offending God and sin) and whether or not we can correctly say that sin offends God today in our current culture. 

The “fierce anger” of God toward those whose hearts have waxed hard, whose ears are dull of hearing and whose eyes cannot see afar off is described in Moses 6.

At the risk of sounding trite, I’ve best understood the intent and meaning of that description when I seek to understand it with a soft heart, ears ready and willing to hear and eyes open to see things afar off (looking both back and forward in time).

[JAHS]

7 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Several of my collogues (most are TBM) where I teach are very upset by Nelson's talk. Saying that you should "Never take counsel of those who don't believe,”  is not only hurtful and mean, it also smacks of desperation. Saying stuff like this is not going to help with retention at all.

Like I said in an earlier post he was obviously talking about spiritual matters or religious doctrines. Remember he was talking to members who want to go to the Celestial kingdom.
Church members go to non-member counselors all the time for help with other issues and are often referred to them by their Bishops.
Here is what he said:
"There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.”

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Like I said in an earlier post he was obviously talking about spiritual matters or religious doctrines. Remember he was talking to members who want to go to the Celestial kingdom.
Church members go to non-member counselors all the time for help with other issues and are often referred to them by their Bishops.
Here is what he said:
"There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.”

If someone’s faith can’t withstand counsel from someone outside it, perhaps it’s misplaced. Huge red flag. 

[CV75]

10 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If someone’s faith can’t withstand counsel from someone outside it, perhaps it’s misplaced. Huge red flag. 

Sometimes counsel concernong x-y-z from those who do not beleive in x-y-z is sought, and sometimes it comes from them unsolicited. The first is a red flag because it is unwise, the second is a red flag because it is boorish.

[MustardSeed]

I don’t know guys it just seems to me IMO that people want to find controversy in the prophet’s  words.  
 

There’s no way he was telling us to stay away from non Mormon advice as a blanket rule.  Honestly that’s pretty ridiculous.  
 

I take his words, look for the intent, and hear “be careful who you let in your head.”  I have a friend who used to say this all the time.  So this is how I’m taking it, 

[Navidad]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

It is.  I am extremely confident in my own ideas, but one of those ideas is I am most likely wrong.

Humans can believe contradictory things.

Methinks profound truths can also be contradictory things. I constantly have to go back to that belief.

[Navidad]

Just now, CV75 said:

Sometimes counsel concernong x-y-z from those who do not beleive in x-y-z is sought, and sometimes it comes from them unsolicited. The first is a red flag because it is unwise, the second is a red flag because it is boorish.

Are LDS missionaries boorish? I don't think so. Are Baptist missionaries boorish? I don't think so. Can LDS missionaries be boorish? Yep! Can Baptist missionaries be boorish? Yep! Sometimes I think we paint with a one-sided brush.

[Rain]

22 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Like I said in an earlier post he was obviously talking about spiritual matters or religious doctrines. Remember he was talking to members who want to go to the Celestial kingdom.
Church members go to non-member counselors all the time for help with other issues and are often referred to them by their Bishops.
Here is what he said:
"There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.”

Here is one of my concerns.  Years ago I was struggling with some gospel concept. I was talking to a nonmember friend about it.  She gave me the most beautiful advice that led me in a gospel direction.

Four years ago I was struggling with something and talked to a pastor who was there at the time.  I was surprised to find the pastor laying her hands on me and giving me a blessing that strengthened me in the way I already know God wanted me to go.

I have been at times been surrounded by truly good people - members, other Christians, Jews, Muslims who have helped me with spiritual direction as we worked together.

That last bit of the paragraph is important. "and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost". It is the Spirit I trust. It is the Spirit I trust when my non member friend prays over me and feel it is good.  It is the Spirit I trust when she says discriminatory things and I feel that is not good. It is the Spirit I trust when someone bears testimony of God's love in sacrament and I feel his love too.  It is the Spirit I trust when someone bears testimony of their own greatness and I feel it is not good.  It is the Spirit we trust when we ask investigators to trust (where we are not members of their spiritual circle) and pray.  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Sometimes counsel concernong x-y-z from those who do not beleive in x-y-z is sought, and sometimes it comes from them unsolicited. The first is a red flag because it is unwise, the second is a red flag because it is boorish.

Sounds like it’s time to cancel the missionary program!

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

Here is one of my concerns.  Years ago I was struggling with some gospel concept. I was talking to a nonmember friend about it.  She gave me the most beautiful advice that led me in a gospel direction.

Four years ago I was struggling with something and talked to a pastor who was there at the time.  I was surprised to find the pastor laying her hands on me and giving me a blessing that strengthened me in the way I already know God wanted me to go.

I have been at times been surrounded by truly good people - members, other Christians, Jews, Muslims who have helped me with spiritual direction as we worked together.

That last bit of the paragraph is important. "and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost". It is the Spirit I trust. It is the Spirit I trust when my non member friend prays over me and feel it is good.  It is the Spirit I trust when she says discriminatory things and I feel that is not good. It is the Spirit I trust when someone bears testimony of God's love in sacrament and I feel his love too.  It is the Spirit I trust when someone bears testimony of their own greatness and I feel it is not good.  It is the Spirit we trust when we ask investigators to trust (where we are not members of their spiritual circle) and pray.  

I do not believe that the prophet would be concerned about these positive experiences outside of Mormonism. I think he was referring to something else entirely. IMO

[Rain]

25 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t know guys it just seems to me IMO that people want to find controversy in the prophet’s  words.  
 

There’s no way he was telling us to stay away from non Mormon advice as a blanket rule.  Honestly that’s pretty ridiculous.  
 

I take his words, look for the intent, and hear “be careful who you let in your head.”  I have a friend who used to say this all the time.  So this is how I’m taking it, 

I think this is important.  Be careful of who you let in.  I think timing and place are also important.

I'm going to be open now. I'm struggling with my testimony. There is much I feel peace about and much I am still searching.  But your point has very much been on my mind.  Be careful of who you let in.   From the start I had that in mind.  I wasn't going to people who were negative about the church. I also found it important not to go to people who were negative about other people and churches because what I have felt happening is my protectiveness, my sense of fairness, my sense of seeing all people as God’s children kicks in and has me siding against the church because of it.

So I have limited speaking of my struggles to people who are strong, faithful, positive members of the church till now.  When teaching Sunday school I felt I had to be honest and not a wolf in sheep's clothing so I was clear from the start both with the bishopric and my class that I had testimony struggles, but other than sharing about one old Testament story I didn't tell what those struggles were because I had to be careful of who I let in and also be careful of not letting myself in to someone else's place.

I think the majority of our leaders do their best even if at times I don't feel the Spirit telling me certain things they say are true. 

 

[JAHS]

21 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I do not believe that the prophet would be concerned about these positive experiences outside of Mormonism. I think he was referring to something else entirely. IMO

Right, but some people, who are searching for ways to make the prophet or the Church look bad, like to interpret his words out of context and in the wrong way that was not intended. 

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Right, but some people, who are searching for ways to make the prophet or the Church look bad, like to interpret his words out of context and in the wrong way that was not intended. 

How many of them actually are looking for ways to make the church look bad and how many are just reacting out of pain? I realize that means there are still some people trying to make the church look bad, but I think too often we put ulterior motives on people because of their reactions and our assumptions of what those reactions mean. We go defensive instead of looking at hearts. Just as we ask people to look on leader's hearts.

[MustardSeed]

11 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Right, but some people, who are searching for ways to make the prophet or the Church look bad, like to interpret his words out of context and in the wrong way that was not intended. 

I’m sure that is true. I think people are generally more complicated than this, though. I personally feel no comfort in the prophets words because I know I am not celestial material. It’s very very painful. Sometimes fighting back is all we have.

[MustardSeed]

16 minutes ago, Rain said:

How many of them actually are looking for ways to make the church look bad and how many are just reacting out of pain? I realize that means there are still some people trying to make the church look bad, but I think too often we put ulterior motives on people because of their reactions and our assumptions of what those reactions mean. We go defensive instead of looking at hearts. Just as we ask people to look on leader's hearts.

Hm. Same brain.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Are LDS missionaries boorish? I don't think so. Are Baptist missionaries boorish? I don't think so. Can LDS missionaries be boorish? Yep! Can Baptist missionaries be boorish? Yep! Sometimes I think we paint with a one-sided brush.

Of course they can all be boorish when they offer unsolicited counsel on topics they do not beleive in. Who seeks unsolicited counsel (is that even possible? :D) concerning their faith from someone they know doesn't beleive in their faith? Unwise to say the least. Opinions are a close second!

[CV75]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Sounds like it’s time to cancel the missionary program!

See above! 

[JAHS]

23 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sure that is true. I think people are generally more complicated than this, though. I personally feel no comfort in the prophets words because I know I am not celestial material. It’s very very painful. Sometimes fighting back is all we have.

It pains me also sometimes because I know I am not Celestial material right now. I don't think any of us are right now. But his counsel is meant to help us continue in that direction and I accept his counsel knowing that he is doing it out of love for the members so that's why I don't fight back. But that is just me.

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

. But that is just me.

We are all unique. And none of us want to be boxed in. We all want to be seen and understood.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Methinks profound truths can also be contradictory things. I constantly have to go back to that belief.

Perhaps that is where we differ, which is the cause of all the drama.

And what do you mean by "things" here?

Thoughts?

Propositions? Cats vs dogs? Beliefs?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If someone’s faith can’t withstand counsel from someone outside it, perhaps it’s misplaced. Huge red flag. 

He said “those who do not believe”.  Would you see it as a red flag if he said don’t seek medical advice from someone who doesn’t believe in medicine?

I get why many read this sentence as nonmembers as it wasn’t as precise as it could have been, so one needs to read it in the context of the previous paragraph (transcript is up, btw, link below).  I think it is pretty clear however in context.  I read “those who do not believe” as nonbelievers, who do not believe in the Spirit or at least the truths of the Spirit that we believe, someone who “attacks truth”, who has “depart[ed] from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”  Truth here is spiritual truth because those who attack it want you to “question your testimony”.  A nonmember who does not try and attack your testimony, who instead supports you in your testimony, who teaches truths about spiritual things would be an appropriate counselor.

Earlier in the talk iirc, he talks about seeking professional help when struggling with an addiction.  For the vast majority of members this means seeking help from a nonmember.  There are just not that many professional LDS counselors worldwide.  It doesn’t make sense for him to be saying in the first part get counsel if needed from someone who could be a nonmember and later don’t counsel with nonmembers. 

Quote

If you struggle with an addiction, seek the spiritual and professional help you need. Please do not let an obsession rob you of your freedom to follow God’s fabulous plan.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/51nelson?lang=eng

Quote

Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.” Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation.

The key part here imo is “spiritual work”.  Why would you seek counsel that requires spiritual work, iow about spiritual things, about those things that affect your eternal status (see below) from a nonbeliever, someone who doesn’t believe in the Spirit or doesn’t believe in heaven?  

And (from the previous paragraph) why would you seek counsel about your testimony from someone you know is going to attack it?  Would you seek advice on how to better your relationship with your spouse from someone you know who hates your spouse and thinks you should get divorced?  

He is also not saying don’t associate with them at all, but not to “seek guidance”.  He did not walk off of his job when he was penalized for his faith, after all; I am thinking he probably didn’t ask these people how he should live to receive eternal life though.  Is that approach really a red flag? 

He gives an example below his comment on not seeking counsel from “those who do not believe”.  On the teaching of marriage and chastity, does it make sense to seek counsel on how best to live chaste before marriage from someone who doesn’t believe one should not engage in premarital sex and is likely instead to “attack the truth” (as described earlier).  He is saying here don’t  “make decisions” about chastity by using the guidance of someone encouraging you not to be chaste (someone is unlikely to attack the truth of chastity by telling you to be chaste).

Quote

Physical intimacy is only for a man and a woman who are married to each other.

Much of the world does not believe this, but public opinion is not the arbiter of truth.

He makes it clear as well earlier in the talk what kind of counsel he is talking about in case one is tempted to think he is talking about any kind of counsel, including what kind of car to buy, medical insurance advice, investment strategies, etc.

Quote

Mortality is a master class in learning to choose the things of greatest eternal import. Far too many people live as though this life is all there is. However, your choices today will determine three things: where you will live throughout all eternity, the kind of body with which you will be resurrected, and those with whom you will live forever. So think celestial.

In my first message as President of the Church, I encouraged you to begin with the end in mind. This means making the celestial kingdom your eternal goal and then carefully considering where each of your decisions while here on earth will place you in the next world.

He is talking about getting help, getting counsel for making decisions that affect our eternal status.  The kind of car we buy, the medical insurance we choose to purchase, what we invest in are not likely to affect our eternal status (unless perhaps we listen to someone who counsels us to knowingly invest in funds that depend on abusive labor practices like slave labor and sweatshops and such immoral financial practices).

Edited October 5, 2023 by Calm

[Smiley McGee]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Which is exactly my point.

You can't know how ANYONE experiences God.

Ya we’ve been through this multiple times before. I agree with you here. No need to rehash this.