How Bad Is the Exodus?

[Stargazer]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

Start with goats.  Baby goats love to climb on anything.  If you can get used to them thinking of you as an edible mountain, move on up to sheep.  After a few smashed toes from being walked on when your full body shoves are ignored, you are ready to move on up to cows and horses.  Best way to do it though, imo, is to live around the block from your very good friend, who lives on a farm and is obsessed with being self sufficient and has a dream to have horses too.  That way you don’t have to live with the smell 24/7 and can pick and choose what you want to help with (taking care of the babies, brushing down the horses) and get all sorts of goodies to take home.  Only real downsides are the roosters waking you up when sleeping with the windows open and avoiding manure on walks.  Sadly don’t see many of those these days as we have lost a lot of the small farms and ranches to houses, but I understand why they want to move here even if the ideal would be to shut the gate after we moved in, lol.

My stepdaughter is amazing. She and her husband have six children all under the age of 10 (intentionally), three Rottweilers, a cat, and two horses. With all except the horses crammed into one tiny apartment. If she had a few acres I just know she would add goats and chickens to the mix. She should have become a veterinarian I think, but instead she's a midwife. She definitely needs a small farm.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

No. He’s a former member of the LDS church who began a very prominent podcast, grew openly hostile to the church, and was excommunicated around 7-8 years ago. He grew up in the church in Texas, served a mission, married in temple, etc. He’s lived in Utah for many years and his podcast is still what he’s best known for in LDS circles. 

That explains why I have never heard of him. So is he unaffiliated with any faith group now? Anecdotally, it seems to me that a lot, perhaps a majority (I really don't know) of folks who leave the LDS church remain unaffiliated with any other faith group. I have no data, just a hunch.

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, Navidad said:

That explains why I have never heard of him. So is he unaffiliated with any faith group now? Anecdotally, it seems to me that a lot, perhaps a majority (I really don't know) of folks who leave the LDS church remain unaffiliated with any other faith group. I have no data, just a hunch.

Some of us are wary of being burned twice. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

So is he unaffiliated with any faith group now?

He is the leader of his own faith group: The Church of John Dehlin of the Holy Podcast. They have their own worship services, general conferences, offerings, orthodoxies, hierarchy, and heresies.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[BluePlanet]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Here's the thing: the huge push to get everyone to declare that they are really LGBTQ+ and as many of them as possible to undergo sex-change mutilation is a hype-filled, media-driven, cultural change machine. Virtually nobody is actually "queer" -- they identify with the Zeitgeist and want to show off about how "in tune" they are. In my youth, those of us who wanted to identify with the Zeitgeist let our hair grow long, wore bell-bottoms and tight trousers, short skirts, brightly-colored shirts and midriff-showing blouses. The girls with the chops went to the dimly-lit dances braless with nearly transparent blouses (except for strategically-placed opaque pockets). The rebellious who wanted to demonstrate their rebelliousness cadged cigarettes off their even more rebellious compatriots who could afford their own smokes -- and smoked them out behind the gym in a demonstration of rebel solidarity. 

So now you get everyone declaring how "queer" they are. Let me tell you, I was queer back then. I wore baggy grey or brown trousers (with pleats! and cuffs!), earth-toned shirts, didn't pretend to like smoking and drinking. And then I joined the Mormon church and became even more queer.

Many would agree with you, and it seems to me there is an element of faddishness in play. I'm not denying that. That said, I know nearly every one of these kids and except for one, their declarations have been a long time in the making, appear internally consistent, and are corroborated by their parents' observations. I think it is too simplistic to assume that most of these kids will get back to "normal" once (if?) this era plays out and they just get through this phase.

But Stargazer, regardless: you're a leader of these youth. What do you tell them? What's your prescription? How do you treat them? I read so many statements like "society is going to hell, everyone is queer now, these youth are all nuts and screwed up."  Ok, what's your solution? What treatment do you send a trans girl to so she doesn't wear a suit to church, cut her hair like a boy, and attend with the Deacons? (happening in our ward now).  These are our youth.  And at least right now, many of them are still engaged with us.  I fear too many answers on this topic are too glib and ignore the lived realities of the situation.  (In a few weeks, we are having a regional seminary meeting -- all teachers -- on how to better minister to LGBT kids.  A few months ago, our stake president called a meeting with every youth leader in the stake to discuss the issue and try, at a minimum, to at least get certain ultra-conservative youth leaders to do what the church actually says with regard to LGBT individuals.  For example, call them the name they want to be called, respect their decision to identify in the way they want to identify, use the pronouns they want used.  It's all in the handbook.)

[Stargazer]

Just now, BluePlanet said:

Many would agree with you, and it seems to me there is an element of faddishness in play. I'm not denying that. That said, I know nearly every one of these kids and except for one, their declarations have been a long time in the making, appear internally consistent, and are corroborated by their parents' observations. I think it is too simplistic to assume that most of these kids will get back to "normal" once (if?) this era plays out and they just get through this phase.

But Stargazer, regardless: you're a leader of these youth. What do you tell them? What's your prescription? How do you treat them? I read so many statements like "society is going to hell, everyone is queer now, these youth are all nuts and screwed up."  Ok, what's your solution? What treatment do you send a trans girl to so she doesn't wear a suit to church, cut her hair like a boy, and attend with the Deacons? (happening in our ward now).  These are our youth.  And at least right now, many of them are still engaged with us.  I fear too many answers on this topic are too glib and ignore the lived realities of the situation.  (In a few weeks, we are having a regional seminary meeting -- all teachers -- on how to better minister to LGBT kids.  A few months ago, our stake president called a meeting with every youth leader in the stake to discuss the issue and try, at a minimum, to at least get certain ultra-conservative youth leaders to do what the church actually says with regard to LGBT individuals.  For example, call them the name they want to be called, respect their decision to identify in the way they want to identify, use the pronouns they want used.  It's all in the handbook.)

There's a reason why I've never been called to be a adult youth leader: I'd be much worse than useless. I was a misfit in junior high and in high school, and I never could relate to my peers. So, if I were a leader of these youth, I'd have to have to have some deadly serious revelation/inspiration before I'd even be able to deal with the issue. And I don't got it; not even a glimmer of a inkling. Sorry!

But why the heck is this happening, anyway? I suspect Satan is working overtime, knowing that his Moment is approaching. I know that God knows how to deal with this; I certainly don't.

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, but it's happening here in the UK, too.

Amongst members?

As I posted before, a family in our ward recently moved here from Alberta, Canada, and were dumbfounded to discover that fully one-quarter of the kids in their daughter's kindergarten class identify as 'non-binary'. ('We're coming for your children', and the younger, the better!) But our active membership has been virtually untouched by this up-welling madness. I suspect it helps that we have long experience here recognising and teaching our children to see through socio-cultural fads of various kinds. This has never been an easy or comfortable place to be a disciple of Jesus.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Stargazer]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

Amongst members?

Not that I've noticed, but my circulation is rather limited.

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

As I posted before, a family in our ward recently moved here from Alberta, Canada, and were dumbfounded to discover that fully one-quarter of the kids in their daughter's kindergarten class identify as 'non-binary' ('We're coming for your children', and the younger, the better!) But our active membership has been virtually untouched by this up-welling madness. I suspect it helps that we have long experience here recognising and teaching our children to see through socio-cultural fads of various kinds. This has never been an easy or comfortable place to be a disciple of Jesus.

It's a fad. A very harmful fad, because it's being treated seriously enough to be acted upon medically with young children who can't comprehend what being non-binary even is.

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

It's a fad. A very harmful fad, because it's being treated seriously enough to be acted upon medically with young children who can't comprehend what being non-binary even is.

It's the 21st-century version of allowing children to be sacrificed to Moloch or Baal. I used to wonder what kind of social/cultural context would be necessary for a society to go along with that, but now we can see it for ourselves in real time.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Chum]

17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's the 21st-century version of allowing children to be sacrificed to Moloch or Baal.

Oh you young people today and all your equating of gender affirming care with covering infants with flammable liquid, setting them alight and then listening to the bewildered, prolonged screams of utter agony, eventually dying down to whimpers until their lungs char and they can't even manage that.

In my day, we just believed in fairy tale chemical weapons to justify bombing children from high altitude.

[Buckeye]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

That explains why I have never heard of him. So is he unaffiliated with any faith group now? Anecdotally, it seems to me that a lot, perhaps a majority (I really don't know) of folks who leave the LDS church remain unaffiliated with any other faith group. I have no data, just a hunch.

I don’t know him personally but believe he is not a member of any other church. He’ll have people from other faiths on his podcast if there’s some overlap with LDS issues but I’ve never gotten the sense he’s trying to address any faith beyond the one he grew up in. His podcast is called Mormon Stories. 
Your hunch fits my experience. I’m sure you could find posts about that observation on this board. It’s a widely held view with lots of theories why. 

[Kenngo1969]

Mr. Dehlin, I thought, did get "ordained" (for however much that costs these days), in order to officiate at the wedding of a friend.  Or perhaps I am misremembering.

[cacheman]

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Amongst members?

As I posted before, a family in our ward recently moved here from Alberta, Canada, and were dumbfounded to discover that fully one-quarter of the kids in their daughter's kindergarten class identify as 'non-binary'.....

In future recountings of this story, I recommend you go back to using the "literally 1/10" version.  The "fully one-quarter" revision definitely has more shock value, but the earlier version is more believable.

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:33 AM, jkwilliams said:

As long as I can remember, some apostates have been predicting the imminent demise of the church. Everyone's leaving, and the church is rapidly collapsing, they say. I think I mentioned before that I had a long conversation with a good exmo friend years ago that we would know things had reached a "critical mass" (at least a significant number of departures) when we saw conference talks and church magazine articles about people leaving, and church discussion of the issues that are the proximate cause of questioning. Neither of us thought we'd see that for many years, but obviously, all of that has happened.

I'm not predicting a mass exodus, but I'm wondering what you guys are seeing locally. I know, it's just anecdotal, but I keep having the same experience over and over: someone I've known for years (decades, even) is now out of the church. Some examples just recently:

• Two family members, both returned missionaries and temple married, have left the church with their spouses and children.
• A family of 8 siblings whom I have known for a long time have all left the church.
• A former colleague from the Church Office Building is now a Presbyterian chaplain.
• A young woman whom we have known since she was born and who served in our area in Virginia as a missionary is now selling coffee for charity and talking about how church leaders pressured her into not reporting a ward member for abusing her for years.
• Another COB colleague who wrote one of the hymns in the LDS hymnbook is now living happily with his also-exmormon husband.
• A couple of missionary companions and a zone leader from my mission have recently left.
• A good friend from my BYU days just divorced his wife, came out as gay, and left the church.

These examples are just from the last few months. I am not suggesting that my anecdotal experience is at all representative, but at least in my circles, there seems to be something happening. Am I just imagining that something has changed?

Not unexpected. Going as predicted. Parable of the Sower comes to mind.

Quote

And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood. And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree. And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost…And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward…even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree. And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed. And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld…a great and spacious building…And it was filled with people…they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit…And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. Lehi/Nephi.

Quote

But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions. Neal Maxwell.

Quote

Those of us who think “. . . all is well in Zion . . .” in spite of Book of Mormon warning might ponder the words of Heber C. Kimball when he said, “Yes, we think we are secure here in the chambers of these everlasting hills . . . but I want to say to you, my brethren, the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God. Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.” (Heber C. Kimball, 1856. Quoted by J. Golden Kimball, Conference Report, October 1930, pp. 59-60.)

When the Savior was crucified, his followers could be counted on two hands and two feet.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Meadowchik]

On 8/24/2022 at 10:53 PM, Chum said:

Wholly cow. That's seriously frightening. I am really glad you've got a hot lead. Let us know that it worked out. Godspeed.

The very few rentals here req a top credit scores and are 30%-140% higher than 2020. No shelters or social net (southern state). Options here are trespassing in a tent and then jail maybe.  Folks with savings can burn thru it in a hotel first.

I am literally on my way to our new home (in the passenger seat) albeit in a rush hour traffic jam, but I have keys!!

[jkwilliams]

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I am literally on my way to our new home (in the passenger seat) albeit in a rush hour traffic jam, but I have keys!!

So glad for you!

[ttribe]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not unexpected. Going as predicted. Parable of the Sower comes to mind.

When the Savior was crucified, his followers could be counted on two hands and two feet.

When the Church is labeled the fastest growing in the nation/world - "It's the Stone Cut from the Mountain Without Hands! The Church is fulfilling prophecy!"

When there is an exodus of good people from the Church - "Not unexpected. Going as predicted. Parable of the Sower comes to mind."

Classic example of 'Heads I win, tails you lose.'

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Mr. Dehlin, I thought, did get "ordained" (for however much that costs these days), in order to officiate at the wedding of a friend.  Or perhaps I am misremembering.

My very true believing LDS friend also got ordained through the internet, not sure if that's the word, to officiate at a friend, or relatives, can't remember, marriage.

[bluebell]

Just now, ttribe said:

When the Church is labeled the fastest growing in the nation/world - "It's the Stone Cut from the Mountain Without Hands! The Church is fulfilling prophecy!"

When there is an exodus of good people from the Church - "Not unexpected. Going as predicted. Parable of the Sower comes to mind."

Classic example of 'Heads I win, tails you lose.'

It's pretty cool how the bible is playing the long game. 

Prophesying the waxing and the waning, which both end up becoming true, and can so handily be used by believers and ex/nonbelievers to argue how their perception is obviously the only one that doesn't sound dumb.   

[jkwilliams]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's pretty cool how the bible is playing the long game. 

Prophesying the waxing and the waning, which both end up becoming true, and can so handily be used by believers and ex/nonbelievers to argue how their perception is obviously the only one that doesn't sound dumb.   

For what it's worth, I haven't commented on what the growth of the church signifies. I'm just curious as to whether people are seeing the same thing I am. Sounds like some, but not all, are.

[Peacefully]

15 hours ago, BluePlanet said:

Many would agree with you, and it seems to me there is an element of faddishness in play. I'm not denying that. That said, I know nearly every one of these kids and except for one, their declarations have been a long time in the making, appear internally consistent, and are corroborated by their parents' observations. I think it is too simplistic to assume that most of these kids will get back to "normal" once (if?) this era plays out and they just get through this phase.

But Stargazer, regardless: you're a leader of these youth. What do you tell them? What's your prescription? How do you treat them? I read so many statements like "society is going to hell, everyone is queer now, these youth are all nuts and screwed up."  Ok, what's your solution? What treatment do you send a trans girl to so she doesn't wear a suit to church, cut her hair like a boy, and attend with the Deacons? (happening in our ward now).  These are our youth.  And at least right now, many of them are still engaged with us.  I fear too many answers on this topic are too glib and ignore the lived realities of the situation.  (In a few weeks, we are having a regional seminary meeting -- all teachers -- on how to better minister to LGBT kids.  A few months ago, our stake president called a meeting with every youth leader in the stake to discuss the issue and try, at a minimum, to at least get certain ultra-conservative youth leaders to do what the church actually says with regard to LGBT individuals.  For example, call them the name they want to be called, respect their decision to identify in the way they want to identify, use the pronouns they want used.  It's all in the handbook.)

Thank you. You are a breath of fresh air. When I was the YW President, I had a counselor who was bisexual, one YW who went by an alternate male name away from church, one who was agnostic, and one who was either gay or bi. My other counselor and I treated them all with love and respect. We didn’t try to change anyone. We loved them, did activities with them and shared testimonies. I hope they left with a better feeling towards the church because of this. 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, ttribe said:

When the Church is labeled the fastest growing in the nation/world - "It's the Stone Cut from the Mountain Without Hands! The Church is fulfilling prophecy!"

When there is an exodus of good people from the Church - "Not unexpected. Going as predicted. Parable of the Sower comes to mind."

It’s been a long time since I heard “fastest growing church in the world.” Certainly not in the last 10 years. I don’t believe that was a label invented by the Church. 

Quote

The National Council of Churches published its 2009 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, where it listed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the fourth-largest religion in the United States. However, the Church itself makes no statistical comparisons with other churches and makes no claim to be the fastest-growing Christian denomination…

Like other faiths, the Church has varying degrees of growth among its members throughout the world. For example, the Church shows relatively slow growth in Northern Europe, where many other churches are declining. It has steady and manageable growth in the United States (the third fastest growing after Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventist) and is expanding rapidly in Africa and South America, as well as in east Asia…

A new study released in early May 2012 shows the rapid growth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the United States. 

The 2010 Religious Congregations and Membership Study shows that mainline Protestantism and Catholicism are losing members while Mormonism is growing faster than any other religion in America. The study is conducted every ten years and is able to follow the religious affiliations of Americans county by county. The LDS Church gained 2 million new adherents and new congregations in 295 counties where they didn't exist a decade ago, making it the fastest-growing church in 26 U.S. states, and thereby the fastest-growing group in the U.S.

https://www.mormonwiki.com/Fastest_Growing_Church

People are leaving all religions. This is a world-wide phenomenon.

Quote

Classic example of 'Heads I win, tails you lose.

I don’t agree. The prophesies are there for scrutiny and what they predict is happening. I did not say that those who leave are bad people.

The Tree of Life vision acknowledges that good people (some who had climbed the path and partaken of the fruit) will fall away.✔️

Elder Kimball’s statement describes exactly what is happening.✔️

Elder Maxwell observed that the choice will be between following the First Presidency or not.✔️

Jesus did lose almost all of his followers.✔️

The Book of Mormon says the Church numbers will be few.✔️

In my experience all this is quite accurate. People do what they want to do.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My very true believing LDS friend also got ordained through the internet, not sure if that's the word, to officiate at a friend, or relatives, can't remember, marriage.

Very easy to do. 

 

Quote

If you are looking for a way to become a minister without a big hassle, then doing so online is the best option for you. Fill out the form to become ordained so you can perform the religious ceremonies you desire.  https://getordained.org/become-a-minister

Edited August 26, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Teancum]

On 8/24/2022 at 4:07 PM, ksfisher said:

This would seem to be oxymoronic, don't you think?

Better said former active believing members.  But I think you understood my point.😏

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:26 AM, Rivers said:

If the exodus is really that bad, why are so many temples being announced still?  Is temple building any indication of the church’s strength in numbers?

Temple proliferation is perhaps the best indicator of what some have called “real growth,” as it takes a critical mass of members who qualify for a temple recommend to sustain a temple in a given geographical area. 
 

This might not be directly related to the frequency of departures from the Church, but assuming this is happening more frequently, I don’t know that it’s something we need to panic over. The Book of Mormon is clear in its prophecy that in the last days the Savior’s church would remain (proportionately) few in number on a global scale. I think this logically presupposes that a substantial portion would fall away after having received the covenant.
 

There is also scripture to the effect that even the very elect will be deceived.