How Bad Is the Exodus?

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

This would seem to be oxymoronic, don't you think?

No, because there are opposing or at the very least inconsistent ideologies and viewpoints alive in the church. People trying to resolve them may decide their integrity requires a break off from it.

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Where I grew up in California the church is really in decline. Our building once housed three wards; now it’s just one. Our stake center once housed three wards and a Spanish-language branch. The building is now for sale. What once were 4 stakes are now one spread-out stake with a few wards. I’m not sure what has caused the decline, but I don’t think it’s people leaving the church. 

All the Saints I knew well who lived in California (lost count, over 50, at least 25 families), outside on one sister-in-law whose husband still works there and gets a good salary, have moved out of California starting back in the 80’s, mostly due to economic costs. A few were tired of the hoops they had to jump through for their work and the fees they were obligated to pay for, in their view, nothing. I, otoh, got married and left and ended up mid continent and so far his university jobs haven’t taken him anywhere near the West Coast or even the East Coast and now probably never will nor is my university job ever likely to because if I ever get one it will be in the next life, which is all very disappointing to me as I wanted to retire on a beach. Mountains are an acceptable  second choice, I just wish we were actually up in the mountains instead of looking at them. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Calm

[MorningStar]

23 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Where I grew up in California the church is really in decline. Our building once housed three wards; now it’s just one. Our stake center once housed three wards and a Spanish-language branch. The building is now for sale. What once were 4 stakes are now one spread-out stake with a few wards. I’m not sure what has caused the decline, but I don’t think it’s people leaving the church. 

Washington, Oregon, and California all made people's lives a living Hell with lockdowns. That's a big one. So many of my friends got fed up and left. My MIL is two states away and all the grandkids can visit her in the hospital. At the same time, my mom was allowed one visitor (previously none) until they determined she was end of life. Then four were allowed, but not together. We took her home for hospice so we didn't have to draw straws as to who got to be with her when she died and so everyone could say goodbye.

My husband was in the hospital last week and our 7-year-old wasn't allowed to come visit him because she's under 13 and "covid policy." This is utter crap. He went in for surgery and she didn't get to come give him a hug. This makes me want to leave, but I'm staying as long as my dad is alive. 

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

It could be church member don’t like living in California. Demographic shifts of an area.

Or can’t afford to live there at least in the more coastal areas.

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

All the Saints I knew well who lived in California (lost count, over 50, at least 25 families), outside on one sister-in-law whose husband still works there and gets a good salary, have moved out of California starting back in the 80’s, mostly due to economic costs. A few were tired of the hoops they had to jump through for their work and the fees they were obligated to pay for, in their view, nothing. I, otoh, got married and left and ended up mid continent and so far his university jobs haven’t taken him anywhere near the West Coast or even the East Coast and now probably never will nor is my university job ever likely to because if I ever get one it will be in the next life, which is all very disappointing to me as I wanted to retire on a beach. Mountains are an acceptable  second choice, I just wish we were actually up in the mountains instead of looking at them. 

I’m pretty sure most of it is cost of living. 

[Chum]

20 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

That's ironic, this is actually the brink I've been teetering on the last several days. With many people depending on me too. Realistically it would be temporary and we'd never be out on the streets because we have friends and a social safety net, but it would still be traumatic for us if we were forced to seek last-resort shelter.... But I think I have found a solution today and should be moving into a new less expensive place soon.

Wholly cow. That's seriously frightening. I am really glad you've got a hot lead. Let us know that it worked out. Godspeed.

The very few rentals here req a top credit scores and are 30%-140% higher than 2020. No shelters or social net (southern state). Options here are trespassing in a tent and then jail maybe.  Folks with savings can burn thru it in a hotel first.

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Or can’t afford to live there at least in the more coastal areas.

Ugh. So many from hyper-expensive areas came to Tampa, it caused the sharpest housing spikes in the nation.

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Where I grew up in California the church is really in decline. Our building once housed three wards; now it’s just one. Our stake center once housed three wards and a Spanish-language branch. The building is now for sale. What once were 4 stakes are now one spread-out stake with a few wards. I’m not sure what has caused the decline, but I don’t think it’s people leaving the church. 

My parents had a conversation with some members from California a few weeks ago and per them, all the members are leaving the state. It's becoming so bad that some leadership has started to beg members to stay I guess.

[Stargazer]

48 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Where I grew up in California the church is really in decline. Our building once housed three wards; now it’s just one. Our stake center once housed three wards and a Spanish-language branch. The building is now for sale. What once were 4 stakes are now one spread-out stake with a few wards. I’m not sure what has caused the decline, but I don’t think it’s people leaving the church. 

Over the years, my old ward in Olympia, Washington experienced periodic expansions and contractions due to economy and employment. Olympia being the state capital, the entire stake was filled with state employees, and as that population went up and down depending upon politics and the economy, the stake did likewise. We also had a major employer in Intel, which had a massive facility just a few miles east of Olympia. And then Intel had a few bad years, and while that installation didn't close, it reduced its activity by over half, and we had a bunch of move-outs as a result.

I haven't been back there in over a year, but the last time I went back, in 2021, the old ward was just as busy as it always was -- although there were a lot of new members I had never met. It might be even busier than ever. The stake also added a Spanish-speaking branch.

My  brother lives in a Portland-area stake, and they seemed quite busy the last time I was there, which was 2021. 

I think there is no general decline, but there are regional ones -- and regional resurgences, too.

[Stargazer]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My parents had a conversation with some members from California a few weeks ago and per them, all the members are leaving the state. It's becoming so bad that some leadership has started to beg members to stay I guess.

California is suffering from economic and political emigration, I think. 

[Duncan]

59 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Where I grew up in California the church is really in decline. Our building once housed three wards; now it’s just one. Our stake center once housed three wards and a Spanish-language branch. The building is now for sale. What once were 4 stakes are now one spread-out stake with a few wards. I’m not sure what has caused the decline, but I don’t think it’s people leaving the church. 

people move, economic shifts. I served in the Glendale area, I remember we baptized 60 people in 3 months and probably within 5 years of my going home they closed the Stake and now everyone attends La Crescenta. I wonder how that stake is doing and how things are going

[Fair Dinkum]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

in all fairness there was one stake closed recently, the Lichfield Stake-IIRC it was the only one in a long time.

Thank you for confirming that what my family told me was true.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Fair Dinkum

[mrmarklin]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Where I grew up in California the church is really in decline. Our building once housed three wards; now it’s just one. Our stake center once housed three wards and a Spanish-language branch. The building is now for sale. What once were 4 stakes are now one spread-out stake with a few wards. I’m not sure what has caused the decline, but I don’t think it’s people leaving the church. 

I live in the SF Bay Area and your observations are exactly correct.  The problem is the cost of housing.  It takes two incomes to buy a "starter" home that may cost in many parts of the Bay Area just under a $million.  The home prices in my area start around $800K on up.  We are talking 3-1 or 3-2 ranch style homes with no significant land.  The two earner lifestyle is not conducive to raising families.  Nor is a smaller home.

So the Wards in the area have hollowed out.  The town I live in once had 4 wards almost 40 years ago and it now has one!  Likely smaller than any one of the previous wards.

The growing areas in California are where the housing is significantly cheaper and the commute is brutal.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, BluePlanet said:

One third of our ward's YW identify as queer.  About a fourth of my seminary class identify this way.  Similar trends are found in every ward in our stake.

This is a perfect example of what I meant when I wrote above that much of what I read on this topic sounds culturally bound and specifically American-centric.

[SkyRock]

This isn't new.   I grew up in SoCal.  Our stake merged in the late 70s with another, as people started moving to the suburbs further out.  We had a lot of small wards with small buildings.  Some became Spanish speaking wards.  A lot just went away. 

So many people moved away from California because of cost of living and job opportunities, like I did. 

I haven't lived there since the 90s.  My current ward, not in Utah, is rather small geographically, but large in members.   Our entire stake is full of active wards with lots of members.

In our ward,  I know one brother who left the church.   It might have had something to do with his girlfriend he had before he divorced his wife. 

We have a couple families where the parents are "too busy", so don't go to church. 

We have one formerly active family where the wife recently got angry at the church, so the husband stopped coming so as to not cause problems with his wife. 

We have had a bunch of convert baptisms, with several more scheduled.

In every ward I have been in, in many parts of the country, we have had people leave the church.  

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

All the Saints I knew well who lived in California (lost count, over 50, at least 25 families), outside on one sister-in-law whose husband still works there and gets a good salary, have moved out of California starting back in the 80’s, mostly due to economic costs. A few were tired of the hoops they had to jump through for their work and the fees they were obligated to pay for, in their view, nothing. I, otoh, got married and left and ended up mid continent and so far his university jobs haven’t taken him anywhere near the West Coast or even the East Coast and now probably never will nor is my university job ever likely to because if I ever get one it will be in the next life, which is all very disappointing to me as I wanted to retire on a beach. Mountains are an acceptable  second choice, I just wish we were actually up in the mountains instead of looking at them. 

I love your dream of living either on a mountain or a beach. I'm such a weirdo, I want to live on a farm, and I'm even afraid of horses or large farm animals but would hopefully get use to them, being a city girl.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

live in the SF Bay Area

Where (only if you don’t mind sharing)?  I am in the mood for a walk down memory lane.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I love your dream of living either on a mountain or a beach. I'm such a weirdo, I want to live on a farm, and I'm even afraid of horses or large farm animals but would hopefully get use to them, being a city girl.

Start with goats.  Baby goats love to climb on anything.  If you can get used to them thinking of you as an edible mountain, move on up to sheep.  After a few smashed toes from being walked on when your full body shoves are ignored, you are ready to move on up to cows and horses.  Best way to do it though, imo, is to live around the block from your very good friend, who lives on a farm and is obsessed with being self sufficient and has a dream to have horses too.  That way you don’t have to live with the smell 24/7 and can pick and choose what you want to help with (taking care of the babies, brushing down the horses) and get all sorts of goodies to take home.  Only real downsides are the roosters waking you up when sleeping with the windows open and avoiding manure on walks.  Sadly don’t see many of those these days as we have lost a lot of the small farms and ranches to houses, but I understand why they want to move here even if the ideal would be to shut the gate after we moved in, lol.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Start with goats.  Baby goats love to climb on anything.  If you can get used to them thinking of you as an edible mountain, move on up to sheep.  After a few smashed toes from being walked on when your full body shoves are ignored, you are ready to move on up to cows and horses.

I grew up with sheep, cattle, and a horse. Personally, I'd take the latter two over sheep or goats any day! I was 8 when first tasked with feeding the cattle in the evening, and after I had done so, I loved to stand between their huge, warm bodies as they placidly munched on the hay. And I can't remember not feeling safe on the back of a horse.

But sheep!  I think I still have a few hoof prints on me ... or at least the memory of being endlessly knocked over and trampled ...

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I grew up with sheep, cattle, and a horse. Personally, I'd take the latter two over sheep or goats any day! I was 8 when first tasked with feeding the cattle in the evening, and after I had done so, I loved to stand between their huge, warm bodies as they placidly munched on the hay. And I can't remember not feeling safe on the back of a horse.

But sheep!  I think I still have a few hoof prints on me ... or at least the memory of being endlessly knocked over and trampled ...

From what I hear you are right about who is easier to work with, but if it is the size that is intimidating, smaller first seemed to work best for my kids and grandkids.  But then my max was three full grown sheep walking home from church after a nativity play/petting zoo.  They wanted to cruise the main drag until they got within smelling distance of home.  I did have a shepherd’s crook, but whacking them hard enough to turn wasn’t in me…assuming it would work. But we eventually got back to the farm and my husband saved me some food for when I got back to church (advantages of small town Utah, living two blocks from church is you can disappear mid program and still make it back for the food even if hobbling on a bruised foot).

[Navidad]

23 hours ago, ttribe said:

John Dehlin is a self-promoting opportunist, and I say this with all the energy my blackened ex-mo heart can muster.

I never heard of John Dehlin until today. If he is an Evangelical, he certainly is not very prominent. Ditto if he is a Fundamentalist. Is he connected with any non-LDS Christian denomination? Thanks.

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I never heard of John Dehlin until today. If he is an Evangelical, he certainly is not very prominent. Ditto if he is a Fundamentalist. Is he connected with any non-LDS Christian denomination? Thanks.

No. He’s a former member of the LDS church who began a very prominent podcast, grew openly hostile to the church, and was excommunicated around 7-8 years ago. He grew up in the church in Texas, served a mission, married in temple, etc. He’s lived in Utah for many years and his podcast is still what he’s best known for in LDS circles. 

[Buckeye]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Start with goats.  Baby goats love to climb on anything.  If you can get used to them thinking of you as an edible mountain, move on up to sheep.  After a few smashed toes from being walked on when your full body shoves are ignored, you are ready to move on up to cows and horses.  Best way to do it though, imo, is to live around the block from your very good friend, who lives on a farm and is obsessed with being self sufficient and has a dream to have horses too.  That way you don’t have to live with the smell 24/7 and can pick and choose what you want to help with (taking care of the babies, brushing down the horses) and get all sorts of goodies to take home.  Only real downsides are the roosters waking you up when sleeping with the windows open and avoiding manure on walks.  Sadly don’t see many of those these days as we have lost a lot of the small farms and ranches to houses, but I understand why they want to move here even if the ideal would be to shut the gate after we moved in, lol.

Sheep! 
 

 

 

[Stargazer]

On 8/24/2022 at 5:49 PM, BluePlanet said:

One third of our ward's YW identify as queer.  About a fourth of my seminary class identify this way.  Similar trends are found in every ward in our stake.

Here's the thing: the huge push to get everyone to declare that they are really LGBTQ+ and as many of them as possible to undergo sex-change mutilation is a hype-filled, media-driven, cultural change machine. Virtually nobody is actually "queer" -- they identify with the Zeitgeist and want to show off about how "in tune" they are. In my youth, those of us who wanted to identify with the Zeitgeist let our hair grow long, wore bell-bottoms and tight trousers, short skirts, brightly-colored shirts and midriff-showing blouses. The girls with the chops went to the dimly-lit dances braless with nearly transparent blouses (except for strategically-placed opaque pockets). The rebellious who wanted to demonstrate their rebelliousness cadged cigarettes off their even more rebellious compatriots who could afford their own smokes -- and smoked them out behind the gym in a demonstration of rebel solidarity. 

So now you get everyone declaring how "queer" they are. Let me tell you, I was queer back then. I wore baggy grey or brown trousers (with pleats! and cuffs!), earth-toned shirts, didn't pretend to like smoking and drinking. And then I joined the Mormon church and became even more queer.

[Stargazer]

22 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is a perfect example of what I meant when I wrote above that much of what I read on this topic sounds culturally bound and specifically American-centric.

Yeah, but it's happening here in the UK, too.