Top three issues

[InCognitus]

This probably fits into several things that people have already said here.

1. Secularism.  When people are taught to doubt their prior spiritual experiences by being told they were nothing more than natural human responses and not something that comes from God.
2. Black and white thinking (strappinglad said this too).
3. The church requires too much of people and they have "better things" to do with their time.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1. Disengagement from the work of salvation, leading to a lack of recent spiritual experiences, which then leads to a sense of dissatisfaction or burnout.
2. Absence of personal revelation. (I think this is closely tied into no. 1 as I'm most likely to receive revelation when I need it to be able to minister to someone else, but it's enough different that it deserves its own listing.)
3. Being more familiar with and/or converted to some version of Church culture than the actual doctrines and practices.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Broker]

1. They stop reading the scriptures

2. They stop praying.

3. They stop paying tithing.

After those three, they pick a convenient reason to leave.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m asking only for a list, not a discussion. That would be for other threads. 
 

IYO, what are the top three issues that cause members to question and possibly leave the Church?

I would suggest you might want to ask those who leave/left.  The reasons can be numerous and differ for many and varies. Unfortunately may of the comments from the  believers here I believe miss the mark and reflect their own confirmation bias and need to deflect to blame reasons.  Blaming the leave taker is a mechanism the believer uses to maintain testimony and faith. If the believers really want to know then they should ask and listen honestly.

[secondclasscitizen]

My three reasons. Not why I believe others leave, but why I will leave unless my mind is changed:

1. Leaders of the church going all the way back to Joseph smith lying to the members. It became very clear to me reading the gospel topics essays and researching when the church knew the truth about history, first vision, seer stone that we as members have been lied to for decades. This is especially evident when you examine the published curriculum the church used/uses for Sunday school and seminary. 
 

2. The church concealing the fact mission presidents are compensated materially for their services, their kids’ missions and college paid for etc with the expectation they are not to pay taxes, not to pay tithing on the gain and not to tell anyone about it. The rest of us are expected to pay tithing on the very money we support ourselves with and yet they are given a pass. Some will say well they didn’t gain or have increase so no tithing owed. Ok then why do I owe on the money I spend to support myself and sent my kids on missions? Double standard and smacks of good ole boys club.

3. General authorities are paid ministry. I don’t have a problem with that. I have a problem with the church leaders telling us they have no paid leaders. That statement is a straight up lie. 
 

Bottom line is dishonesty is baked into the culture and behavior of our priesthood leaders and that all starts on their missions.

Edited July 8, 2021 by secondclasscitizen

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I would suggest you might want to ask those who leave/left.  The reasons can be numerous and differ for many and varies. Unfortunately may of the comments from the  believers here I believe miss the mark and reflect their own confirmation bias and need to deflect to blame reasons.  Blaming the leave taker is a mechanism the believer uses to maintain testimony and faith. If the believers really want to know then they should ask and listen honestly.

I did ask / was informed by no-longer-believers, came up with their list, and you gave me a down-vote anyway! LOL

Maybe my set of unbelievers believe differently than yours.

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m asking only for a list, not a discussion. That would be for other threads. 
 

IYO, what are the top three issues that cause members to question and possibly leave the Church?

It seems many are conflating the reasons for leaving with the causes for leaving, which requires a bit more self-awareness and a bit less rationalizing.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I would suggest you might want to ask those who leave/left.  The reasons can be numerous and differ for many and varies. Unfortunately may of the comments from the  believers here I believe miss the mark and reflect their own confirmation bias and need to deflect to blame reasons.  Blaming the leave taker is a mechanism the believer uses to maintain testimony and faith. If the believers really want to know then they should ask and listen honestly.

This is just as dismissive of the experiences of those who have chosen to stay.
There is nothing that those who choose to leave faced that those who choose to stay haven't also faced.  It's not about blame.  It's about everyone facing the same challenges to their faith and people having different responses.
The idea that those who stay don't understand those who leave is reaching.

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m asking only for a list, not a discussion. That would be for other threads. 
 

IYO, what are the top three issues that cause members to question and possibly leave the Church?

Literalism/Fundamentalism

Not understanding the difference between science and religion

Fear of being different in a world growing more homogeneous daily

[SeekingUnderstanding]

49 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I did ask / was informed by no-longer-believers, came up with their list, and you gave me a down-vote anyway! LOL

Maybe my set of unbelievers believe differently than yours.

Your unbelievers said they left because they wanted “instant gratification?” Wow. I have a hard time believing that. 

[pogi]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

From what I've seen it's been 1) personal ideologies conflicting with church teachings (I think this especially impacts liberal saints), 2) getting pushback from church leadership when vocal about personal ideologies and ways they believe the church is wrong, and 3) learning historical things they didn't know and falling down that slippery slope to the conclusion that unknown history means the church is a big lie.

I agree with your points.  I honestly don't know if it affects liberals or the far right more, however.   The church takes many liberal stances on social issues including immigration, which many on the right strongly disagree with.  I think the biggest issue for liberals is the gay issue, but honestly that movement is far larger than the left and has encompassed or "converted" Americans from both sides significantly. 

Then there was this fiasco, and "exorcism of the far right" (a pretty big movement) from the Church:

 https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jimdalrympleii/mormon-church-ammon-bundy-alt-right-trump

I am sure that the church's partnering with the NAACP really ticked off a lot of alt-righters. 

I honestly don't think it is our doctrines that many on the left are repulsed by, but there may be a few like in regards to abortion.   We have a strong welfare program, we are compassionate on immigration, we support NAACP, the doctrines are environmentally friendly (even if many of our members aren't), we are super public health friendly with vaccination and masks, even on the gay issue we are fairly progressive in finding compromises between religious liberty and anti-discrimination laws (I understand that there is still a large gap that many find unacceptable though).  I think many just don't feel like they belong in the culture, which is extremely conservative.  I have seen one individual on these very forums (doesn't post much) suggest that the gospel is conservative and if you are not conservative you are not following the gospel.  It is that kind of attitude that makes liberals feel like they don't belong. Culturally, there is a gap for sure - unfortunately.   

I think the far left and far right are both equally repelled by the church.  We tend to be more friendly towards the middle ground on both sides doctrinally, while culturally being very conservative. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by pogi

[SeekingUnderstanding]

35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is just as dismissive of the experiences of those who have chosen to stay.
There is nothing that those who choose to leave faced that those who choose to stay haven't also faced.  It's not about blame.  It's about everyone facing the same challenges to their faith and people having different responses.
The idea that those who stay don't understand those who leave is reaching.

If you want to know why people leave, ask people who have left. If you want to know why people stay, ask people who stay. 

[Tacenda]

1. Finding they have their own compass and not needing to rely on a middleman. 

2. Finding church history that they weren't told about, because it was the meat not the milk. They should have been told of the meat at the beginning.

3. Choosing their loved one, child..friend..relative.. over the church's doctrine or policy prohibiting certain members from membership for choosing the same sex to love (marriage) or being trans etc. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree with your points.  I honestly don't know if it affects liberals or the far right more, however.   The church takes many liberal stances on social issues including immigration, which many on the right strongly disagree with.  I think the biggest issue for liberals is the gay issue, but honestly that movement is far larger than the left and has encompassed or "converted" Americans from both sides significantly. 

Then there was this fiasco, and "exorcism of the far right" (a pretty big movement) from the Church:

 https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jimdalrympleii/mormon-church-ammon-bundy-alt-right-trump

I am sure that the church's partnering with the NAACP really ticked off a lot of alt-righters. 

I honestly don't think it is our doctrines that many on the left are repulsed by, but there may be a few like in regards to abortion.   We have a strong welfare program, we are compassionate on immigration, we support NAACP, the doctrines are environmentally friendly (even if many of our members aren't), we are super public health friendly with vaccination and masks, even on the gay issue we are fairly progressive in finding compromises between religious liberty and anti-discrimination laws (I understand that there is still a large gap that many find unacceptable though).  I think many just don't feel like they belong in the culture, which is extremely conservative.  I have seen one individual on these very forums (doesn't post much) suggest that the gospel is conservative and if you are not conservative you are not following the gospel.  It is that kind of attitude that makes liberals feel like they don't belong. Culturally, there is a gap for sure - unfortunately.   

I think the far left and far right are both equally repelled by the church.  We tend to be more friendly towards the middle ground on both sides doctrinally, while culturally being very conservative. 

If we were talking only about the church leadership I would probably agree with you. But I think it's what happens on the local level that can be hard on liberals.   

There seems to be a lot more liberals who write about how horrible it is to attend church where the conservative "agenda" is sometimes taught over the pulpit and espoused in SS than conservatives who write about the reverse.  Even just singing patriotic songs in sunday school can be difficult for some liberals to deal with.  I hear often of someone leaving the church because of its teachings on SSM, women and the priesthood, nationalism, racism, etc.  

I haven't yet personally heard of anyone leaving the church because of its teachings on immigration or vaccines.  It seems like it's much easier for conservatives to ignore our liberal teachings than it is for liberals to ignore our conservative teachings. 

You are right in that I think our doctrines are fairly even between the two sides, and it seems like we have some liberals even in the quorum of the 12.  But I've heard way more against immigration in church than I have heard in support of it.  Part of this i'm sure is because I live in a conservative state where most members are conservative.  Maybe if I lived somewhere liberal I would see the opposite.

[JLHPROF]

46 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If you want to know why people leave, ask people who have left. If you want to know why people stay, ask people who stay. 

Both face the same issues.  It's their responses that are interesting, not their causes.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I did ask / was informed by no-longer-believers, came up with their list, and you gave me a down-vote anyway! LOL

Maybe my set of unbelievers believe differently than yours.

Could be.  You did not indicate that your list was based on queries.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Teancum

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

This is just as dismissive of the experiences of those who have chosen to stay.
There is nothing that those who choose to leave faced that those who choose to stay haven't also faced.  It's not about blame.  It's about everyone facing the same challenges to their faith and people having different responses.
The idea that those who stay don't understand those who leave is reaching.

Based on your list it seems you don't understand reasons why people leave.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The idea that those who stay don't understand those who leave is reaching.

I would be more prone to believe that from someone when their reasons for others leaving are not framed as failures of some kind.  I appreciate those who acknowledge that those who leave can do so with integrity and are doing their best to progress.

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Based on your list it seems you don't understand reasons why people leave.

What reason people leave doesn't fall into one of my categories?

[HappyJackWagon]

1- Judgement about the character of Joseph Smith and other prophets- historical issues surrounding polygamy, magic use, narrative embellishment, social/doctrinal drift

2- Disagreement with the church on Social issues (historical and current)- racial, LGBT, gender inequality

3- Doesn't meet personal/family spiritual needs

[MustardSeed]

IMO, the inability to shift from primary black and white Thought process into awareness and acceptance of nuance is the umbrella issue.  Broken down into topics, I’d say the top three could be 1. Overwhelm of expectations 2. Personal offense 3. Alienation due to unmet expectations of life and Gods involvement therein

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

If we were talking only about the church leadership I would probably agree with you. But I think it's what happens on the local level that can be hard on liberals.   

There seems to be a lot more liberals who write about how horrible it is to attend church where the conservative "agenda" is sometimes taught over the pulpit and espoused in SS than conservatives who write about the reverse.  Even just singing patriotic songs in sunday school can be difficult for some liberals to deal with.  I hear often of someone leaving the church because of its teachings on SSM, women and the priesthood, nationalism, racism, etc.  

I haven't yet personally heard of anyone leaving the church because of its teachings on immigration or vaccines.  It seems like it's much easier for conservatives to ignore our liberal teachings than it is for liberals to ignore our conservative teachings. 

You are right in that I think our doctrines are fairly even between the two sides, and it seems like we have some liberals even in the quorum of the 12.  But I've heard way more against immigration in church than I have heard in support of it.  Part of this i'm sure is because I live in a conservative state where most members are conservative.  Maybe if I lived somewhere liberal I would see the opposite.

It definitely seems true to me that the church is largely populated by the right wing politically, which would naturally make it less pleasant for the left wingers. When someone who is liberal continually experiences conservative leadership, and conservatism is lauded, and values don't align, it would be very easy to question one's place socially as well as theologically. Besides left/right ideologies are essentially a reflection of values. If one's values seem to be rejected by leadership and membership I agree that it would be hard to stay.

I definitely think there is a place in the church for extreme conservatism more than there is a place for extreme liberalism.

Edited July 8, 2021 by HappyJackWagon

[CV75]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Your unbelievers said they left because they wanted “instant gratification?” Wow. I have a hard time believing that. 

I can understand your dis/unbelief, but they said so directly in so many words (e.g. "I want / expect more x-y-z in my life right now and I'm not getting it here"), and I've summarized their remarks as "issue topics."

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Could be.  You did not indicate that your list was based on queries.

These were vastly more often volunteered to me by way of conversation. I'm not polling and keeping rack of responses in readiness for a thread like this, but no problem.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

If we were talking only about the church leadership I would probably agree with you. But I think it's what happens on the local level that can be hard on liberals.   

There seems to be a lot more liberals who write about how horrible it is to attend church where the conservative "agenda" is sometimes taught over the pulpit and espoused in SS than conservatives who write about the reverse.  Even just singing patriotic songs in sunday school can be difficult for some liberals to deal with.  I hear often of someone leaving the church because of its teachings on SSM, women and the priesthood, nationalism, racism, etc.  

I haven't yet personally heard of anyone leaving the church because of its teachings on immigration or vaccines.  It seems like it's much easier for conservatives to ignore our liberal teachings than it is for liberals to ignore our conservative teachings. 

We are in agreement for the most part.  The culture is definitely conservative and it can be hard for some to fit in when, as you say, when the political agenda is sometimes taught over the pulpit.  That can be repelling.  I do see some sifting of conservative members and others have began questioning over the church's stance on masking/vaccinations.  I have one friend who flat out admitted that they lost faith in the prophet after he supported the vaccine.  I know others have criticized over the church's position on masking and probably would have gone completely inactive if it wasn't for stay-at-home church which allowed them to remain mask free.  I think that many right-wingers are becoming so extreme in their conspiracy theories of Q-anon and vaccine/masking baloney that it will become increasingly difficult for them to remain members in a more centrist church.  Even the generally conservative culture/congregation are becoming to left for them.  It is not a small group either. 

In regards to local congregations being repulsive to an individuals political persuasion, here is what Ammon Bundy said in that regard (just to show that it is not just the left):

He said that "socialists had infiltrated the Mormon church."

“I know that our church on the lower levels, the mid levels, has been infiltrated by these same people, but not the higher levels,”

Bundy questioned if "Mormons could still trust their local leaders".

"Whenever anybody in the church or out of the church is trying to infringe upon your agency, then they have become an enemy to God,” Bundy said of the faith.

You can see how requiring masks at church and compromising with anti-discrimination laws might cause someone like Bundy to see the church as an "enemy to God".  It is only a matter of time before such extreme beliefs will push one out of the church completely.  I think there are many, many conservatives who are increasingly becoming uneasy with the more progressive position the prophet is taking.   While many may not be open about it in church because it is not socially acceptable, their Facebook page tells a totally different story.  I think these issues are festering under the surface. They are just not as vocal and direct about it - for cultural reasons - but it is festering.  They will never mention the prophet or the church, but there are certainly indirect attacks and blatant opposition to the position of the church.

How sad is it to see converts as "infiltrating the church".  Shouldn't we be rejoicing over their membership, regardless of their political persuasion?  I highly question whether many in the right-wing end of the church will endure.  I think the exodus has already begun.

Edited July 8, 2021 by pogi