Top three issues

[Calm]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

he idea that those who stay don't understand those who leave is reaching

Some do, some don’t..:just like the reverse of some leaving can’t understand why others stay. 
 

Think that side of things is more personality based in how willing and capable one is at seeing things from another’s POV…always an approximation, but some approach the ‘reality’ of the other’s internal experience much more than others.

And CV’s point that reasons to leave are not always the same as causes is a good point, imo. Sometimes individuals rely more on the narratives they hear to explain their own behaviour rather than consistent, persistent self-examination…which should include imo getting feedback from others, since we all are prone to rewriting our memories and group sourcing is likely, imo, to help us get closer to the truth than relying solely on ourselves. 

[Meadowchik]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Some do, some don’t..:just like the reverse of some leaving can’t understand why others stay. 
 

Think that side of things is more personality based in how willing and capable one is at seeing things from another’s POV…always an approximation, but some approach the ‘reality’ of the other’s internal experience much more than others.

And CV’s point that reasons to leave are not always the same as causes is a good point, imo. Sometimes individuals rely more on the narratives they hear to explain their own behaviour rather than consistent, persistent self-examination…which should include imo getting feedback from others, since we all are prone to rewriting our memories and group sourcing is likely, imo, to help us get closer to the truth than relying solely on ourselves. 

Sometimes various experiences can teach a similar lesson.

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, Teancum said:

I would suggest you might want to ask those who leave/left.  The reasons can be numerous and differ for many and varies. Unfortunately may of the comments from the  believers here I believe miss the mark and reflect their own confirmation bias and need to deflect to blame reasons.  Blaming the leave taker is a mechanism the believer uses to maintain testimony and faith. If the believers really want to know then they should ask and listen honestly.

The question is for anyone who wishes to respond. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If you want to know why people leave, ask people who have left. If you want to know why people stay, ask people who stay. 

I know a number of folks who have left the Church and we have discussed their reasons. 

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I know a number of folks who have left the Church and we have discussed their reasons. 

Curious to know why you started this topic. Wouldn't this possibly cause someone to wonder about the church, and possibly cause someone to doubt?

[mfbukowski]

56 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Curious to know why you started this topic. Wouldn't this possibly cause someone to wonder about the church, and possibly cause someone to doubt?

What do you think this board does every day?

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I know a number of folks who have left the Church and we have discussed their reasons. 

I would like to hear from you what some of them have shared with you as their reasons..  

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I would like to hear from you what some of them have shared with you as their reasons..  

Why, when you can hear from such people directly?

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Why, when you can hear from such people directly?

I think it is also important to understand how those who still believe perceive those who have left. As we can see from this thread, that group has a variety of opinions too.

[Meadowchik]

13 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I think it is also important to understand how those who still believe perceive those who have left. As we can see from this thread, that group has a variety of opinions too.

Sure. That is a different question however, not an equivalent one.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Curious to know why you started this topic. Wouldn't this possibly cause someone to wonder about the church, and possibly cause someone to doubt?

Some church leaders I know are planning q&a sessions for youth and young adults. I want to present them with some issues they might be asked to address. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

And CV’s point that reasons to leave are not always the same as causes is a good point, imo. Sometimes individuals rely more on the narratives they hear to explain their own behaviour rather than consistent, persistent self-examination…which should include imo getting feedback from others, since we all are prone to rewriting our memories and group sourcing is likely, imo, to help us get closer to the truth than relying solely on ourselves. 

I think this is spot on, but also applies to those who stay. The reasons they give to stay / convert do not necessarily equal the causes. 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I would like to hear from you what some of them have shared with you as their reasons..  

Not in any order.

1.  Too restrictive, ie., WoW, sexual activity, politics.

2. Internet anti-Mormon materials.

3. Gay etc. issues

4. social justice issues

5. Feel no need for religion of any sort

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Some church leaders I know are planning q&a sessions for youth and young adults. I want to present them with some issues they might be asked to address. 

That's great, because sometimes the local leadership don't even know what's in the Gospel Topic Essays. Thanks for your help in this, they will need a heads up I'm sure. 

[HappyJackWagon]

31 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not in any order.

1.  Too restrictive, ie., WoW, sexual activity, politics.

2. Internet anti-Mormon materials.

3. Gay etc. issues

4. social justice issues

5. Feel no need for religion of any sort

I think there's truth to all of those reasons but I think there are underlying issues that dig deeper into the "why" these things bother people.

Someone mentioned earlier that it comes down to a lack of trust in church leaders and I think at the most basic level that is the core issue behind most of these things.

I've seen so many young people turn away from religion altogether and for many it boils down to trust (not just the LDS church). They don't trust that church leaders adequately reflect God's will through policies and doctrines. They sense inherent unfairness in organized religion that they don't see the value in being affiliated or trusting someone else's word about God's will over their own. Or worse, they do believe God is behind the unfairness and can't find themselves worshipping such a capricious God.

There is a local church with a very liberal pastor who has been trying hard to reach out to the LGBTQ community, offering services, a place to gather, activities etc but so far there has been no noticeable success. Members of the LGBTQ community stay away and are unwilling to give the outreach efforts a chance because they don't trust organized religion in general.

[CA Steve]

41 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Feel no need for religion of any sort

My experience with the younger generations is that it is not so much they feel no need for religion as it is they feel no need for organized religion. Recently a 30 something niece of mine, B.I.C. raised in the church and totally inactive now, told me she did not need someone to tell her how God felt about her. I think this is a result, in part, of social networks, which expose people to a much wider collection of religious and spiritual beliefs and the realization that individual religious organizations are not all that different.

 

On Edit. I hate it when someone posts my point better than I, one minute before I do. 

🤬

Edited July 9, 2021 by CA Steve

[HappyJackWagon]

18 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

My experience with the younger generations is that it is not so much they feel no need for religion as it is they feel no need for organized religion. Recently a 30 something niece of mine, B.I.C. raised in the church and totally inactive now, told me she did not need someone to tell her how God felt about her. I think this is a result, in part, of social networks, which expose people to a much wider collection of religious and spiritual beliefs and the realization that individual religious organizations are not all that different.

 

On Edit. I hate it when someone posts my point better than I, one minute before I do. 

🤬

IMO- this is a direct lesson from the First Vision. Joseph didn't trust the religionists of his day. He didn't feel he needed an intermediary between him and God, so he took it directly to God.

So...one could argue that Joseph Smith is the inspiration for people turning away from organized religion in the LDS church  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not in any order.

1.  Too restrictive, ie., WoW, sexual activity, politics.

2. Internet anti-Mormon materials.

3. Gay etc. issues

4. social justice issues

5. Feel no need for religion of any sort

Would you say that these tie in to Politics (1, 3, 4), Materialism (5) and Instant Gratification (1, 2 -- see https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2012/02/29/millennials-will-benefit-and-suffer-due-to-their-hyperconnected-lives/  for the Internet connection on this, and I include instant validation of bias with instant gratification).

Edited July 9, 2021 by CV75

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

IMO- this is a direct lesson from the First Vision. Joseph didn't trust the religionists of his day. He didn't feel he needed an intermediary between him and God, so he took it directly to God.

So...one could argue that Joseph Smith is the inspiration for people turning away from organized religion in the LDS church  

Very true! Joseph doubted the current religious crowds. I guess every generation moves on from the old and become pioneers themselves. 

[MrShorty]

59 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Someone mentioned earlier that it comes down to a lack of trust in church leaders and I think at the most basic level that is the core issue behind most of these things.

I would double down on this. One of the interesting things I got out of David Ostler's Bridges was that a high percentage of those in faith crisis did not trust leaders (either local or general) to be able to help with their faith crisis issues. I might even go so far as to suggest that answering specific q&a questions that are submitted to the Bishop during such a meeting is a secondary goal -- secondary to the goal of fostering trust that this Bishop might be a good resource for those in faith crisis. I know there can be a lot of different facets to trusting a church leader with these kinds of questions, so it is not necessarily an easy thing. IMO, no matter how good your answers are to the specific questions submitted, if those in the audience asking themselves those questions come out of the meeting feeling less inclined rather than more inclined to trust the Bishop, then I think the meeting is a net loss.

[2BizE]

Here are some good resources for your question.  This includes a link to a Faith Crisis Report and presentation presented to church leaders.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/why-do-people-leave-the-lds-church/

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Why, when you can hear from such people directly?

Shouldn't this be obvious?  Everyone has different experiences.  I wanted to hear what people had told him.

I shared what people have told me.  But some people just won't talk.  So you can't get real answers from everyone.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think this is spot on, but also applies to those who stay. The reasons they give to stay / convert do not necessarily equal the causes. 

To borrow from the OP, what do you think are the top 3 "non-issues" (perhaps better put, resolutions or conclusions) that cause members to trust and possibly stay in the Church? 

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

My experience with the younger generations is that it is not so much they feel no need for religion as it is they feel no need for organized religion. Recently a 30 something niece of mine, B.I.C. raised in the church and totally inactive now, told me she did not need someone to tell her how God felt about her.

 

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

IMO- this is a direct lesson from the First Vision. Joseph didn't trust the religionists of his day. He didn't feel he needed an intermediary between him and God, so he took it directly to God.

 

This "no man between me and God" philosophy becomes ever more popular in our current self centered society.  Knowing your own truth, personal power etc, etc.

I may be alone in my views, but I consider this at the least problematic, at worst a direct contradiction to gospel principles revealed by God.  Through all eternity there will always be someone above us and someone below us.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

To borrow from the OP, what do you think are the top 3 "non-issues" (perhaps better put, resolutions or conclusions) that cause members to trust and possibly stay in the Church? 

Perhaps a new thread?