Conference discussion

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Lots of scholars (including me and you) enjoy thinking and discussing theology, and we even do it occasionally here on this board.  But that is not what the Gospel or the LDS Church are all about.  "Mormon" culture is a way of life and a kind of ethnicity, not a form of systematic theology.  Praxis or orthopraxy versus orthodoxy.  That is the sociological or anthropological reality.  So, much as I like and admire Blake and his teacher David Paulsen, I think that Terryl Givens has a better, more realistic take on the question.

 

Oh yeah!!

For some reason I can only do short posts otherwise I get a 403 nasty message

[Scott Lloyd]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

Sorry for the late response.  I am sure you have probably moved on by now.

All we have is our perspective of the elephant (THE Truth).  Though we have parts of the elephant revealed to us, we still interpret it from our perspective.  As the poem says, "an elephant is much like a rope" or a wall, or a spear, or a fan, etc., Or, Christ put it, "the kingdom of heaven is like unto..."  Our perspective, and thus truth, is limited in mortality. It is veiled. It is unwhole. We only see in part in mortality. 

So, if we can't call our perspective truth, then truth is elusive in mortality.  I don't see any harm in calling my experience truth, so long as I distinguish it from that which I can only have faith in mortality in - THE Truth.  My testimony is based on my personal perspective and experience, that is "my truth".  It is ever evolving.  It is organic and growing.  How much of what I "know" will remain intact as I perceive it now is impossible to know.  What I though I knew yesterday is not what I know today.  I don't expect that process to stop until I know all things.  My interpretation of the lines and precepts that I have been given might expand and change as more of the picture is revealed.  

In other words, that which we call "truth" in mortality, shall be replaced by a holistic and perfect perspective of all things when all truths will be circumscribed into one great whole.  That which we think we know, "shall vanish away" into a much more grand vista of the whole.  Our mortal perspective is like focusing on a small group of pixels in a picture of almost infinite pixels.  We try to make sense of that handful of pixels by saying things like "the kingdom of heaven is like unto...", but that is the best we can do.  

I have faith in THE Truth, but until I see the whole picture, all I have is my limited perspective of it.  TRUTH is untenable and unattainable in mortality.  It is a matter of faith as we look at it through a dark vail. 

You said it when you said all you have is your “limited perspective” of the truth. Perspective and truth are not synonyms. Your perspective is, by definition, malleable; truth is not. It is independent of your perspective of it. The reverse is not the case. Your perspective is or should be dependent on the truth. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Well adieu my friends

 I guess i have been banned or something

403 VERBOTEN

No biggie

The 403 usually means some word or phrase is screened and found wanting. It has nothing to do with you individually. Look for something that is a different context might be controversial or something a spambot might say and edit it a bit. Usually it is easy to find the problem. I have had it happen to me a few times.

Edited April 8, 2019 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

God is a somber gentleman. 

No, but he appreciates sobriety in his formal meetings. Outside of that he is more a life of the party kind of person.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Maidservant said:

It made me sad that people's pure childlike praise is not wanted.  At least the first time it happened, it felt very spontaneous.  I felt like a much better church meeting.  Job 38:7 The morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy.

Because there are forms of praise that are not disruptive in a formal meeting. I found it more childish then child like. They were ooohhhing and ahhhing at every temple last time.

Edited April 8, 2019 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because there are forms of praise that are not disruptive in a formal meeting. I found it more childish then child like. They were ooohhhing and ahhhing at every temple last time.

I thought it weird when during one or two of the talks the audience laugh several times before the speaker finishes a story or thought, and it seemed to be serious, not meant to be funny.

[let’s roll]

12 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Elder Renlund’s admonision that we must act before receiving blessings comes seems to be a very different than Elder Uchtdorf’s teaching on the subject: 

 

Also - I’m still unsure what blessings are besides some kind of eternal sky miles.

Dissipation of fear and doubt, to name a few.  Or stated differently, courage and certainty.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The 403 usually means some word or phrase is screened and found wanting. It has nothing to do with you individually. Look for something that is a different context might be controversial or something a spambot might say and edit it a bit. Usually it is easy to find the problem. I have had it happen to me a few times.

I have only not been able to figure out specific one though it took some time on occasion.  That once was a quote that must have had some weird coding in it. Because it was harmless in itself.  It can even be a problem in a link's name.

Usually it is something obvious like name of a drug or saying "sex" or "sexual" too many times or with a sensitive combination.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Ensign February 1973:

https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1973/02/strengthening-the-patriarchal-order-in-the-home?lang=eng

I’m not sure the teaching of who receives authoritative revelation has always been so egalitarian.

Timely advice then and now. Dads today need to step up their game in the righteous way described in the article just as they did then and in the decades before. When understood correctly, the patriarchal order is the best family organization. After all, it’s patterned after Heavenly Father’s family.

Nothing in the article says the husband receives more or better revelation than the wife. That certainly was not the way Sister Gui and I were instructed when we were married three months before it was published, nor has it been our experience that she was not my equal in this regard. She has received many crucial revelations pertaining to our family...one just today during Conference. I’m certain we are not unique in this.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[SouthernMo]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Timely advice then and now. Dads today need to step up their game in the righteous way described in the article just as they did then and in the decades before. When understood correctly, the patriarchal order is the best family organization. After all, it’s patterned after Heavenly Father’s family.

Nothing in the article says the husband receives more or better revelation than the wife. That certainly was not the way Sister Gui and I were instructed when we were married three months before it was published, nor has it been our experience that she was not my equal in this regard. She has received many crucial revelations pertaining to our family...one just today during Conference. I’m certain we are not unique in this.

Good for you both!  So do you model the pattern in the article?  You are the bishop, and she is a counselor to you?

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You said it when you said all you have is your “limited perspective” of the truth. Perspective and truth are not synonyms. Your perspective is, by definition, malleable; truth is not. It is independent of your perspective of it. The reverse is not the case. Your perspective is or should be dependent on the truth. 

All I have is my perspective/experience.  I can’t escape it.  So, if truth is “independent” of my perspective/experience...you see the problem.

I believe in the capital T Truth you speak of, but just understand that my perspective/experience is my truth.  If all truth is absolute, then it is absolutely and universally true that sushi is delicious.  My wife seems to disagree however.  Maybe we will have to wait for God to settle the matter about who’s truth is actually in-line  with THE Truth, if there can only be one absolute and universal truth and not “my truth” and “your truth”.  

Relative truth is all we can know with certainty in mortality.  Everything else is based on faith and is unattainable.  So, if you are going to strip me of “my truth”, which is based on my perspective/experience then there can be no truth that I know of in mortality.

All that I know is that which I perceive/experience - that is the basis of my testimony. So, if truth is “independent” of that, then I don’t/can’t  know it.

Edited April 8, 2019 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

All I have is my perspective/experience.  I can’t escape it.  So, if truth is “independent” of my perspective/experience...you see the problem.

I believe in the capital T Truth you speak of, but just understand that my perspective/experience is my truth.  If all truth is absolute, then it is absolutely and universally true that sushi is delicious.  My wife seems to disagree however.  Maybe we will have to wait for God to settle the matter about who’s truth is actually in-line  with THE Truth, if there can only be one absolute and universal truth and not “my truth” and “your truth”.  

Relative truth is all we can know with certainty in mortality.  Everything else is based on faith and is unattainable.  So, if you are going to strip me of “my truth”, which is based on my perspective/experience then there can be no truth that I know of in mortality.

All that I know is that which I perceive/experience - that is the basis of my testimony. So, if truth is “independent” of that, then I don’t/can’t  know it.

I’m not stripping you of your perspective. I just don’t agree with you calling it your “truth”. I believe that confuses the concept of truth, and it doesn’t help to differentiate with capital and lower-case letters. Your perspective might approach and even coincide with truth, but in the end, it is your perspective. 

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not stripping you of your perspective. I just don’t agree with you calling it your “truth”. I believe that confuses the concept of truth, and it doesn’t help to differentiate with capital and lower-case letters. Your perspective might approach and even coincide with truth, but in the end, it is your perspective. 

No, you are not stripping me of my perspective, but you are stripping the world of knowable truth.  All that I know is what I experience, and what I experience is my perspective.  There is no truth that I can know beyond "my truth" which is my testimony, which is my experience/perspective.  You are basically telling me that I can't say that "I know the church is true", because that is entirely based on my experience/perspective.  What is truth and how can you know it except through experience which gives you your perspective and is the foundation of knowledge?

Edited April 8, 2019 by pogi

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Good for you both!  So do you model the pattern in the article?  You are the bishop, and she is a counselor to you?

I so appreciate the article in last month's ensign that reminded everyone that in a family, there is no president and vice president (or bishop and counselor).  Both husband and wife are complete equal in every way.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, you are not stripping me of my perspective, but you are stripping the world of knowable truth.  All that I know is what I experience, and what I experience is my perspective.  There is no truth that I can know beyond "my truth" which is my testimony, which is my experience/perspective.  You are basically telling me that I can't say that "I know the church is true", because that is entirely based on my experience/perspective.  What is truth and how can you know it except through experience which gives you your perspective and is the foundation of knowledge?

I think Mark was correct in saying this is a matter of semantics, and the discussion has become tedious to me, so I’m stepping away from it and leaving you with the last word. 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think Mark was correct in saying this is a matter of semantics, and the discussion has become tedious to me, so I’m stepping away from it and leaving you with the last word. 

I agree that it is largely semantics.  Thanks for the discussion.

[MiserereNobis]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well adieu my friends

 I guess i have been banned or something

403 VERBOTEN

No biggie

I've had this happen when I mention something unmentionable in my post (such as that dreaded card game p*ker, or b*er, or other such things). Maybe your post was deemed vulgar and profane.

[rodheadlee]

So it's settled finding the truth it's like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall.😛

[ALarson]

23 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So it's settled finding the truth it's like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall.😛

Same as trying to define doctrine.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've had this happen when I mention something unmentionable in my post (such as that dreaded card game p*ker, or b*er, or other such things). Maybe your post was deemed vulgar and profane.

It also happens with some drug names too.  Probably to help cut down on spammers.

[member10_1]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree that it is largely semantics.  Thanks for the discussion.

Well...I think the difference is that you don’t confuse religious belief with absolute truth. You understand the difference between a description of sacred experience and the experience itself and understand the limitations of those descriptions. Because of this I think you’d be less likely to condemn others for using different words to describe sacred experiences, just as you wouldn’t censure others for using different words to describe the experience of gazing upon a surreal and beautiful sunset. I also think you’d be more concerned with communing with God than worrying and quibbling about the “correct” words to use to describe God.

I think it makes a huge difference to you and those around you. 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh yeah!!

For some reason I can only do short posts otherwise I get a 403 nasty message

I used to get those when the "glitches' first started... I think i cleared out my cache and the problem went away. Haven't had it since.

[MustardSeed]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I so appreciate the article in last month's ensign that reminded everyone that in a family, there is no president and vice president (or bishop and counselor).  Both husband and wife are complete equal in every way.

I got pretty annoyed with that article.  Then I saw it was written in the 70s.  

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I got pretty annoyed with that article.  Then I saw it was written in the 70s.  

You got annoyed with the article in March's Ensign?

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You got annoyed with the article in March's Ensign?

Oh,no.  The article linked in this thread that suggested the man should be like the bishop and the wife a counselor,because  “can you imagine two bishops?” 

I was like, yeah.  I can.